well gary and i have used self-immolation as a very desperate and extreme form of protest but why kristen ghodsee a professor at bowdoin college who has extensively talked to bulgaria protesters claims that those who self-immolating are just incredibly desperate and cannot feed their own children and that people are actually becoming a stealth for communism because at least that system at the people's basic needs the current democratic system from the populace perspective according to her just cycles through a few new crooks every few years although it does get media attention and you may be feeling desperate suicide is never an answer the more living bulgarians the better book areas chances believe me but that's just my opinion. as a. glowing

welcome across the uk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle pakistanis have gone to the polls and elected a new parliament what will the new government do domestically and in the area of foreign policy particularly washington's drone war with growing economic dislocations in a very threatening taliban how can and should pakistan move forward and will the military continue to watch from the sidelines. to cross not pakistan i'm joined by marvin weinbaum in washington he's a scholar in residence at the middle east institute also in washington we have a son he is an independent defense consultant and author of the book the great powers versus the edge of our own and in rochester we cross to judy bello she is an active member of the upstate new york coalition to ground drones and end the wars.

in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want more of it if i can go to you first here what's your first conclusions drawn after the election here particular when it comes to drones is anything going to change. i don't think that we'll see too much change in the visible way. there already has been a cut in the use of drones well margaret i think there was there was a long as there was a lot of before the election there was a low before the election you think it's going to change that law will remain you think no i don't know i don't think it's going to change i don't believe that the united states is going to give up on the policy on the other hand i believe that we're going to see our our discussions with the new government to find everybody in a fairly comfortable place ok it's an assignment what do you think about that in washington do you think anything is going to change here with this new government. well i think the obama administration is watching carefully in there and there are

lots of rapt attention marvin is right i think it will be it will be decided he will be talking to your norah sharif who will be having a quiet dialogue with the military or mil to mil kind of contacts but i don't sing as margaret said i don't think it's going to change fortunately they don't i mean i'm surprised you guys are saying this because it's in terribly on popular in pakistan what are elections for judy go ahead jump in. i also don't think that the american government will change its behavior without a really strong. force and i think the problem i think actually had a better chance of. pushing back than now i shereef but i also think that there's going to be a new level of trading between the two contraries because sharif has been put on notice that people really really don't want these drone strikes and he has sort

of a new beginning with the military because having put mosharraf into prison or at least under house arrest and i think that you know there's a lot of things in play that will put more pressure on the united states i don't know that i think our government to stop our government is going to require our people ok marvin you want to jump in there and react to that oh i just just want to mention here that let's let's keep in mind whether it was in the washer really for him or it can it come to power if this is one area of foreign policy in which the military is still going to be first and foremost the military has got to be comfortable with whatever paul see the rule is and right now i don't again i don't see the military is ceding this to civilians as it's so unpopular. partly unpopular because of the way it's been put trade in pakistan it's been trying to

trade in the military is probably responsible as a attack on pakistan's sovereignty bill isn't it isn't you know it was. there is that an attack on their sovereignty marvin i want to stay with you isn't it an attack on their sovereignty the two countries are not at war not necessarily because remember of that for most of the history of this program this was a joint operation. not on every level obviously but it could not have proceeded without the intelligence being provided without the ability to take its planes off in pakistan but at pakistan air bases and using pakistan's airspace so it became less and less a partner ellie but i'd say partly that was for the best took reasons judy jump in . i i think that you know first of all i think that things have changed since that time that we no longer have george bush in power and we no longer have. in power

and that that i think that what was just said is an underestimation of the strength of the civil society and pakistan i think that the people there have were at one point convinced that maybe they did need the drawings and they were very fearful because of extremely unpopular and destructive military incursion into the tribal lands a few years ago but right now they feel pretty secure that that won't happen again and more and more people are starting to oppose these drone strikes yes because of the issue of sovereignty because it's not portrayed as a violation of their sovereignty it is a violation of their sovereignty and it is something that it's attacking them in a space where up to up till very recently no one could go to the tribal lands and even now it's very difficult no one's allowed to go back and for the people who

