now joined by thorpe on the gaggle and secretary general of the council of europe mr young going to be appreciate your being here it's now i think what is meant usually manned by human rights in the western political discourse our political rights rights having to do with political activity freedom of speech freedom of expression freedom to protest and i think some countries in particular russia and china argued that their ability to grant their citizens full political rights is conditioned on. the economy on dire economic prosperity and i think for some time the sort of argument was. brushed off as authoritative ploy but i think now some of the european governments faced with this territory have some sympathy with this line of thinking why do you think how strong the thing is the link between the country's economy and its ability to expand its citizenry political full political rights bill first of all i haven't heard the russian authorities are making this

argument actually they have signed up to the european convention on human rights they've been also very often criticized and one of the responses that they give to the european criticism for not granting their citizens for political rights would be that at this point these riots run counter to the economic prosperity and our ability to build the economy and grant people works jobs first no i think it's the other way around. granting people basic human rights is a precondition for have for having a healthy economy you can of course be successful because you got the economy in the short term medium term. with authority and system but in the long run it has been proven in his euro history during all times i would say that if you don't grant freedom of expression if you don't have freedom of media if you don't

have a vibrant or. autonomous civil society you always get corruption you get mismanagement salute to a great new year but this this is undermining the economy in the long run but i think we're not talking here about authoritative systems i think both russia and china would claim that they are abiding democracy of course neither of them claims that there is but i think what they're arguing for is that sometimes political rights could be curtailed for the sake of security for the sake of economic prosperity as well as for other reasons well i. i do not want to compare rush of in china this is two different systems russia has free elections have many political parties. civil organizations that can work freely there are discussions about that now but i never heard that russia wants to sort of say clamp down on the civil

society oh yeah you know you know about clamping down it's not black and white it is certain chains of grey and limiting some political groups right to protest in the center of the city when it encroaches on the rights of motorists to get access to their workplaces something like this would be often criticizing western governments as russia clamping down on democratic freedoms but of course i understand you worked in the government yourself and you had your critics and you would understand that when you are in a position of power balancing interests of various groups and you cannot grant absolute rights to one group at the expense of another no this is of course. i mean you need to have regulations in any society so freedom over you don't have. only been the freedom but you have basic rights which have to be granted and look

at for instance a situation invest in europe or in the so-called in the european union countries. does anybody believe that the economic problems in greece or in spain or need totally can be solved by reducing. basic human rights i think you'd see all the way around but obviously european countries didn't arrive at that place overnight and it required a certain transitional period for societies to adopt those values but i would like to go back to this initial point about that both russia and china are making sometimes about the hierarchy of human rights do you believe that certain rights are inherently more important than others yes absolutely for example the universal rights mentioned in the universal declaration of human rights these are rights

actually. not coming from the law itself or from any authority it is the cleared by the nations of the world that does rights come from the fact that you are a human being but for example again china and russia to some extent would make an argument that economic security is more important than political rights simply because people exercise their economic rights their rights of social security their right employment on a daily basis whereas political activity while we know from the polls that most people in most countries around the world people are involved in political activity on and off but this is not something that you're that if that's your life on a daily basis. i haven't heard that the russian authorities are making the point that they're living here as they say here and that economic rights or social rights are equal to human rights which i agree on i think indeed we little you know make

and social rights are also part of your crimes are minerals council europe we have the european. in a conventional new majority we have the social charter they are on an equal footing so there is no contradiction between this rights but but my main point is that we cannot solve economic problems and you cannot base a sound economy in the long term. on restraining basic human rights it is the all the way around it has been proven through history in particular here in russia european history but i am also and i think when you talk about china or course china is successful no but if this economic successes are not being followed up by political reforms i believe. china has already reached its peak so i'm in. this is being

also. said by the chinese leaders that they need to implement also political reforms in order to be successful in the long run you know that in the west in political discourse and media discourse do is countries like russia and china are still perceived as somewhat. underperforming when it comes to human rights as i think that's because in the west it is assumed that political rights supposed to be a bit more privileged than economic rights and i think this is you may disagree with me but i think we are actually entering a very crucial period for the history of human rights in general because for the first time in many decades the countries particularly western countries that have been at the forefront of the human rights cause and that took some of those the provision of some of those rights for granted and now put in the situation when they themselves cannot provide those human rights to their citizenry and what i

mean primarily here is the economic rights and the importance. of economic rights and i want to quote here the universal declaration of human rights article twenty five which states that everyone has a right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well being of himself and his family so if you take that as in the alien of the human right and if you take for example the country like greece where ten percent of the population live in extreme poverty thirty percent of the population are unemployed then you could argue that greece is now a major across violator of basic human rights and saw is spain increasingly of great britain and france yeah but i find it quite particular if one is having such a discussion here in russia. what is the past here. you have this. system suppressing freedom of expression suppressing limiting or not suppressing

