bailouts that were spent you see the money is there it just gets wasted if the money stops getting thrown away and start getting spent or well planned infrastructure then the infrastructure will start paying for itself rocket infrastructure creates wealth so don't fear the infrastructure cliff just stop wasting money or allowed politicians to waste money and everything will turn out to be just fine but that's just my opinion.

about international landlords in the very heart of moscow. this is. a low in welcome across town where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle but john kerry expresses shuttling through the middle east in search of peace once again a u.s. administration claims to be a fair broker to resolve the israel palestine conflict after forty four years of occupation and colonization of palestinian land what can we expect if anything from the obama administration is it time to reckon with the reality on the ground that is the one state solution. to cross-talk the john kerry visit to the middle east i'm joined by. dina friedman

in washington she is a professor at the american university school of international science also in washington we have jason isaacson he is the american jewish committee director of government and international affairs and in philadelphia we cross the susan she is a writer political commentator and author of the book mornings in janine ok crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want susan visit by the u.s. secretary of state to the middle east anything new did you hear anything new anything promising. unfortunately no peter and frankly i think we need to stop talking about this fantasy peace process. you know twenty some years ago palestinians made an unprecedented compromise to relinquish aren't legal and historic right to over seventy eight percent of our historic homeland with the understanding that an independent palestinian state would be established in the remaining twenty two percent in this time where the while this process was going

on you know of course it was turned out not to be a peace process at all but instead it's become. a process of ethnic cleansing it's been a process whereby israel has continued this cast of natural resources belonging to palestinians principally land and water it's been a process of israel continuing to build the infrastructure of this israeli apartheid of israeli only roads jewish only housing color coded license plates and list permits checkpoints and so forth so i think you know i mean everybody everybody knows this two state idea is a lot i and for some reason everybody keeps engaging in this ridiculous discourse and it frankly just serves israeli imperialist interests of. wiping i thought the

map and one only needs to look at the map to see the truth in what i'm saying because as of now ok let's let's get in counterpoint let's get a counterpoint jason start home price in general and i'm sure you don't agree with that go ahead peter thank you for. almost every sentence but thank you very much for giving me this opportunity look the palestinians should have a state and they should have it in that land and they had an opportunity to have the creation of the state of israel in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight when the un partition plan was adopted in the one nine hundred forty s. it provided for a palestinian state alongside israel the palestinians and the arab states rejected that went to war against israel let's remember the facts so yes there should be a palestinian state there are palestinian arabs living in that land they can have a state when they return to the bargaining table and negotiate for a state but to talk about apartheid to talk about replaces this and that colonization is just nonsense i mean the fact is that israel has a right to exist in peace and security with its neighbors the palestinians have

rejected that the arab states have backed them up and gone to war against israel it's time to get to the bargaining table and put that history behind us again it go ahead jump in the way and what we have very different points of view here ok so i. mine probably is that most of the merger between the two. i agree that there have been problems with futile attempts at peace and that the two state solution is looking more and more blurry and to some impossible i think that it's if we just look at historical facts and figures and dates we will see quite different narratives about who said what to whom on what date and where where the story begins and that's problematic i think we need to move forward addressing the historical grievances not ignoring the fact that there are historical grievances serious ones that have not been addressed but there are a number of different accounts of what so in other words. when we talk about

historical homelands we obviously have two competing claims to a place to the same place i think though. one state while many jews would probably most likely disagree with this and many palestinians would prefer that solution i don't see it as a viable one at this point but i personally don't. don't see a problem with talking about it as a longer term possibility i just don't see it happening as the first stage in anything and the two state solution isn't by no means a perfect solution it also doesn't do justice to the palestinians in israel it's problematic in many ways but i'm not sure there's anything better and as someone who is concerned with that region and actually grew up in that region. giving up hope that there is any solution would be a really ok magic thing i think susan we're going to go from here where do we go from here. give me a roadmap well look i wanted to make something very clear of the three of us to end

