international airport in the very heart of moscow. is. a low in welcome across town where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle but

john kerry expresses shuttling through the middle east in search of peace once again a u.s. administration claims to be a fair broker to resolve the israel palestine conflict after forty four years of occupation in colonization of palestinian land what can we expect if anything from the obama administration is it time to reckon with the reality on the ground that is the one state solution. to cross-talk the john kerry visit to the middle east i'm joined by edina friedman in washington she is a professor at the american university school of international science also in washington we have jason isaacson he is the american jewish committee director of government and international affairs and in philadelphia we cross the susan she is a writer political commentator and author of the book mornings in janine ok crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want susan we've just had a visit by the you. as secretary of state to the middle east anything new did you

hear anything new anything promising. unfortunately no peter and frankly i think we need to stop talking about this fantasy peace process. you know twenty some years ago palestinians made an unprecedented compromise to relinquish our legal and historic right to over seventy eight percent of our historic homeland with the understanding that an independent palestinian state would be established in the remaining twenty two percent in this time where the while this process was going on you know of course it was turned out not to be a peace process at all but instead it's become. a process of ethnic cleansing it's been a process whereby israel has continued this theft of natural resources belonging to palestinians principally land and water. it's been

a process of israel continuing to build the infrastructure of this israeli apartheid of israeli only roads jewish only housing color coded license plates and with permits checkpoints and so forth so i think you know i mean everybody everybody knows this two state idea is a lie and for some reason everybody keeps engaging in this ridiculous discourse and it frankly just serves israeli imperialist interests of wiping us off the map and one only needs to look at the map to see the truth in what i'm saying because as of now ok let's let's go to counterpoint let's get accountable i'm just saying start. generally and i'm sure you don't agree with that i go ahead peter thank you for. almost every sentence but thank you very much for giving me this opportunity look the palestinians should have a state and they should have it in that land and they had an opportunity to have

the creation of the state of israel in one thousand forty eight when the un partition one was adopted in the one nine hundred forty s. it provided for a palestinian state alongside israel the palestinians and the arab states rejected that went to war against israel let's remember the facts so yes there should be a published and state there are palestinian arabs living on that land they can have a state when they return to the bargaining table and negotiate for a state but to talk about apartheid to talk about rapacious this and that colonization is just nonsense i mean the fact is that israel has a right to exist in peace and security with its neighbors the palestinians have rejected that the arab states have backed them up and gone to war against israel it's time to get to the bargaining table and put that history behind us go ahead jump in the way in which we have very different points of view here ok so our. mind probably is that most of the merger between the two. i agree that there have been problems with futile attempts at peace and that the two state solution is looking

more and more blurry and to some impossible i think that it's if we just look at historical facts and figures and dates we will see quite different narratives about who said what to whom on what date and where where the story begins and that's problematic i think we need to move forward addressing the historical grievances not ignoring the fact that there are historical grievances serious ones that have not been addressed but there are a number of different accounts of what so in other words. when we talk about historical homelands we obviously have two competing claims to place to the same place i think though. one state while many jews would probably most likely disagree with this and many palestinians would prefer that solution i don't see it as a viable one at this point but i personally don't. don't see a problem with talking about it as

a longer term possibility i just don't see it happening as the first stage in anything and the two state solution isn't by no means a perfect solution it also doesn't do justice to the palestinians in israel it's problematic in many ways but i'm not sure there's anything better and as someone who is concerned with that region and actually grew up in that region. giving up hope that there is any solution would be a really ok magic thing i think susan we're going to go from here where do we go from here. give me a roadmap look look i wanted to make something very clear of the three of us to end this conversation i'm the only one with personal familial lynage dating back centuries. the only reason for example jason. thinks he even has a say in the matter is the fact is his notion of jewish in title meant which is the problem i mean this is where we are the indigenous population he thinks that we need to talk with our oppressors with with the white americans and white europeans

