all the least of melanin spun around russia we've got the future covered. but i will only react to situations i have read the reports and let you know please no i will leave them to the state department to comment on your latter point of the month to say it's. a car is on the docket else i. say no more weasel words when you veda direct question really prepared for a change when you have to punch be ready for a battle for the office speech and a little bit on the freedom to cost. hello

and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lobo engulfing the neighborhood syria's civil war has spread across the border into lebanon hezbollah defiantly promises victory over sides enemies indeed it would appear hezbollah interim intend to steadfastly stand by their ally in damascus the taking of sides is all but complete and the stakes for the entire middle east could be higher. to cross out the war in syria i'm joined by again our bell in washington he's a guest scholar at the southern center for middle east policy in the brookings

institution and a former israeli diplomat also in washington we have martin all over he is a professor of philosophy and religion at the american university and in beirut we cross to franklin lamb he is director of americans concerned for middle east peace all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want franklin here in beirut if i go to you first the head of hezbollah says the syrian war is our battle pledging a completely new phase what does he mean by it and what are the implications. well what he means by it is that hizbollah is in it to won it and they intend to do that with the support of of iran and other forces the implications are enormous perhaps historic. particularly with respect to the designer's occupation of. palestine they are hoping that this will weaken hezbollah in fact it will likely strengthen his bottom line if the assad regime remains there will be no greater power i'll side of israel than hezbollah in the region as the americans

withdraw so it's a fundamental broad expanse of relevance to all of the surrounding countries as well from iraq to turkey and jordan ok dan in washington would you agree or disagree with that i tend to know what your answer is go ahead. of course i would disagree with. is. a very tense moment in the region of course and. is flexing a muscle. and israel is obviously watching the situation closely monitoring the closely but nobody's under the illusion of hizbollah can actually become the second most powerful force in the region is actually being weakened as we speak suffering casualties and i think that the lebanese people in the lebanese government are realizing that this perhaps is their chance for

the first time in a very very long time to diminish his bowlers and strengthen activities ok martin where do you come in and all this here let me let me go to martin had to get all three guests first martin. i think the i think the mistake is in assuming that has been involved up to this point they obviously have been. needed to make an announcement only to. point out what has been obvious for some time that has been participating in the syrian conflict and it also needs to be stated that this is being depicted by now as a show of. strength in fact it's about their very survival of the pipeline of arms from iran through syria closes down and has no one nowhere else to turn ok but martin i mean that's what makes this so serious it's a it's a you know a game changer ok either you win or you lose. absolutely the case

but who wins and who loses exactly. there is no assurance that this will turn the tide for for bashar al assad and the syrian army. has a lot to gain and a lot to lose but if it does suffer defeat in syria will remain a force in lebanon there is no other force that can contend with it will certainly do diminish his voice claims to being the defender of lebanon and those that have some real political problems back home. i think israel has a chance to wait and see strength and. find out if. is what it wishes it is it was something in two thousand and six franklin do you want to jump in go ahead. well only to say that it's true that the situation is tense but the situation has been tense in the region since the occupation of

palestine in one nine hundred forty eight so that's not going to go away until that problem is is resolved. there is a risk to hezbollah but i think you're over look good perhaps the depth of the breath of their commitment and support i promise by the notion that this may be their golden age coming for hezbollah on a victory by a victory i don't mean that assad stays forever i mean by that i would define it he stays till the two thousand and fourteen election and let's see what. kerry come up with in terms of a solution but i think right now it's real it is concerned they would like as our guest said to take advantage of this of course but it's not clear the going to get an opportunity hezbollah in my neighborhood i live right in the middle of the security it's all a half mile from where that mortar hit the other day more and more people are joining hezbollah sure they've got their detractors but this you're seeing. from

