you know we've only seen a. polo in welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle turkey in turmoil a sudden upsurge in intensity of protest against the turkish government has caught many by surprise critically prime minister aragon are we witnessing still another arab spring play out or is it more simple than that is it all about every country's politics and political style. protests in turkey i'm joined by alone ben mayor in washington he's a senior fellow at new york university's center for global affairs in istanbul we

have michael dickinson he is a writer and artist and in london we crossed his i had to leave he was a political analyst and a writer right gentlemen crossed that means you can jump in anytime you want to find go to you first in london the prime minister the turkish prime minister was in the u.s. at the brookings institution at the beginning of last month and he said turkey's in the news everyone's talking about turkey not in the way that he had hoped. definitely not in the way he hoped he was basically pointing out that democracy well established democracy that he has managed to sideline and. hold to the. politics and it was imagined as an economy power and he hides the mandate democratic mandate of the people perhaps for that time and that's why i wouldn't call it similar to an arab spring because under. like the arab spring which were

launched and wait but that people against radical dictatorships which wedding egypt tunisia tunisia also yemen and there is still going on against the background dictatorship and also against. dictatorship as well isn't democracy but i do believe that god has shot him in the foot he is fighting with one hand tied behind his back because he has encouraged people in iraq which is again another dick more christian maliki was elected through the ballot box he encouraged people and sidelined with the protesters and took them to avoid and sweep under the carpet all democratic mechanisms that it's going through the parliament and also going against maliki in another general election elections opposing and encourage them to defy him to increase and why didn't that demonstrations and he also have acousmatic off using. brutal ruthless crackdown

against i think a lot of people who read i think point a lot of people michael them michael how do you see things going on in turkey go ahead first go ahead michael. in what way i mean. it's gone wrong what's gone wrong why the protests. well why do you start i mean. there are protests all around the world and they are also in america you remember the occupy what happened to them they were also suppressed by the american police were they not the first time. turkish police are in hiding now for the last couple of days because they came out with full force with tear gas against poor people who were sitting out in a park to try to save the trees which are going to be stripped off one of the only green parks in the center of istanbul but that's just wrong thing but the police such we are very stuff. did they always do with the brutal treatment they just fire

of these two guys without thought whole city was full of it and the people thought by this time and now for the last two days the streets of central istanbul are empty of place i don't feel so safe without alone how do you see things going on and just you know concerned go ahead go it alone in my head you know what i think i think we have to look at the situation and turkey from about a larger perspective what happened in taksim square is that in my view was only the trigger days there was always being for the last three four years at least very similar in anger by the significant majority in there and there within the turkish community against what they see as a growing authoritarian regime yes. it was elected three times perhaps because of

that the government is now has been behaving in a very arrogant manner. he himself said when you win an election in a democratic way you have a majority that's what matters but how you implement democratic reforms how you go about it in the first the first six seven years i think. made tremendous progress and social reform political reform certainly economic reforms but then they began to slide and that is what has been happening i have been in turkey scores of times in the last several years and i can tell you when i see it see in my own eyes the difference between what it used to be and what it is now what people begin to fear to speak in public sitting in a restaurant they don't want to speak loud because somebody might hear what they are talking about when journalists are in jail when hybrids of the military are all under house arrest by fifty sixty of them. the question where turkey is heading i

have been a great admirer of to him so i think turkey no longer can offer an mmog of democracy to the arab world and i think it has failed miserably in that regard and i do not to believe that what we are seeing today is going to be quelled to very soon and that's going to be the end of the story this may very well be the beginning that it's a really good place. to let me go let me go to london you know heads i jump in the beginning of something or not i do believe all those are hugely important factors my my my colleague has the internal policies i do have to emphasize that his foreign policy hot spectacularly failed spectacularly backfired and we are seeing now the fighting and backlash to those policies particularly until policy on syria he used to preach and lecture. said on how to deal with people how to treat

people on how not to use massive disproportionate force we are seeing do seeing him doing the exact things that he said and you also preach to i'm not a q. who has been elected through again democratic process and you have accused him of monopolizing and accumulating titanic powers and these are the very accusations leveled against him by his own people but let me add on top of that here it's off to actually be siding with the idea be a with qatar who are dictatorships and trying to use the same same let's say extremist hard line adopted by so again in actually supporting arming financing paying salaries unprecedented move to the insurgents who happen to be in that vast majority that's according to the you know new york times extremist wahabi so if it's like you just have to and we have seen the york times saying that. all the

money all the funding all the arming that serious majority of that had played into the hands of actually turning job have turned out to their fears it's not ok i mean you're here let me go to michael tell me go to michael how much eight years if i may going to jump in michael go ahead go ahead and stumble well you know i was going to say i mean about people whispering in cafes not they're not whispering in cafes at the moment they are out of the streets without shouting devarim which means revolution and who commands the stuff far where government must resign and they are shouting this at the tops of their voices the people are so happy with this idea i don't know what's going to happen but they were just at the moment when the whole streets of it is. are occupied by people and they've set up stalls where the giving way free food there are being songs there are being lessons and things like that. it's going to check a lot for this to be cleared up at the moment at the moment they're doing it is on