who feel entitled to to the resources belonging to the brown people and palestine and frankly you know i don't i don't accept that i reject that that's my that is my homeland that's my homeland and i don't need i don't need to negotiate with people like him to support basic human rights i don't need to negotiate for freedom tell the citizens should not have to do that. when i you know i do assure you they have their boots and our necks and they're asking us to negotiate and the irony is that we did precisely that we tried doing that and made an unprecedented historic compromise relinquishing seventy eight percent of palestine and you know it's it's ridiculous to talk about a two state solution now look at the map for god's sakes and besides that i mean israel one successive israeli government after another has affirmed no it no

uncertain terms that that they will not allow the emergence of a viable palestinian state i mean this is their words and they can take. everybody . we're going to talk about why the. lord peter. can't keep track of all of the things that have been served and counter every one of them it's just not possible they're coming thick and fast but look. i'm not negotiating on behalf of excuse me. i'm not negotiating on behalf of israel i'm not negotiating on behalf of any state i'm simply demonstrating the fact that there have been jews in the law and it is the jewish homeland for thousands of years to somehow pretend that there is no jewish connection to that land when we have so much evidence or do we want to live very intensely if we describe the body or even just look at what impact could have been james and you know i'm not so i'm not just recently susan susan excuse me i'm not saying that there have been going. through friend's wedding and i want your research points to have your mind where you want to go to james are

going to have a clue to what i'm great at least what you're looking at more legitimate than any other claims peter peter i'm sorry you're going to think you know what you should have been in egypt for thousands of years you want to take egypt to ok do you know jump in go ahead no this is a well i think if you're going to be. time to do despair i think you describe history of that really fair time. there are completing competing claims here obviously and some people think they're totally unequal. things that obviously personally i grew up in israel and many most of my family and friends who are there at this point in life have no other that's where they were either born or raised usually born and they have no other. no other citizenship or place to go either so in other words regardless of the fact that there have been some. historical injustices in many directions they need their own people i think that is that they

don't get to kick up now. yeah i agree i don't you know what i mean if you know what i mean i actually think that it's not the words in my mouth don't put words in my mouth that night didn't i didn't say that i said i think one of the things again we have tensions between what our collective collective rights if we look at nationalism as a collective a movement and collective rights of people then every collective that claims it's a nationalism should have similar rights but regardless of this i mean it's a huge topic i won't have time to get into now but i agree that. many obstacles have been put up by many israeli governments as far as actually establishing a two state solution or a palestinian state i think again further back in history there were there were different parties who refused different international initiatives for various reasons why the arabs are ject it initially and the jews rejected things afterwards for all kinds of reasons the point of the matter is that there are people that on many to stop this language susan weigh in. susan go ahead and you have no say

finish i have objections as well but i want to go away from such mendaciously like lazy and. i mean this kind of this kind of language makes it sound like that you know these are just two equal parties who are disagreeing you need to stop doing that it's this honest this is a situation of ethnic cleansing palestinians are literally being wiped off the map and you know issues and we are not going to go i want is not i don't know all of you when i talk about here for i don't know why is there an iraqi about racism we're talking about two peoples with oh you claim just wanted some group of people call that you don't want to song about but that's the reality or somehow didn't are that there was a jewish connection to the wind of israel is just a complete fabrication and the archaeological evidence aside from the right i'm so sad for him but it was so in my mouth you around the world know where you got a car that he works in my shop and i know it's just annoying the reality right susan before we go to a story so you know nothing is going to work well and marshmallow on the national

sky was such a point in my mouth you know i never said there was no jewish connection what i'm saying is that there is no white european white american connection to that land and that includes you jews have been all over the i'm not for on your enemies little or i'm not a gunshot injuries or someone you are not have legs for god's sake egypt or is dropped for that matter so so stop this mendacious talk like as if we know we're never there you're talking about those of years of jewish history some it is but i'm all right i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to one short break and after that short break we'll could you know we're discussion in israel and palestine stay with r.t. . we've received.

no the deal is i would live. in eternal silence the women are invisible that. every day is a struggle. for our children sleep soundly at night. we are palestinian women working in israel. we've done more for our kids than our husbands. we are phantoms in this life.

choose your language can make it with zero if they feel some of that. choose to skip consents to. choose the opinions that invigorating to. choose the stories that imply the place choose the access to your office.