this conversation i'm the only one with personal familial lynage dating back centuries. the only reason for example jason you know thinks he even has a say in the matter is the fact is his notion of jewish in title meant which is the problem i mean this you know where we are the indigenous population he thinks that we need to talk with our oppressors with with the white americans and white europeans who who feel entitled to to the resources belonging to the brown people and palestine and frankly you know i am i don't exist or that i reject that that's my that is my homeland that's my homeland and i don't need i don't need to negotiate with people like him to support basic human rights i don't need to negotiate for freedom pal the citizens should not have to do that. and i do assure you they have their boots at our necks and they're asking us to negotiate and the

irony is that we did precisely that we tried doing that and made an unprecedented historic compromise relinquishing seventy eight percent of palestine and you know it's it's ridiculous to talk about a two state solution now look at the map for god's sakes and besides that i mean israel one successive israeli government after another has affirmed know it no uncertain terms that that they will not allow the emergence of a viable palestinian state i mean this is their words and they can take. everybody . we're going to talk about it to what is going to. keep track of all of the things that have been served and counter every one of them it's not possible they're coming thick and fast but look. i'm not negotiating on behalf of exclusion. i'm not negotiating on behalf of israel i'm not negotiating on behalf of any state i'm simply demonstrating the fact that there have been jews in it is

the jewish homeland for thousands of years to somehow pretend that there is no jewish connection to that land when we have so much evidence or do we want to live very intensely if we just found the body or even just look at what impact this could have been james and you know i'm not so i'm not just recently susan susan excuse me i'm not saying that there have been. doing another one of your research points that have your line where you want to go to james i don't have a clue to what i'm going to be you say what you're looking at more legitimate than any other claims peter peter i'm sorry you're going to think you know what you should have been in egypt for thousands of years you want to take egypt to ok dina jump in go ahead no this is a well i think if you're going to be fair time do you do despair i think you disappear behind the story of a very fair time and there are completing competing claims here obviously and some people think they're totally unequal. things that obviously

personally i grew up in israel and many most of my family and friends who are there at this point in life have no other that's where they were either born or raised usually born and they have no other. no other citizenship or place to go either so in other words regardless of the fact that there have been some. historical injustices and maybe they need their own people i think that is that they don't get to kick up now. yeah i agree if you know what i mean i actually think that it's not the words in my mouth don't put words in my mouth that night didn't i didn't say that i said i think one of the things again we have tensions between what our collective collective rights if we look at nationalism as a collective a movement and collective rights of people then every collective that claims it's a nationalism should have similar rights but regardless of this i mean it's a huge topic i won't have time to get into now but i agree that. many obstacles

have been put up by many israeli governments as far as actually establishing a two state solution or a palestinian state i think again further back in history there were there were different parties who refused different international initiatives for various reasons why the arabs are ject it initially and the jews rejected things afterwards for all kinds of reasons the point of the matter is that there are people that on many stop this language susan weigh in. susan go ahead and you have no use for the same reason as i have objections as well but i want to go away from your straw is such mendaciously like lazy and. i mean this kind of this kind of language makes it sound like that you know these are just two equal parties who are disagreeing you need to stop doing that it's this honest this is a situation of ethnic cleansing palestinians are literally being wiped off the map and you know issues and we are never going to get i'm wondering is not all of you when i talk about here for i don't know what is there in iraq about racism we're

talking about two peoples with oh you know it's clearly just want to time give us a little connection to want to sung about but that's the reality of somehow didn't are that there was a jewish connection to the wound of israel is just a complete fabrication and the archaeological evidence aside from the right i'm so sad for him but it was so in my mouth you around the world know you got it down but it works in my shows and i know we just did denying the reality all right susan before we go to the story so you know nothing is going to work marshmallow in the national spotlight such as you point out of my mouth you know i never said there was no jewish connection what i'm saying is that there is no white european white american connection to that land and that includes you jews have been all over the not for on you're not in this little or i'm not going to encourage or someone you are not if i just forgot your take egypt or iraq for that matter so so stop this mendacious talk like as if we know we're never there yes right now those of years of jewish hands there is some it is all right i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to one short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion

on israel and palestine stay with r.t. . we've received. that's a meteorite. ten thousand tons told through space towards russia. with the power. of a nuclear bomb. should

have been sky full on r.t. . you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. in the news a secret lover touring to mccurry was able to build the new rules most sophisticated robots which will unfortunately doesn't give a dollar amount anything tunes mission to teach music creation why it should care about humans and world this is why you should care only on the dog call.

