breaking the sad when abby martin is coming up in just a half an hour so stay tuned. download the official publication yourself choose your language stream quality and enjoy your favorite. if you're away from your television just doesn't matter now with your mobile device you can watch your t.v. anytime anywhere. hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter limbo

engulfing the neighborhood syria's civil war has spread across the border into lebanon hezbollah defiantly promises victory over sides enemies indeed it would appear hezbollah interim intend to steadfastly stand by their ally in damascus the taking of sides is all but complete and the stakes for the entire middle east could be higher. to cross out the war in syria i'm joined by again our bell in washington he's a guest call it the sub and center for middle east policy in the brookings institution and a former israeli diplomat also in washington we have martin all over he is a professor of philosophy and religion at the american university and in beirut we cross to franklin lamb he is director of americans concerned for middle east peace all right gentlemen crosstalk rolls in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want franklin here in beirut if i go to you first the head of hezbollah says the syrian war is our battle pledging a completely new phase what does he mean by it and what are the implications. well

what he means by it is that hizbollah is in it to one end and they intend to do that with the support of of iran and other forces the implications are enormous perhaps historic. particularly with respect to the designers occupation of. palestine they are hoping that this will weaken hezbollah in fact it will likely strengthen his bottom line if the assad regime remains there will be no greater power i'll side of israel than hezbollah in the region as the americans withdraw so it's a fundamental broad expanse of relevance to all of the surrounding countries as well from iraq to turkey and jordan ok dan in washington would you agree or disagree with that i tend to know what your answer is go ahead. of course i would disagree with. is. a very tense moment in the

region of course. is flexing a muscle but. and israel has obviously watching the situation closely monitoring the closely but nobody's under the illusion of his brother can actually become the second most powerful force in the region is actually being weakened as we speak suffering casualties and i think that the lebanese people in the lebanese government are realizing that this perhaps is their chance for the first time in a very very long time to diminish his bowlers and strengthen activities ok martin where you came in all this here let me let me go to martin had to get all three guests first martin. i think the i think the mistake is in assuming that has been involved up to this point they obviously have been. needed to make an

announcement only to. point out what has been obvious for some time that has been participating in the syrian conflict and it also needs to be stated that this is. depicted by not as a show of. strength in fact it's about their very survival if the pipeline of arms from iran through syria closes down and has one has no one nowhere else to turn ok but martin i mean that's what makes this so serious it's a it's a you know a game changer ok either you win or you lose. the case but who wins and who loses exactly. there is no assurance that this will turn the tide for for bashar al assad and the syrian army. has a lot to gain and a lot to lose but if it does suffer defeat in syria will remain a force in lebanon there is no other force that can contend with it will certainly

do diminish his voice claims to being the defender of lebanon and those that have some real political problems back home. i think israel has a chance to wait and see project strength and. find out if. is what it wishes it is it was something in two thousand and six franklin do you want to jump in go ahead. well owners are saying it's true that the situation is tense but the situation has been tense in the region since the occupation of palestine in one nine hundred forty eight so that's not going to go away until that problem is is resolved. there is a risk to hezbollah but i think you're over look good perhaps the depth of the breath of their commitment and support i promise by the notion that this may be their golden age coming for hezbollah on a victory by

a victory i don't mean that assad stays forever i mean by that i would define it he stays till the two thousand and fourteen election and let's see what. kerry come up with in terms of a solution but i think right now it's real is concerned they would like as our guest said to take advantage of this of course but it's not clear the going to get an opportunity hezbollah in my neighborhood i live right in the middle of the security zone a half mile from where that mortar hit the other day more and more people are joining hezbollah sure they've got their detractors but this. see the arab national loss as an opportunity to repel them signed house american project to tell you see here to topple the regime and to build up the arab nationalism and bring back into the era well you know franklin this is a way this is a sacred space this is there but this is a sectarian difference to dan when you jump in and talk about that.