live there are marginalized they don't have many rights within the federal government i supposedly they're able to vote now but it's very slow moving there it's as if someone there was a huge indian reservation in the united states and people kept bombing their well known and normally people don't care about what's happening there they don't think about what's happening there it's outside of normal society not that that's right but it's true and now in pakistan people are starting to really realize that this is part of their country and that they they need to have some kind of an inclusive solution that they can't just ignore it you know the way you ignore things that happen in in areas like say in inner city in the united states where they have ghetto neighborhoods you know. the one you saw in case they don't want is. and in washington go ahead go ahead it's on or we're going to go but you know i respect respectfully disagree by the saudi government. spokesperson for the pakistani

military has been has been following their deceptive kind of policy it was winking and nodding at the united states and cooperating with the cia about going to tag that publicly saying to the country now the military has to make up its mind you know you can't have it both ways you can't have your privately you say ok. good that target and publicly say hey you know you're violating our our sovereignty you know what's going to happen is. with the new government they're going to be a new conversation a new dialogue between iraq shareef and obama administration and they'll try and determine you know the more valid piece of the of the drone policy the other tags are not going away to see do it attacks have been intensified under the obama administration yet bush started if you take a look at the chart i mean you know that the chart has gone way up and it is going to continue in fact right now right now as we speak there's a controversy going on in washington d.c.

in terms of what obama's violation of the use of military force but that's a public law but you know obama is interpretation of that there reminds me of for the imperial presidency you know he's looking at that power as absolute power or somebody testified yesterday or a couple of days ago that you know that our administration interpretation of that policy is that they have freedom to use drones from boston to bosnia come on this is not ok all right i'm smarter and smarter than look narvel was disagreeing about not having martin go ahead marvin you look like you disagreeing i had crosstalk go ahead although you well i know i just wanted to say that as the united states draws down its forces in afghanistan this is obviously going to be a factor into how important the drones are on one hand we've got fewer. troops there in there for less can be concerned about when it comes to the

infiltration issue to the afghan. stanley example handle but what about the pakistani people well. really well that's right but remember that this is a government. peter this is a government which has permitted the tell of on the various elements of the insurgency to have sanctuary and to be able to come across that border and with impunity and attack american and afghan forces so if you're going to provide that kind of safe haven there's a price to pay they're following finally learning that now because what's happening is that they're all insurgency is hiding on the ok there's the good taliban in the bad taliban go ahead judy. i don't think first of all when they talk about sanctuary and allowing them to go back and forth across the border can we

keep the mexican border absolutely secure and we completely stop people from crossing that border and the people crossing here are just crossing because they're hungry you know so i don't think that we can expect any more from the pakistani government and military than we can from our our own in terms of keeping our border secure furthermore our i think that this isn't just that drugs are counterproductive they keep the war going and that is the real point the real point is not controlling the taliban the real point is keeping the war going from the standpoint of the american government that is their objective the taliban could be dealt with and negotiated with because their power would fade if there was no reason for them to be there and sung go ahead jump in before we go to the break with. you and what marvin is seeing what i again respectfully disagree what you have what is the effect of drone attacks. is the

popularity of the united states is this rock bottom in the party sort. of pugh's research poll that came out only for the eleven percent and one percent of you say yeah jordan it bug you start at the very bottom so that we had to kind of do some policy analysis the assessment is drone a good policy to fight terrorism especially when obama says he's not going to be big on carter charism or he's going to have a light. colored target type of a fifth of the policy well armed services he's seeing that but in the other d. he's defeating the purpose the very very very very basic interest of the united states government that is getting some sort of the leverage with the parties on the government especially you especially you know the years that you that he's not done that in the past not time for him is is this. this or have serious dialogue with the taliban here folks we're getting anywhere short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on pakistan's day started.