international in the very heart of moscow. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you we're discussing john kerry's visit to the middle east.

ok mike you go back to again in washington is the united states a fair broker in this case in this conflict i think to assume that the united states is either neutral and by totally fair is a mistake it isn't it hasn't been historically. different parties feel palestinians what agree with this more probably israel is it's mixed. but i'm not sure again what their alternative would be because if we go back to our previous discussion we could have parties pursue what they see as absolute justice for their party but they that would probably entail some. injustices to other parties as well so i'm not saying that we need to ignore everything that happened on the contrary what happened thus far is extremely important but if we if we are assuming that nobody's leaving that area and that we're stuck there together and we need to find something that reasonably accounts for all of the injustices that have been going

on and that includes israel stopping to do or starting to do a lot of things i'm not the one that. we needs we need some kind of external help and israeli feelings about us involvement are mixed you have the government that's still trying to play its usual games like various governments and. but you have the public that's also split i think of obama's speech spoke to a lot of israelis i know that on the in the peace camps which are broader than you usually know it did resonate but at the same time between most israelis understanding that there needs to be a two state solution and wanting the u.s. to help that happen and between the israeli governments actually doing it as it's not exactly the same thing right jason how do you react to the u.s. is that if i make you jason. thank you very much i think thank you peter i disagree somewhat i think that when president obama visited israel last month and also the

west bank a very important visit to ramallah he made statements that were significant to both populations and i think he identified with the palestinian desire and you know jason for bob is a good speech maker he was really should give a speech but what about policy look to finish what i see though it's a good speech we all agree but what about i go ahead i think the policy peter the policies pursued by this administration have been the correct ones have demonstrated solidarity and understanding of israel's special security needs considering by the way the incredibly unstable neighborhood in which it. exists and let's not forget please the fact that neighboring israel is syria worse seventy thousand people have been killed in the last two years with frankly unfortunately the support of the russian government the assad regime about it so let's not forget the security of the middle important decisions trying to destroy people israel has

again please so again we again and again this administration is that we should talk so i guess israel's role is a series of his message to the program. for peace and their desire for peace and a place to you peter found a commitment of successive governments to a two state solution to a two state solution susan jump in this is not they have not been pulled they have not been pulled. over you have again and again and commitment to a two state solution and which in which they continue to steal more and more palestinian land that's i mean this is it's the palestinians just coming back to the same turning going to turn to speak susan and you know you know i was just giving her a piece of good i mean you know that's why you like both of your guests peter are using this this very mundane just language i mean on the one hand you know jason jason talks about israel special security needs in fact israel has bombed and attacked unprovoked nearly every one of its neighbors and i mean it has it is the

one that has been creating security issues throughout the middle east for decades and it also ignored. an offer from all arab nations in the region to make peace with it if it would simply comply with international law visa vi resolution two forty two and you know and which would allow for the establishment of a palestinian state along the sixty seven borders and of course it ignored it so the security is going to be ready for israel's security issue comes from its own greed and to and of other people's resources and fact. really you know there is no way i mean it's so even though you've been asked the question whether or not the u.s. is an honest broker i mean everybody knows it's not i mean and obama just allowed for another forty billion dollar aid package to israel i mean this is this is on top of the aid we've been giving them for decades and this comes at

a time when american schools are closing throughout the country i mean it's it's outrageous the level of. the level of influence that israel exerts on american policies both domestically and foreign policies and you know the other the other mendacious languages and the. speaking original terms that oh hey well israel needs needs to stop a few things in there it's not perfect whatever but let's just say what those things are it really is a brutal savage military power that has inflicted the most technological persistent violence against principally unarmed indigenous population and let's talk about sort of a sudden decision you know the other little problem you have to each that they need to that they need to address you want to jump in go ahead you know what do you think this is this is. going to change is not something. that is just an issue in