the air of national loss as an opportunity to repel the design house american project and so you see here to topple the regime and to build up the arab nationalism and bring back into the air i well you know franklin they will say this is the states this is their say here but this is a sectarian difference to dan when you jump in and we talk about that. those who were there were saying listen i think your missing the terror of your single point here it's going to damage the earth that was are focusing too much on her so much on what's happening actually in syria. right now syrian civil war is at its peak with the assad regime brutally trying to suppress the opposition forces and while while doing that the opposition of course is returning and is fighting back and many forces are in play in the region supporting either the us so drizzy him or the opposition hizbullah supporting the syrian regime together with

iran. against the west against the united states turkey the european union and others so we have to look at the broader picture and put this ball in the right context i think martin how much you can help well a broader picture includes iraq ok we'll talk about that too martin you want to jump in the question and peter you referred to it is to whether or not there is a sectarian matter here i think we make a mistake to assume that hezbollah's aligned with the syrian government because of a religious affiliation well i'm not saying there is that ok for their own survival keep to keep martin keep going and to speak specifically to the situation in lebanon although there certainly are probably people flying in. the neighborhood where dan is. the situation on the ground there is very

tense very fluid in the northern lebanon you have fighting happening. in the streets. and there is not a clear sense of how this will break down internally and i'm not sure that the. movement of hezbollah to refashion itself as a defender of arab nationalism is going to go over well it has always been only. projected itself as a defender against israel we might and i fail to transform itself into an effective governing force and so now this move to become. i'm kind of regional powers. but yeah rational measure like all i got to do. at franklin jumping you got to disagree without if i can first of all they have a problem of selves to be a very effective governing power look what they did in two thousand and six rebuilt two hundred fifty two homes they are planning flowers trees all over the dock here but there are other good and franklin there not the governors for example is the

government levanon there's a limited over there going on there is talking about there one of the parties is going to know they are going to the concert or they're not and they're rolling out and they're calling the shots and parliament of course not the government and i think that the point is the goal is to expose that because sectarian his owner didn't start that way but it's being but it's being increased by all sides not bad guys on both sides i'm not claiming that but what i would ask you to consider is that the jury. record of iran and this are wrong all right let's talk about iran in a second how the clock will go on gentlemen let me jump in here and franklin please dan go ahead for equal time. first of all we have to again put. in its right place because bell as one of the factions operating in lebanon of course we've grown to this reality of a state within a state which has been is running undermining lebanese government efforts

constantly trying to to. to rule by fear to to effect by fear by by force by by torture we know their methods so first of all let's put aside i think that we have to focus on the big picture and the big picture is the fact that the us is at its. at its moment of truth and is facing serious challenge and the international community should step in. again pressure like it's not only on the i did. this to to go on we now stand because i think in the end in assad's end for two years now ok two years. fund well you know he's managed to survive but so far you know the international community is galvanizing efforts and it seems like right now it is a moment of truth in which the european union union funny lifted its arms embargo

on the opposition we have senator senator john mccain visiting syria over the weekend meeting with opposition forces and we're seeing an alignment of forces in the west in the european union with turkey that is applying if the pie the necessary pressure perhaps that will bring the frankly that regime franklin will finally before the break all that the law that's not at all well for. you that's not all what happened in the brussels there was no vote to council to find the sanctions are still in place and they're going to be intel midnight on friday what they didn't have the votes to do what the british and the americans and and certain other of their allies italy wanted to do was take an affirmative affirmative act to lift the sanctions. that didn't happen so now they're going to die it's actually a defeat for the british particularly and look at the comments are right then only remember he beta we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on syria

state with r.t. . a clear image of iraq after inflation. twenty day taxi trip through the country. the roads full of dangerous. clear evidence from north to south. the roots of iraqi tragedy. after the war waiting for peace. talks e l r t.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm trying hard welcome to the big picture. choose your language. we can with. some of. the the consensus here. choose to opinions that invigorating to.

choose the stories could impact the life choose me access to your office. i. welcome back across all things or consider peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the syrian civil war.