international in the very heart of moscow. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you we're discussing john kerry's visit to the middle east. ok mike you go back to again in washington is the united states a fair broker in this case in this conflict i think to assume that the united states is either neutral and by totally fair is a mistake it isn't it hasn't been historically. different parties feel

palestinians what agree with this more probably israel is it's mixed. but i'm not sure again what their alternative would be because if we go back to our previous discussion we could have parties pursue what they see as absolute justice for their party but they that would probably entail some. injustices to other parties as well so i'm not saying that we need to ignore everything that happened on the contrary what happened thus far is extremely important but if we if we are assuming that nobody's leaving that area and that we're stuck there together and we need to find something that reasonably accounts for all the injustices that have been going on and that includes israel stopping to do or starting to do a lot of things i'm not the one that. we needs we need some kind of external help and israeli feelings about u.s. involvement are mixed you have the government that still you know trying to play its usual games like various governments and. but you have the public that's also

split i think of obama's speech spoke to a lot of israelis i know that on the in the peace camps which are broader than you usually know it did resonate but at the same time between most israelis understanding that there needs to be a two state solution and wanting the u.s. to help that happen and between the israeli government actually doing it as it's not exactly the same thing right jason how do you react to the u.s. is that if i make you jason. thank you very much thank you peter i disagree somewhat i think that when president obama visited israel last month and also the west bank a very important visit to ramallah he made statements that were significant to both populations and i think he identified with the palestinian desire and you know jane sinful obama is a good speechmaker he was a piece of you and your speech but what about policy love to finish policy though

it's a good speech we all agree what about what i did or go ahead i think the policy peter the policies pursued by this administration have been the correct ones have demonstrated solidarity and understanding of israel's special security needs considering by the way the incredibly unstable neighborhood in which it. exists and let's not forget please the fact that neighboring israel is syria worst seventy thousand people have been killed in the last two years with frankly unfortunately the support of the russian government the assad regime that is so let's not forget the us is the security of the middle of the court is this he was trying to destroy . people israel has again please so again again and again this administration is that we should talk about their israel's role as a series of his message to the program is the result of a priest and their desire for peace and a place to you peter found a commitment of successive governments to a two state solution to a two state solution susan jump in this is not there they have not been pulled they

have not been pulled to the rest of the formula where you have again and again i commit solution and which in which they continue to steal more and more palestinian land that's i mean this is it's the palestinians are just coming back to the last turn it was going to turn to speak susan and you know you know i was just giving a piece of clues that i mean you know that's why you like both of your guests peter are using this this very mundane just language i mean on the one hand you know jason jason talks about israel special security needs in fact israel has bombed and attacked unprovoked nearly every one of its neighbors and i mean it has it is the one that has been creating security issues throughout the middle east for decades and it also ignored. an offer from all arab nations in the region to make peace with it if it would simply comply with international law visa v.

resolution two forty two and you know and which would allow for the establishment of a palestinian state along the sixty seven borders and of course it ignored it so the security is are you ready for israel's security issue comes from its own greed and to and other people's resources and fact. you know there's no way i mean it's so even though he's been asked the question whether or not the u.s. is an honest broker i mean everybody knows it's not i mean and obama just allowed for another forty billion dollar aid package to israel i mean this is this is on top of the aid we've been giving them for decades and this comes at a time when american schools are closing throughout the country i mean it's it's outrageous the level of. the level of influence that israel exerts on american policies both domestically and foreign policies and you know the other the other mendacious language and the same thing that we're going to all

terms that ok well israel needs to needs to stop a few things in there it's not perfect whatever but let's just say what those things are it really is a brutal savage military power that has inflicted the most technological persistent violence against principally unarmed indigenous population and let's talk about sort of a sudden decision you know the other little problem to them take that they need to that they need to address you want to jump in go ahead you know what do you think this is this is. going to change is not something. that is just an issue in the region top you know you won't get any argument you won't get any argument from me about about brutality of arab nations or whatever so you know what but that's not that's not a legitimate life oh ok well other people are doing what i want to do it isn't going to it's because because frankly of the i think frankly of the state of the states in the region that have respected human rights considering the enormous