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please. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing pakistan and drones. ok marvin in washington is the drone policy working with dividends or is it producing. because of the art obama's there is a lot when it is not. right not a lot no no it's become much more discriminating in the last several months

certainly whether that continues to be the case and i think it will be. the value of the drone program his not been just to take out the high profile al-qaeda types taliban types that's not been the purpose of it it's been mainly to disrupt the operations of the insurgency as they mount attacks cut coming across the border in other words they have to always be conscious of the fact that if they're out in the open if if they are if they are the targets they're going to be hit let me say this i wrote a very strong editorial against the drones back in two thousand and seven and never thought i should say an op ed in the washington post and which i argued against the use because i said it's going to turn the pakistani public against that and the cost and benefits didn't work out that was at a time when we were actually we had a lot of collateral damage the accuracy of the intelligence was not good it's

gotten better but i changed my view on this because for one thing if we stopped the drone attacks today i don't think it would take that eleven percent favorable rating of the united states yemen move in any way we are going to impound maybe not so many civilians would be killed maybe that's one outcome judy jump in there are not the truth is peter there are a great many civilian air until that's been part of the propaganda and i think spare there have been collateral are going to leave that's much better than nothing we don't get our craft judy jump in. it's a fixed wing aircraft aren't an option that's why it's not a reasonable comparison there's no way that we're going to set bombers over a country we're not at war with the drone seemed to be a cheat that people are getting away with as there is no use fighting for to make things too. many civilian casualties like the many people who

are disappeared and are unfairly imprisoned from pakistan and afghanistan has to do is the fact that people in the united states don't have good intelligence they don't know and by and when they go after people they have in many cases no idea of whom they are actually tracking so when they kill someone or a it's terror minister just completely random almost most of the time there may be a couple of occasions where there's someone important enough that they actually know how to follow him but for the most part that is not the case and the people who are and know that the genie is out of the bottle so to speak now if the people are aware the people of pakistan the people of the united states at least some of the people who are concerned about. our place in the world then we're going to find more and more that it could become harder and harder for the us government to keep continue this policy and there's no you can't just say all well maybe people are

now they're just going to relax and forget about it and it's not going to happen and yes those people are going to stay mad even after we stop any are you going to take time you're talking about but they do you can. if you want to. go ahead in washington jump in margaret you have a role. targeting a high where you are targets so i don't know why you are seeing that when that we are talking with our daily dose targets and then where do you know where do you see . who got to remember if you if you didn't get a good report it was either storm i mean we are we have created arena of terror in . in visitors start. to acquire i mean you know you take i mean so you know the drone the use of drone policy in my humble opinion is nothing but an art of failure it has to be revisited it has we have to have a kind of a discussion we have we have to bring in the pakistani army we have to bring in the baggage very civilly and government and really create some stake for them you see

and that's what we're that's where we are i mean if we if we want them to be part be a responsible stakeholder if i can bring the phrase from from us china relations are here if we have to make progress done in a responsible stakeholder then perhaps we can be more effective but more important than that what we are not doing in pakistan is that we're having we're not having a dialogue about getting partly sunny government a comprehensive security and economic. assistance to do it in order for them to really stabilize the government now as long as the government is not going to be stabilized drone policy is not going to be any successful any more successful tomorrow than it is today ok martin you had a lot of sad dam arvin you want to jump in go ahead well. yeah the stabilization of the government there is not going to be something which is our responsibility they've made a major step in that direction by electing a new government with

a solid majority majority and we'll have in the parliament that's the that's a point of stability here they've got to put their economic outlook and i want to get very little to do with anything with a drug. related life. you son going to. states cannot stabilize the government will provide it has to be allowed to say well i'm going to. want what you get i mean if you saying that everyone everyone listen to me does does it make any difference because the military just does its own thing anyway right judy go ahead elections don't matter for all of us all have things and it actually is slowly changing ok judy first go ahead i think that slowly that's changing and i met a lot of different civil society groups when i was in pakistan last fall and also members of the military and i don't think the military is any longer really happy with this happening i mean we may be talking about a few people at the very top but i think this is

a shifting and changing circumstance and that the pakistani military haven't given a way to you know secure their standing in the contrary does not need to be having this constant violation of sovereignty it doesn't make them look good either and they sure as hell aren't going to go back in and bring the army back into was their stand to go you know looking for the taliban so they need new ways to new ways to address their problems and they're looking for them but if the drones continue to pound pakistan then they are actually on empowered by that happening ok so i'm going to go back to washington you need to have here is i think what i mean and it's own actions go ahead you know. this is a big what the what the role of the military is going to be of course a lot of these are going to do for that is to go back to the barracks are going to happen but what is going to happen is. to have