ok martin what do you think of be used to station on the embargo of arms or ending the embargo on arms to syria good idea bad idea more arms is a good idea in the situation solution or lack of decision i think yeah the e.u. decision or lack of decision as it were really points to the fact that there are no good options on the table certainly the e.u. hopes to see assad overthrown and for the rebels to succeed in that but which rebels which group of rebels arming who exactly and to what end we've seen the role of arms. given the sort of indiscriminately in this region before and the ways that that has come back to haunt various groups on and are very international community at large by so i think it really points out to the quaid mire that both the

international community finds itself in and that the syrian situation itself has become. it's a tough spot. yeah it seems that the change the disk get worse and irises of momentum in a day and go ahead. absolutely and i'm not sure where and i think you know i mean my own arms exemplar of resentment against her in a way that invokes for ok dan well there is the russian piece i agree there is a russian time goes ahead dan go ahead dan well as time as time goes by the russian peace plan is. becoming is i think more fading away and there are efforts now in paris as i mentioned earlier between secretary kerry and the russian foreign minister to try and see what can be done but of course this whole notion of a geneva process of the peace conference is also something that has to be has to be worked on it has to be there has to be a realization that it is the problem and not part of the solution and i think that

the quicker everybody realizes that the better and in this context i think that the supply of their. systems. by russia and others in the international community to the regime don't could. on the contrary they serve as destabilizing the i disagree with you to state the state of this regime has to be other protect itself every country has a right to protect itself franklin go ahead in beirut. yeah and we've got it we've got a concert of the. syrian people to the fact of matter and i have spent the last of basically most of the last five months in syria if you don't think that this syrian people are all unresolved because of all the hardship from the u.s. led sanctions to the brutality of the of the rebels and the brutality of the regime people are exhausted they want peace i don't rule out the russian plan i think that

what was not done at the u. and i think has been mischaracterized they'd only first time since the sanctions are going to expire on friday they didn't have the votes to lift the sanctions and i think the community the international community going to watch every arms shipment the only game in town may be. john kerry and sergey lavrov and i think that brahimi is correct when he says this is the one bright spot on the horizon because the arm for continuing they're not arms for peace arms are for war and so i mean i'm thinking that john kerry and lavrov who have apparently had a rough on personal and political levels there's a report from washington that the both of them are going to travel together and guess where the gotta go they're gonna go to the presidential palace and they're going to talk to bashar assad assad is not the devil he's made huge mistakes he will go eventually but let's let the the process to work with the interference from

the outside and i disagree that the international community is united regime change as are all the case so i think we're going to see some progress and we might be surprised a lot of official i've talked to in syria and common people have not given up on by bashar assad he may decide to go but. we've got to we've got to keep hands off let the election and. that spirit take place let the russians and the americans and the iranians the reins have a big role in this and let's see what they can come up with ok martin what do you think about the peace process the russian peace plan. it dead on arrival i think. i think there is no peace without russia's involvement but ironically that the russian plan will not lead to peace and i want to take issue with what you said here about syria's right to defend itself as you called it. the continuing shipment

of arms from whomever to whomever in syria leads directly to this conflict agree that bashar al assad is not the devil but he has murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens like the rebels have killed a lot of people as well you know also. most certainly and i think when you're talking about one hundred to one hundred thousand people that we're. we're talking about tens of thousands of casualties of dead people from the fire of the game from the actual use a daily basis use the chemical weapons cache that he still controls well and holds ok somebody has to start to it and i think that. assisting him by aiding him that's not the solution ok frankly jump in. and certainly assad should not follow your line of thinking if it coincided with john mccain. war he wants you