limiting how well ok we can discuss our but there were no free trade unions there were no free siebel organizations there were no free debate why did. the soviet system all of a sudden collapse but i think it is because the list because there was no in the ration in the ration is dependent on free discussions on free i think the only creates here i think that many people in the west believe that that's the main reason why the soviet union collapse was a political reason i tend to disagree with you and many people many historians here disagree with you and they believe that the main reason was financial economic the economic crisis but why. because there was a person the mental technological revolution. in the world which

the soviet society was not able to follow because there where nobody pre-science there been no free. no way schmall. go there let's go to this is resolved i said you know it's more current you have freedom of speech in greece now and that pretty much anything that people do there now is criticizing the authorities protesting against a third just so that political rights are uninhibited but if you if you take any single pol and if you check the level of satisfaction of people in greece or spain with bad governance with die a democratic system with that life i think they would fare much lower than people say in belarus and because of stand those countries that were denied entry to the council of europe on human rights grounds you are too good point but i fail to see how the economic problems in greece can be sold by. putting a chilling effect on me here says you're making excuses no more economic rise but

you are not ready to make those excuses for political rights i mean one of the reasons why you have that situation in greece i can tell you who why because there was no transparency with regard to the huge debt they had in greece with you got to do takes of the issues and for us is not and this is because i know you have the same problem all over in europe you know if you're going to have a kingdom and france you know what are in our land or not the same problem but would you agree that the governments of spain and the governments of priests are now some of the major violators of basic human rights or are you i don't know north of the bay you have thirty percent of your population if you deny the basic human right and if i can quote article twenty two of the universal convention on human rights the right to social security the comic right indispensable for dignity

if you're denying that very basic right to thirty percent of your population i think that that that. that is a much bigger deal that denying political rights to a small share of your population the impact of the impact on people's lives is much larger yes i agree that this huge unemployment is a violation or basic human rights but. there is no contradiction between fulfilling the social rights. the older human rights such as freedom of expression freedom of assembly and all this so this is i'm and this rights are on an equal footing in all over convention system in contra europe they are well they may be on the mic will yet fording when it comes to that as a ration of valor we all aspire to them but they are not equal when it comes to that implication as they will come back to these fascinating discussion of human rights right after the break.

your language. make it with zero if you're going to.

get consensus. to the opinions that degrade. the stories but in. truth you. often. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom parker is a big. help seals are born and bred on the ice fields of the white sea. throughout the twentieth century the punch were hunted for their snow white fur. russia imposed

a ban on this trade and hunters have since been replaced by tourists but will these pups stay safe for ever. saving seals on aren't. we are discussing human rights when the secretary general of the council of europe mr glenn before we went to break or were discussing difficulties with granting citizens around a while the economic and political rights and i would like to bring in other example all of economy and poverty affecting society and affecting political rights to some extent i think it is the rise in hate attacks hate crimes all over europe something that your administration is concerned about and it also comes hand in hand with the rise in neo nazi parties in

greece the country that i mentioned before such part of the golden dawn has already entered parliament and i would like to play one of the solid bites from the from from the chairman of that party. the time for fear has come for those super trade this homeland we are coming so the time for fear has come and i think new announces and not just coming they have already arrived in europe and york is ation again is very concerned about it would you be in favor of taking political steps to limit the spread of that ideology it depends on what you mean by political steps i. would be cautious on the banning search parties. movements i understand that they have done it in germany for i mean everybody that has some empathy but history should recognize that

absolutely but in general the political parties is probably not the best way to combat this the best way to combat it is that the main stream politicians and political parties in europe take responsibility for your going to zation criticize russia for not allowing. groups. groups to host gay pride parades on the other hand he also criticized ukraine for allowing those parades to take place but not providing adequate security and it seems to me that no matter what their government in any given country does they're always in the wrong. no i wouldn't say that but uses only as an example that we all should be cautious on what kind of birds we are you see in particular against minorities this is an old problem on the european continent we saw it in norway the killing the crazy killing

of this young people didn't. come of dog nothing it was i mean. the source of this hatred comes from. society itself and words are being used in the society but when i hear my point is that when people are some are speaking or there are taking action if you can make the same argument for them that this hatred also is entitle to your freedom of speech and freedom of expression but i would like to stay on the l g b t rights and in particular the gay pride parade because this is probably be. more divisive issues social issue in russia these days and the latest poll show showed that seventy five percent of the russian population are very strongly against public display or of homosexuality now homosexuality itself is not banned and you know

they are not hopefully not discriminated there is no embedded discrimination on books but people the population in general is strongly against gay pride parades and that's why authorities. well thinking of themselves as being democratically elected and therefore under pressure to deliver on what the a majority demands don't grab those permissions now here we are coming back to a very important thing with human rights namely that. basic human rights cannot be overrun by a majority the i mean we are living in not only in a democracy but we are living in a constitution. no democracy basic human rights constitutes what the majority are allowed to have some of their for the majority are not in part due to harm human rights or a minority absolutely really this is this is this is basic thing. there's