you were missing i think all missing a tear i think we're all getting the point here it's going to dan i believe it's that we're focusing too much on so much on what's happening actually in syria. right now syria's civil war is at its peak with the assad regime brutally trying to suppress the opposition forces and while while doing that the opposition of course is returning and is fighting back and many forces are in play in the region supporting either the us. or the opposition has been supporting the syrian regime together with iran. against the worst against the united states turkey the european union and others and so we have to look at the broader picture and put this ball in the right context i think martin how much can hezbollah help well a broader picture includes iraq ok we'll talk about that too martin you want to

jump in the question and peter you referred to it is to whether or not there is a sectarian matter here i think we make a mistake to assume that hezbollah is aligned with the syrian government because of a religious affiliation well i'm not saying there is that ok for their own survival keep you keep martin keep going and to speak specifically to the situation in lebanon although there certainly are probably people flying in. the neighborhood where. danny is. the situation on the ground there is very tense very fluid in the northern lebanon you have fighting happening. in the streets. and there is not a clear sense of how this will break down internally and i'm not sure that the. movement of has a lot to refashion itself as a defender of arab nationalism is going to go over well it has always and only.

projected itself as a defender against israeli might and it has failed to transform itself into an effective governing force and so now this move to become some kind of regional power is. rational measure like i got to do. that franklin you got to disagree without if i can first of all they have a problem itself to be a very effective governing power but what they did in two thousand and six rebuilt two hundred fifty two homes they are planting flowers trees all over there are no other good and frankly there are nothing over there for example is the government love it and there's a lot of very good over the going on but you're talking about there one of the parties is going to get money they are going to really concentrate they're not and they're rolling out and they're calling the shots and part about of course the government and i think that the point is the goal of. sectarianism or didn't start that way but it's being but it's being increased by all sides good bad guys on both

sides i'm not claiming that but what i would ask you to consider is the jury strategic record of iran and this are wrong all right should talk about iran in a second how that is not going gentlemen let me jump in here and franklin place dan go ahead for equal time. first of all we have to again put. in its right place because bell as one of the factions operating in lebanon of course we've grown to this reality of a state within a state which has been is running undermining lebanese government efforts constantly trying to to. to rule by fear to to effect by fear by by force by by torture we know their methods so first of all let's put aside i think that we have to focus on the big picture and the big picture is the fact that the us is at its. at its moment of truth

and is facing serious challenge and the international community should step in. and pressure i could jump in here on the i did. this to to go on we know standing because i think you may end in a assad's end for two years now ok two years. fund well you know he's managed to survive but so far you know the international community is galvanizing efforts and it seems like right now it is a moment of truth in which the european union union funny lifted its arms embargo on the opposition we have senator senator john mccain visiting syria over the weekend meeting with opposition forces and we're seeing an alignment of forces in the west in the european union with turkey that is applying if apply the nursery pressure perhaps that will bring the frankland regime franklin will finally before the trail that the law that's not at all well for. you that's not at all what

happened in the brussels there was no vote to council to find sanctions the sanctions are still in place and they're going to be intel midnight on friday what they didn't have the votes to do what the british and the americans and certain other of their allies italy wanted to do was take an affirmative affirmative act to lift the sanctions. that didn't happen so now they're going to die it's actually a defeat for the british particularly and look at the comments are right then only remember he beta we have to go to a short break and out to that short break we'll continue our discussion on syria state with r.t. . here's

mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call a dollar. i'm sorry i'm just a guy who cares an awful lot but you sir are a fool you know what kind of my cells in your neighborhood all want to give us a to feature a sunday on limbaugh and the chris jones can secure good stuff out of the. you know the corporate media distract us from what you and i should care about because they're profit driven industry that sells a sensationalistic garbage he calls it breaking news i'm abby martin and we're going to break this that.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom hartman welcome to the big picture.

much. welcome back to cross talk or all things or consider i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the syrian civil war.