challenges that they have faced rocket assaults from from the south rocket assault from the north instability all of its borders terrorism that has killed hundreds and hundreds of his really over the years to see what's new and quite. just large the reality of the reality. i did not jump in i mean i don't want to share time for everyone go ahead. ok so. i'm not i'm not arguing with with many of the things that are most of the things that susan is saying about israel's actions i have serious problems with israel however at the same time there are also israelis who have. come up i know it's taken them forever to react to the arab peace initiative which wasn't perfect but was a good starting point at least to talk about there is that there is the counter israeli peace initiative which people have been trying you know israeli peace initiative more recently there are things like that in

a vanishing of other other efforts that show that israelis and palestinians and other arabs some of them can actually sit and think through some of these issues and are not a do not accept the situation or israeli actions etc the problem is again that the governments have not adopted these and not enough from the grassroots are pushing enough to adopt these changes but at the same time again even though i agree with many of the things susan is saying in principle i also happen to be israeli and i also happen to know what a lot of israeli people go through it doesn't matter that it might be israeli governments fault nevertheless there are millions of people in israel as well actually jews and arabs who go through who who also are victims of the situation and whatever solution we come to doesn't need to. obliterate palestinian rights or palestinian identity by any means but it also has to take into account that

there are there are also other millions of people there most of whom actually would prefer to live in peace with their neighbors we have leaderships not just the current one but but made sure that i don't know if there's your insight that's the problem the problem is you can't you can't live in peace that's the point in trying to go back to have jewish entitle meant and privilege at the same time that that's part of that part of the that is that is precisely the problem that. yes if he really needs to be that's your training if you want to listen to secure a record population that's his words privilege economic privilege psychological social privilege to people just yet through being jewish so you can't have it both ways israelis who have a history of being ok great and i actually have educated you say what's going to change soon fair time jason thank you very much peter i think good israelis who have been attacked over the decades by their neighbors need to have security and a peace process that produces security between the peoples is the guarantor that we are asking for and in fact if the arab peace initiative had been presented in

a way that demonstrated its understanding of israel's security needs and meeting israel at the table as it had done in the arab peace initiative on israel from afar i think it would have had a different reaction but the fact is that there is growing as dana says there is growing room and or understanding within israel that the possibility the possibilities do exist if the arab states come to the table with if it should be if the palestinians with their backing come to the table with israel there was a definite cross-section of agreement within the israeli public that this is the way forward is the only way forward or do you know you're going to reply with it now it's going to you know you have time i don't mean to say not going to answers for freedom please edina ok i would say so some of the israelis back to what jess was just saying some of the israelis would say would frame that differently so the people who have proposed some of these agreements don't put the main onus on palestinians they take they take their responsibility as well and put it also largely on the israeli government so it's so there are different opinions among israelis but those who are pursuing agreements very strongly. also acknowledge that

israeli government has been a main aabs israeli governments have been a main obstacle not the only one but a main one but back to the issue of privilege really is not enough israeli thought or what you want thank you all right like i think when we have thirty seconds left i'm going to give the last word to susan is last word to susan in thirty seconds. and you know i mean. that's easy to say that isn't necessary isn't really true because israelis have been electing one right wing government after another putting one word criminal at the helm after another and you know what as an indigenous violated forget about it we should not the world should not demand that we sit down and negotiate with our oppressors for basic freedom and basic human rights and jason the only only reason that he thinks that he has any say in this matter is simply born of his his sense of jewish entitle much and that's the problem ok fascinating i got your shit i'm sorry were brought out of time many thanks indeed

to my guest in washington and in philadelphia and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross topples. he became a symbol of the nine hundred ninety s. he personified the russian mafia in the kremlin. he was a twentieth century arrest buton. in just a few years he rose from junior was a multi billionaire and senior politician. is decline was as rapid as his meteoric rise and ended in exile his death is now as mysterious as his life.

better. on r.t. . you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. wealthy british style wholesome that's not on the such classified. markets why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports on r.g.p. . the news sigrid laboratory to mccurry was able to build a new most sophisticated robot which all unfortunately doesn't give

a dollar amount anything to nj mission to teach music creation why it should care about humans and world events this is why you should care only on the r g dot com. from new york about international and world in the very heart of moscow. tonight doug steep an oversight versus economic survival as the bailout.