a dialogue you're talking apparently in the top brass is going to have a dialogue with the with north sure if they go to develop the other days of their own approach if framework to do the americans americans are going to go to the people with their own free will. work and then they're going to have some kind of a dialogue so you see everything is up in there because of this election because of the fact that pakistan is definitely headed toward democracy so there's no sense in condemning what what happened at barca star and in the past we have to look at it head and see i'm not saying that we have to stabilize bugs that i'm saying that says united states is a major add or in the insult to you right now we have a role to plea in providing assistance for the economics the stability for berger and i did not say that we can we can stabilize morgues that are so large it is right in that sense but margaret is wrong and in the other states in that i well i don't know i haven't seen signs ever since to start a war on terror pakistan has been one of the biggest victims marvin's go ahead well

. it has been a victim but it is also been a culprit as well a look pakistan has made a decision here that if it's not a matter of looking the other way as far as the insurgency in afghanistan we have pretty good evidence that the elements of the pakistan security forces have been. involved in the operations themselves. in a small and sometimes a major way so pakistan does not have clean hands here but remember through all of this pockets don has its own insurgency going on and this is a very serious threat to the pakistan state if things go badly in afghanistan that threats going to become ever so much greater than it is now ham are and the fact is that i think you forget. there is i want to ask you about it

when you get to go in a way to save afghanistan it's destroyed pakistan judy first go ahead. that is ridiculous. that's what it is happening and it's and it's a terrible thing and it's totally unnecessary pakistan needs what the united states has to understand is that other countries in this world have their own agendas their own interests and their own interests and that that's reasonable and correct and therefore they need to be respected in pursuit of those interests rather than bombing anyone who's in the way and the fact that there's an issue along the border pakistan can resolve that through. bringing the tribal lands into their more into their federation into their government so that they the people there are empowered and there are many people from those areas who actually want that and i talked to them when i was there so but the thing is that they can't do that as long as the

united states is bombing there they can't bring them in they can't talk to them they have to try and hide it because they've been made complicit through earlier governments and so it leaves a barrier that no one can cross within their own country and so already when i went . through it just got thirty seconds marvin get the last word go ahead. well all i can say is that pakistan has a very serious problem with an insurgency it's not a matter of simply guys out in the frontier who will somehow go back to being what they were in the past they have a group there that has an intent to overthrow the kind of government that pakistan has at the moment they want to install a very different kind of state that's an issue aside from the drones it has nothing to do with the drones that's the threat that pakistan faces right now and they're

going to have to deal with it on their own terms and they're going to kill a lot of innocent people and can't cross-examine ok judy thanks for the last last word many thanks to my guests today in washington and in rochester and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. so you next time and remember crosstalk. some of these traditional chili lines they've been bred and developed and passed down from generation to. this is a tall destruction of the culture of new mexico i tell you what i mean this is not going to impact

a swelling in mexico whatever happens here. we're eating out about in the in the marrow in the eighty's in all boarding and so are. genetically engineered crops why do you think this country is full of obese and sick people because we have a crappy food system. mission free cretaceous free in-store charge of free. range lunch three. three stooges free. download free blog just plug in video for your media projects a free media gondar teton tom. little golden globe. little her.

mum little. goodspeed. her. and. her. long slow good. to her. place. right i mean very little. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you

thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big picture.

coming up on r t the pentagon has spent over three hundred million dollars on an anthrax antidote stockpile all in preparation for a future bioterrorist attacks but there's a major conflict of interest when it comes to who was awarded that contract well question more with google's continuing growth and its potential release of google glasses concerns over privacy are coming out how much of our lives are ingrained with google a. what secrets about others would google glasses offer to its wearer look into those questions ahead and if you thought that the a.p. was the end of journalist targeting think again it turns out there are other cases of the government with a close eye on the actions of journalists the details on this developing story later in the show.