ok martin what do you think of the e.u.'s decision on the embargo of arms or ending the embargo on arms to syria good idea bad idea. more arms is a good idea and the situation in our lack of decision yabby your decision or lack of decision as it were really points to the fact that there are no good options on the table certainly you hopes to see assad overthrown and for the rebels to succeed in that but which rebels which group of rebels are mean who exactly and to what end we've seen the role of arms. given the sort of indiscriminately in this region before and the ways that that has come back to haunt various groups. and. international community at large. so i think it really points out to the quaid mire

that both the international community finds itself in and that the syrian situation itself has become. it's a tough spot. yeah it seems that it seems they just get worse and iris momentum day and go ahead. absolutely and i'm not sure there are well and i think you know i mean my own arms are similar organization but i guess you're in a way that invokes for ok dan well there is the russian piece i agree there is a russian time goes ahead dan go ahead dan well as time as time goes by the russian peace plan is. becoming is i think more fading away and there are efforts now in paris as mentioned earlier between secretary kerry and the russian foreign minister to try and see what can be done but of course this whole notion of a geneva process of the peace conference is also something that has to be has to be worked on it has to be there has to be a realisation that it is the problem and not part of the solution and i think that

the quicker everybody realizes that the better and in this context i think that the supply of there. by russia and others in the international community to the regime don't could. on the contrary they services destabilize i disagree with you to state the state of this regime has to be other protect itself every country has a right to protect itself franklin go ahead in beirut. yeah and we've got it we've got a concert of the. syrian people to the fact of matter and i have spent the last of basically most of the last five months in syria i don't think that this syrian people are all unresolved because of all the hardship from the u.s. led sanctions to the brutality of the of the rebels and the brutality of the regime people are exhausted they want peace i don't rule out the russian plan i think that

what was not done at the u. and i think has been mischaracterized they didn't only for science and science are going to expire on friday they didn't have the votes to lift the sanctions and i think the community the international community going to watch every arms shipment the only game in town may be. john kerry and sergey lavrov and i think that brahimi is correct when he says this is the one bright spot on the horizon because the arm for continuing they're not arms for peace arms are for war and so i mean i'm thinking that john kerry and lavrov who have apparently headed off on personal and political levels there's a report from washington that the both of them are going to travel together and guess where they got to go they're going to go to the presidential palace and they're going to talk to bashar assad assad is not the devil he's made huge mistakes he will go eventually but let's let the the process to work with the

interference from the outside and i disagree that the international community is united regime change as are all the case so i think we're going to see some progress and we might be surprised a lot of official i've talked to in syria and common people have not given up on by bashar assad he may decide to go but. we've got to we've got to keep hands off let the election in. next year take place let the russians and the americans and the iranians the iranians have a big role in this let's see what they can come up with ok martin when you think about the peace process the russian peace plan is a dead on arrival i think. i think there is no peace with all russia's involvement but ironically that the russian plan will not lead to peace and i want to take issue with what you said here about syria's right to defend itself as you called it . the continuing shipment of arms from whomever to whomever in syria leads directly

to this conflict agree that. bashar al assad is not the devil but he has murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens like you are going to read also it kills a lot of people as well you know also. most certainly and i'm sort of complaining you're talking about one hundred one hundred thousand people that were . we're talking about tens of thousands of casualties of the people from the fire of the game for the actual use a daily basis use the chemical weapons cache that he still controls holds ok and somebody has put a stop to it and i think that. assisting him by aiding him that's not the solution ok franklin jump in. and certainly assad should not follow your line of thinking if it coincided with john mccain he runs war he wants you know what he wants

a fly low fly zone we learned from libya what a no fly zone means it means twenty two thousand aerial attacks nine thousand of them targeting every target a kid on a motorcycle if necessary so mccain wants an all out war israel would like all out war but i think the russians and the iranians and the americans and the eventually be e.u. and the u.n. i looking at this different way and you know if you come to syria you'll see it's a little more complex and those who say they understand it all i think they don't i think there's plenty of confusion so i thought i'd bet on the only bright spot i see are the iranians the americans and the the russians are pushing with arab or he may be the others are peace program and plan and remember ball on the foreign minister said that the syrians will show up when we have them come to the table let