hold a dot on the holiday so he's visiting africa morocco or something of them he's coming back tomorrow as it was a mystery or something and he said i want this cleared up by the time i get back but i think it was a little next to nothing airport and we didn't have our him to come into the country himself and while i don't think it's going to go there this is it it's a go ahead go ahead jump in the this is exactly this is exactly the point you know here you have a prime minister who has done so so much in the past now he's seeing these demonstrations and instead of focusing and trying to deal with it the same that arrogance is being applied to it by simply saying i am leaving this is really nothing of consequence he called the demonstrators about horrible names and then he said by the time i got back on when they said be clear that shows you how dismissive he has been but i want to echo one other point that was made by my colleague from london you know this so. zero zero zero problem with neighbors which

was admired when it was first initiated now i ask myself the question which neighbor turkey does not have a problem with this is this is another collapse of the turkish foreign policy and if you look around turkey all the various countries perhaps except for some with georgia turkey has a problem with all of these countries so what you see the collapse of the foreign military is going to be said only those countries have problems with their government so what can i add to this please go ahead you have to go to london does it from a guy is i mean it's a valid question it's a valid question we can see clearly that it's actually toeing the line and getting even closer to becoming the stone chest and closer replacing mubarak as the bulwark that always saudi arabia and qatar have needed in carrying out its policies so he is bringing techie closer into being the instrument of saudi arabia and qatar in

implementing their policies in standing up for minting and instigating a sectarian here although when he's because i think this is the desire to involve any internal risings in that country and let me add to that it was also the bombing that took place in turkey that was that have stirred up shock waves and set alarm bells keep that jet back to north and that have been given the entry and turkey's painkillers i mean all of them to american best because they don't like the name of god and he doesn't jump in therefore we go to the break go ahead let me let let me just say something you know i think what to say when you're saying this. alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia egypt. this is i call it a lie so it could mean a lot because you know i think the bigger picture is that what you have not egypt what you have here is that the. conflict in syria really has two

dimension one is it one is between it actually said that russia to some extent but the other one which is a bit greater much more serious and much deeper along with the situation here gentlemen we have to go to a short break and i want to continue our discussion of what's happening in turkey state. police.

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is why you should care only. you know really the only thing we want. is a. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the up people in turkey. all right gentlemen before going to the break was a bit heated there in along you said during the break do you want to finish your point so please do sir. you know i really don't want to talk about syria what i'm saying is the connection is there that this so-called alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia and other tours imagined by my friend in london is that there is this conflict this is there really is reduced to the shiite and sunni and

turkey in this particular respect would like to take the lead and its appeal to the arab street has backfired the arab street in the wake of the of the so-called arab spring turkey felt it's going to have inroads in the arab street as a matter of fact i believe that sacrifices relation with israel as a result of that hoping to be able to assume the leadership of the region and that too has failed so when you look around you see that they are the one with the best of his intention what happened is that domestically he's back slighted foreign policy back now in the effort in the wake of what happened in syria and he's also failing miserably ok michael if i go back to you in istanbul a lot of people would say that the islamic politics is what puts so many people off in turkey can you speak to that. yes actually enough of this. basically. says la la la land they continue

and so you know how much is his profit but you don't need to say that anyway if you just say la la la there is one god we are all the children of god there is no need for separate religions like catholics and protestants and what a lot of people on the ground here for the way do they and i fortunately. have found ok go ahead in london jump in. yet another factor has been actually the kurdish issue a lot of people in turkey have perceived it or viewed it as owed to god himself since he has an overarching goal to actually become again and he has sold out or made concessions to the terrorists that is their peak in order to win them over to change that constitution to allow him to make changes that will in the long run how all the cards the kurdish cards and we've seen him play an instrumental role in actually breaking up the alliance between the kurds that the regional government in

iraq that this region and the shia a lion's and deflates it by is alliance between turkey and between the kurds and actually showing them all. the. easing that their reliance forgive pendants on the evocate central government and that has been dramatically spared on and encouraged by the kurds and by. the saudis and also the terrorists in order to drive a wedge between the kurds and the central government in iraq to weaken and destabilize the central government in iraq in all of that basically to make it easier to topple but shut it i said because their strategy has now changed their you want to weaken iraq because they can see that iraq and that's even the america . given the lies to the soviets and qataris to dramatically destabilize and we can iraq so that it cannot act as the supporter or backup to that shot it said that is