a possibility of port authorities to safeguard this i'm not making an argument against the l.t.c. resiting there is a pretty much a legal and scientific consensus that this is a million a bill right here and then we have a burglar who will write us a better line my question to you is not about the right per se but about making sure that the society at large accepts those rights and i actually want to play you something that we received from georgia recently the georgia as you know has a very very pro western policy is. your your own organization has been quite complimentary on their human rights record and they actually granted the permission to host gay pride parade and this is what happened sixteen people were injured many of those gay pride activists were severely bitten police struggled to whisk them to

safety and just look at the sheer number of people seventy thousand people showed up at those rallies and you see the rage toward those d.-rats activists and my question to you whether these rallies insisting on. hosting these rallies where the it is really here productive to the l d b t cause in general because i don't see these people coming home those people who wanted to kill them to lynch them on the streets of beliefs i don't see them coming home and embracing homosexuals as you know. just as members of their community i think hosting l g b t parades is very counterproductive to the very idea of tolerance and giving them all those rides that they. have to have the crucial question which we have to prettier is who should be condemn those who are demonstrating or dollars who are attacking them but isn't going to. let me speak because. only or for it

to. in particularly europe today kind would say the majority are against homosexuality so therefore we are against it. every or authority has to say the opposite namely we are granting the same rights to dispute as all orders come so europe does not say that homosexuals for instance have special rights they only have the same rights as everybody else to put instance demonstrate that any authority has an obligation to safeguard that they can do so. it is easier said than done it's the same as you're saying that you know european governments have to solve a comic problem i agree with that that they have absolutely provide their citizens with food canonic rights but the question is how you would do that in a country in a society that is extremely and openly homophobic how would you do that without

putting those very same people who are also your citizens and who security you have to protect without putting them in danger because once you're a government official you would know that from your own expense it's not about what you believe it's about balancing the rights of various groups and in russia as well as in many other. countries homophobia. is an enormous issue of enormous proportions and if you're really concerned about granting this people those rights then you have to work with the society rather than slapping that society in the face that's how those gay pride parades are perceived and russian and other kinds of i agree that everybody should entertain responsibility to assess whether it is constructive and responsible to have a demonstration if it for instance it's obvious that it will harm human life. then one has to sit down and think about whether it should be done but. i'm

a little bit and made. that you say that world what is going on in greece is. a threat which i think it is i'm in the good girl so we still miss him there but what we have witnessed now when in georgia i'm not condemning you saw the same kind of extremism what worries me is that when it comes to homosexuality for instance responsible mainstream politicians are playing on the feelings. on. the ground how the society has done this using this for political explode and exploiting this politically is irresponsible but i think the same argument could be made for western governments and you're only going to zation which is critical of again russia ukraine georgia because. your the government's ability to you because they they feel that you're using this homicide the issue of

homosexuality for political means because again the russian society or other societies are not ready yet to embrace it doesn't mean that they will never be ready it doesn't mean that but as of now you have to work isn't that democracy after all working with people's attitudes working with their views trying to change it from within rather than coming here and or you know lecturing from a high pulp in that you know you have to grant those rights to matter what yes here i can agree definitely every society is in the kind of you see evolving in norway in my country. for instance. homosexual marriage. not at all i mean it was seen as something really wrong on it twenty years ago or today it's natural. human everyone contrie has the right to evolve based on their own history tradition religion and all this so i think i have said

this many times in the in the come from europe and we have discussed this in the in the kontum insists that you cannot impose things on a society. because they only hear your own that is ation often criticize the societies for not living up to this very high standard that you have sad but it has to be understood that we are not trying to impose for instance homosexuals mad rich here in russia or else or the only thing we have to do is to protect the pre-dawn or expression the freedom of assembly even if that comes at an expense of that i write security their rights to life did this are for the mental rights that we have to protect and i'm in situ say that this shouldn't take place. because it can cause a lot of attentions and all the well if you look at history all from the mental

rights that we have now has been fought for by somebody. i'm a very critical moment in history people have stood up. many have died for it but there's i mean many examples in history of why it was done through evolution rather than revolution through stay but by step social change but unfortunately we don't have it was the way that you tried to say this to nelson mandela that he wouldn't have the right to stand up against all parted rich because it would be moderate muslims if for example you would argue that violence or rather there are victims is the worst form of violence and if you were to take his logic then again some of the governments in europe would be. violating my point don't use of be have to take both logics and not exclude the one because all the older well we actually can manage to come to an agreement at the end of the program thank you very much for

your time please join us again same place same time here on worlds apart. we speak your language as i think you might be will or not a day in. this program seems documentaries in spanish what matters to you. but what will turn it into angles to the stories. you.

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