the region top you know you won't get any argument you won't get any argument from me about about brutality of arab nations or whatever so you know what but that's not that's not a legitimate life ok well other people are doing it when he may do it as a jury so i'm going to it's because because frankly of the other frankly of the sort of the states in the region that have respected human rights considering the enormous challenges that they have faced rocket assaults from from the south rocket assault from the north instability and all of its borders terrorism that has killed hundreds and hundreds of israelis over the years to see what's new and quite. just getting larger the reality of the law is a reality. dino jump in i mean i don't want to say air time for everyone go ahead. ok so i mean i'm not i'm not arguing with with many of the things that are most of the things that susan is saying about israel's actions i have serious problems with israel's actions however at the same time there are also israelis who have. come up

i know it's taken them forever to react to the arab peace initiative which wasn't perfect but was a good starting point at least to talk about there is that there is the counter israeli peace initiative which people have been trying you know israeli peace initiative more recently there are things like that in a vanishing of other other efforts that show that israelis and palestinians and other arabs some of them can actually sit and think through some of these issues and are not a do not accept the situation or israeli actions etc the problem is again that the governments have not adopted these and not enough from the grassroots are pushing enough to adopt these changes but at the same time again even though i agree with many of the things susan is saying in principle i also happen to be israeli and i also happen to know what a lot of israeli people go through it doesn't matter that it might be israeli

governments fault nevertheless there are millions of people in israel as well actually jews and arabs who go through who who also are victims of the situation and whatever solution we come to doesn't need to. obliterate palestinian rights or palestinian identity by any means but it also has to take into account that there are there are also other millions of people there most of whom actually would prefer to live in peace with their neighbors we have leaderships not just the current one but but made sure that i don't know if. that's the problem the problem is you can't you can't live in peace that's the point in trying to go back to have jewish entitle meant and privilege at the same time that that's part of that for the that is that is precisely the problem that. yes if he really needs to be that's your trainees want to listen a security report population that's going to privilege economic privilege psychological social privilege to people just yet through being jewish so you can't have it both ways israelis who have

a history of being ok great and i don't have this could you say what's going to change then fair time jason thank you very much peter i think good israelis who have been attacked over the decades by their neighbors need to have security and a peace process that produces security between the peoples is the guarantor that we are asking for and in fact if the arab peace initiative had been presented in a way that demonstrated its understanding of israel's security needs and meeting israel at the table instead of dumping the arab peace initiative on israel from afar i think it would have had a different reaction but the fact is that there is growing as dana says there is growing room and or understanding within israel that the possibility the possibilities do exist if the arab states come to the table with if it should be if the palestinians with their backing come to the table with israel there is a definite cross-section of agreement within the israeli public that this is the way forward is the only way forward again i'm going to remind you that now it's going to you know you have time i don't mean to say not going to answers for freedom please edina ok i would say so some of the israelis back to what jason was

just saying some of the israelis would say would frame that differently so the people who have proposed some of these agreements don't put the main onus on palestinians they take they take their responsibility as well and put it also largely on the israeli government so it's so there are different opinions among israelis but those who are pursuing agreements are very strongly. also acknowledge that israeli government has been a main ops israeli governments have been a main obstacle not the only one but a main one but back to the issue of privilege i mean it's not enough israelis are what you want thank you all right i like to think we have thirty seconds left i'm going to give the last word to susan is last word to susan in thirty seconds. and you know i mean it. that's easy to say that isn't necessary isn't really true because israelis have been electing one right wing government after another putting one word criminal at the helm after another and you know what as an indigenous violated for example we should not the world should not demand that we sit down and

negotiate with our oppressors for basic freedom and basic human rights and jason's only only reason that he thinks that he has any say in this matter is simply born of his his sense of jewish entitle much and that's the problem ok fascinating no government should i'm sorry were brought out of time many thanks indeed and i guess in washington and in philadelphia and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time and remember cross talk. me through.

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we. just sent them out in the computer or and come out front of me at the end. of america international and was in the very heart of moscow. mounting media.