the new policy adopted by of the gun is what's the concern how instead of the government going to move forward now in turkey i can what do you think i can just hear i've only got one what the how they're going to actually i think they should be kicked out as the people are demanding they should resign and also i think the people should get to know this we're talking about arab spring we're talking about revolution we're talking about world revolution actually people are rising and they should take out these tyrants these putin's these are sides there is. no arms and let's have a real democracy where people have a voice for our people so you may have voted for the man live had elections over and over so what do you think about it i just said go ahead jump in and just say what we are witnessing yeah what we're witnessing and what we're seeing on the ground is that dangerous president that all get down gun has started by actually encouraging people who have been encouraging people to take to the streets and defy

democratically elected government as he has done explicitly in terms of iraq and when i hear that people are saying that again putin isn't describing putin as a dictator that is another dangerous president that it's encouraged and sped on by the americans so one way you have a democratically elected government like in the case of putin they simply encourage people to take to the streets to do fight and to overthrow and we don't see them implementing that on the streets of america if that is the case then they should actually listen and hear to their demands explicit demands by many american people who've taken to the streets now that starts putting their money where their mouth is and we not seeing them that doing that when there are staunchest and closest allies are the major anti ran it could regime in. what you have described people who have taken to the streets asking for democracy at service that's explicitly what the interior minister ministry and so the idea calling them then you

terrorists and they will be treated how does that tell us how being created you know you're american something even if you say i'm going to alone is this a cultural war being fought out because i've been to turkey many times and there are many different turkeys. it's not monolithic well you know i think the one factor we have to emphasize here is there are the growing pervasive pervasiveness of the party you know nowadays if you want to be appointed to a political position you better have a very strong religious credentials this is what worries me what worries many european allies of the of turkey and i must tell you also there is the current tremendous strain between turkey and the united states notwithstanding their public narrative in terms of grocers across alliance cooperation and all of that but this tremendous strain because the united states has been talking to the turks in this regard you know erica one only a year ago were saying we have to protect every single means the freedom of speech

and freedom of movement freedom of this what he's now doing is doing precisely the opposite banning for example that serve alcohol building and other mosque into skid square instead of leaving some greens and then middle of the city of istanbul all of this is a clear indication how far how pervasive the party has has come and that is what started to worry that many many turks specifically the academic community who feel that turkey it is no longer the guy in a democracy they were hoping for but he has a slide it so about so much back that this what's happened now it is only the initial manifestation of that kind of resentment and i secretly believe this is a good a beginning and certainly not the end beginning of the end if we go back to london just go ahead. yeah i do believe we have to be very careful in actually

demanding the overthrow of democratic democratically elected government which has which have a mandate by that people and have been elected through the ballot box to overthrow them by in cabbage ing people tom and it can hardly take that street to overthrow throw them. i'm not saying that what democrats. are trying to refinance is right. and i don't think he's acting democratic i think that doubt is getting it too is that he has just been practiced what you preach to the shop and to maliki by listening to their people understand the will of the people but overthrowing democratically by taking to the streets and actually the way the following and during two of the americans want is to completely wrong ok michael no i'm saying what i'm saying i with i am saying you know we are not advocating that these demonstrators can or should go over there or the democratically elected government what i am saying is that comes next election. prime minister error to i should no

longer feel that he's a shoo in and he's going to win the presidency that's who are saying he is now anything the junk general public and that is where the problem is lies and that's where his concern should be and this is the issue that he is now need to address and address it seriously in order to change the public to his narrative and not speak one way and act in a different way and that is the problem that everyone has today michael what about the military are they going to feel bold and right now. military well actually i would just like to speak something else about first he doesn't he has a very hard skin and he refuses to accept criticism i was imprisoned sic i know something i never go for and i don't acknowledge i know the larger picture of him and actually the case was after me for trials i was acquitted and then six months later the court in ankara said no he shouldn't have been acquitted

we will reopen the case so i was retried and found guilty of insulting the tow trucks from his just for a collage caricature showing him talking about the military i think the military would actually be on the side of the people we were talking about the military who are the the boys who are drafted into the army they have no choice actually that is another thing that we can criticize not just only add on but talking about we should not have a draft in a civilized democratic country so anyway i would say that the general soldiers would be on the side of the people in this matter so i think they would be our friends going to. say things it's going to feel if you know ten seconds later go ahead ten seconds thought it. was a military goal i think i only really i agree with might not play against them brenda would feel that they hound i actually do want their people about their true

colors so that's really going to gentle lady where they run out of time i'm very sorry many thanks for you to make it and watch it in its temple in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time remember rostock rules. we've been leading with. play mission free play critic a should be free in-store judge is free to make amends three risk free studio type free. download free blog just plug in video for your media projects free media oh god r t

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clashes gripping violence drags on and police arrest dozens despite a government apology over the harsh crackdown and in the meantime the media is being accused of turning a blind eye. to. u.s. lawmakers vote to keep the guantanamo bay prison open indefinitely undermining president obama's promise to lift the transfer restrictions for detainee. on social media posts result in arrests the targeting of abusive twitter trolls by british police leads to concerns over the freedom of speach.