al gore a short can let john mccain come there all calm that's better than what's going on now it's got to be preceded. by a cease fire so what's wrong with that martin what's wrong with that. franklin well i wonder frankly do you believe that. any peace can come with assad remaining in power franklin you want to answer the question tell the election yeah tell the election i think it can and i'm not convinced point of anything else to say on a free and open and fair election. franklin well we can get jamie we can and you think harder over there and we get the u.n. but i think that's problematic of the regime is going to have to prove to the world that it's a clean election and there'll be plenty of pressure on them. to make sure that happens but give credit to the syrian people you know it's not just their eight thousand years of history and their deep culture they're not in love with their government but they're in love with their country and i've seen that from homes to

aleppo to damascus it's remarkable i don't know barack and i love my country but i don't think i have that kind of deep love that the syrian people have they're going to survive with or without this regime and i think we should have faith in them and let them decide these regime issues in the next election ok dan in washington jump in here i'd like i'd like to say that first of all to set the record straight israel has no interest in this conflict continuing why it's important that is why is it wasn't serious you know it was the you know why is it on syria and israel why they should ban syria that israel wishes to see israel which is a syrian people peace and tranquility and a democratic election and a democratically elected government without our side in the picture. i don't know if israel did not. count i do know i do know i do know that there are red lines for the israeli government and if somebody

crosses those red lines israel is bound to respond in a certain way so if weapons are trying to do sophisticated weapons or technology and missiles and chemical weapons may be translated fall into the wrong hands of those of hezbollah from the foot of the of israel would will be a red line and this is what will not allow this red line to be crossed but another thing you know how to respond to life after sixty five years you have the. but the volatility of the reigning regime that patrick sees. in a positive way i think it's a it's a it's destructive. even soldiers are fighting alongside. our suppressing that this is a really horrible so one cannot be a part of this so there's a whole issue here that are about ok did you read the located in the margin maybe to saudi arabia or to become to come to a stop maybe saudi arabia can bring democracy because of syria definitely so and you know how but i couldn't support him on her side on

a trip where you're going to be very gentle the inquiry down martin john. martin jump in you have the floor of options here and as we've said none of them are very good but i think it's quite clear and i i would back up from the syrian people love their nation and. wish to see a peaceful prosperous syria the question is does involvement from anyone outside of syria solve that was involvement lead us towards peace there's a ronnie and involvement lead us towards peace russia's continuing. military supply support of iran sorry of syria lead to peace with saudi arabian involvement lead to peace i am not sure that any one of those and so perhaps it might need to be a true combination and as franklin suggests maybe bringing the iranians the russians the americans and yes the saudis along with the turks the jordanians and other regional actors into the room but that's going to be some serious diplomatic

muscle that needs to be flexing her to make that happen but i have a hard time seeing any other way will be resolved save for closing the borders and allowing the syrians to sort it out for themselves but that's a kind of blood sport that i think no one wishes to see well this is a very very difficult problem gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks today to my guests in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. the next time you remember. the basement. is. a clear image of iraq after invasion. twenty day taxi trip through the

country. the roads full of dangerous. clear evidence from north to south. the route of iraqi tragedy. after the war waiting for peace. by god taxi on our t.v. . let me let me i want to know what all let me ask you a question from. here on this network is what round in the bank we have our knives out for. the very beautiful this time but it's a bad thing never get here in a situation where being i don't agree to talk about the surveillance me.

me is easy to. eat. it's.

to live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food i should try it because if you know how bad the less bad luck i've seldom get any i mean the towns i believe that i've seen seem to really messed up. in your career esau. actually. worse she heard a little light out of a. radio guy and for a minute. i want. to go because you've never seen anything like this i'm telling. how do you folks i'm at a martin and this is breaking the sets wal-mart stores.