know what he wants what i don't fly zone we learn from libya what a no fly zone means it means twenty two thousand aerial attacks nine thousand of them targeting every target i kid on the motorcycle if necessary so mccain wants an all out war israel would like all out war but i think the russians and the iranians and the americans and the eventually be you and the u.n. i looking at this different way and you know if you come to syria you'll see it's a little more complex and those who say they understand it all i think they don't i think there's plenty of confusion so i i bet on the only bright spot i see are the iranians the americans and the the russians. with a library he made the others a peace program and plan and remember ball and then foreign minister said that the syrians will show up when we have them come to the table let out of their short can

let john mccain come let us all calm that's better than what's going on now it's got to be preceded by a cease fire so what's wrong with that martin what's wrong with that franklin well i wonder frankly if you believe. any peace can come with assad remaining in power franklin you want to answer the question tell the election yeah tell the election i think it can and i'm not convinced point is there any votes to say on a free and open and fair election. franklin well we can get jamie we can get you excited over there and we get the u.n. but i think that's problematic of the regime is going to have to prove to the world that it's a clean election and there'll be plenty of pressure on them. to make sure that happens but give credit to the syrian people you know it's not just their eight thousand years of history and their deep culture they're not in love with their government but they're in love with their country and i've seen that from homes to

aleppo to damascus it's remarkable i'm going to american i love my country but i don't think i have that kind of deep love that the syrian people have they're going to survive with or without this regime and i think we should have faith in them and let them decide these regime issues in the next election ok dan in washington jump in here. i'd like to say that first of all to set the record straight israel has no interest in this conflict continuing why it's important but then why is it one serious you know it's the other you know why is it on syria and israel why they should ban syria that israel wishes to see israel which is a syrian people peace and tranquility and a democratic election of a democratically elected government without our side in the picture. i don't know if israel did not. know who he who did not counts i do know i do know i do know that there are red lines for the israeli government and if somebody

crosses those red lines israel is bound to respond in a certain way so if weapons are trying to do sophisticated weapons or technology. and missiles and chemical weapons may be translated fall into the wrong hands into those of his bowl or from the foot of the of israel would will be a red line and this is what will not allow this red line to be crossed but another thing you know how to respond to life after sixty five years of the. but the involvement of the reigning regime that patrick sees. in a positive way i think it's a tremendous it's destructive. even soldiers are fighting along. our suppressing that this is a really horrible so one cannot be a part of this so there's a whole issue here that are about ok did you read the located in the margin maybe to saudi arabia to become to come to a stop maybe saudi arabia can bring democracy because of syria definitely so and how but i couldn't find him on her side on

a trip where you're going to church here all the info i had down margins john. martin jump and you have the floor of options here and as we said none of them are very good but i think it's quite clear and i i would back up franklin's point that the syrian people love their nation and. wish to see a peaceful prosperous syria and the question is does involvement from anyone outside of syria solve that was involvement lead us towards peace does iran involvement lead us towards peace does russia's continuing. military supply support of iran sorry of syria lead to peace with saudi arabia and involvement lead to peace i am not sure that any one of those and so perhaps it might need to be a true combination and as franklin suggests maybe bring in the iranians the russians the americans and yes the saudis along with the turks the jordanians and other regional actors into the room but that's going to be some serious diplomatic

muscle that needs to be flexed and to make that happen but i have a hard time seeing any other way will be resolved save for closing the borders and allowing the syrians to sort it out for themselves but that's a kind of blood sport that i think no one wishes to see well this is a very very difficult problem gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks today to my guests in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. next time and remember. as a. wealthy british.

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twenty five questions still remain. as bad hi jack. live. live live. live

. thank. you.

coming up on our team u.s. attorney general eric holder played a larger role in media investigations that he first let on now house republicans are calling for his resignation as holder tries too many times with journalists who latest developments just ahead. calling a truce the two are just days and honor is apologize for the violence they have caused are these words or will we see a reduction of crime in the murder capital of the world we'll speak to a man who knows all too well about honduras is violence ahead. wal-mart has pled guilty to years of dumping hardest waste in california is this just the cost of doing business or will the corporation change its ways we'll look at the issue later in today's show.