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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter all over turkey in turmoil a sudden upsurge in intensity of protest against the turkish government has caught many by surprise particularly prime minister gone are we witnessing still another arab spring play out or is it more simple than that is it all about every country's politics and political style. to cross protests in turkey i'm joined by a long been mayor in washington he's a senior fellow at new york university's center for global affairs in stamboul we

have michael dickinson he is a writer and artist and in london we crossed he's a political analyst and a writer right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to you first in london the prime minister the turkish prime minister was in the u.s. at the brookings institution at the beginning of last month he said turkey's in the news everyone's talking about turkey not in the way that he had hoped. definitely not in the way he hoped he was basically pointing out that democracy well established democracy that he has managed to sideline and ostracize the old. politics and it was emerging as an economy power and he hides the mandate democratic mandate of the people perhaps for that. time and that's why i wouldn't call it similar to an arab spring because unlike the arab spring which were launched and wait but that people. take the ships which were egypt.

tunisia all. so young men and it's going gone against the dictatorship and also against the. dictatorship as well isn't democracy but i do believe that a gun has shot him in the foot he is fighting with one hand tied behind his back because he has encouraged people in iraq which is again another more christian maliki was elected through the ballot box he encouraged people and sidelined with the protesters and took them to avoid and sweep under the carpet all democratic mechanisms that is going through the parliament and also going against maliki in another general election elections opposing him encourage them to defy him to increase and why didn't that demonstrations and he also have to kill fusing. brutal ruthless crackdown i think a lot of people who are going through

a lot of people michael them going there michael how do you see things going on in turkey go ahead first go ahead michael. in what way i mean. the reaction is going when is going wrong what's gone wrong why the protests. well where do you start i mean. there are protests all around the world and they are also in america you remember the occupy what happened to them they were also suppressed by the american police were they not this time the turkish police are in hiding now for the last couple of days because they came out with full force with this tear gas against poor people who were sitting out in apparent part to try to save the trees which are going to be stripped off the one of the only green parks in the center of istanbul but that's just wrong thing but they used the police actually very start to do it and they always do with their brutal treatment and

they just fire these two guys without thought whole city was full of it and the people thought but this time and now for the last two days the streets of central istanbul are empty of police and it feels so safe without them alone how do you see things going on in concert going alone in my head you know what i think i think we have to look at the situation in turkey from about a larger perspective what happened in taksim square is that in my view was on the trigger days there has always been for the last three four years at least a very similar an anger by the significant majority in there and that within the turkish community against what they see as a growing authoritarian regime yes. it was elected three times perhaps because of that the government is now has been behaving in

a very arrogant manner. he himself said when you win an election in a democrat. you have a majority that's what matters but how you implement democratic reforms how you go about it in the first the first six seven years i think. one meant tremendous progress and social reform political reform certainly economic reforms but then they've begun to slide and that is what has been happening i have been in turkey scores of times in the last several years and i can tell you when i see it in my own eyes the difference between what it used to be and what it is no one people begin to fear to speak in public sitting in a restaurant they don't want to speak because somebody might hear what they are talking about when journalists are in jail when hybrids of the military are all under house arrest by fifty sixty of them you must question where turkey is heading

i have been a great admirer of to himself but i think turkey no longer a model of democracy to the arab world and i think it has failed miserably in that regard and i do not believe that what we are seeing today is going to be quelled this is very quickly soon and that's going to be the end of the story this may very well be the beginning but also it's a really good place to do it willingly let me go to london you know heads i jump in the beginning of something or not because i do believe all those are a hugely important fact is my my my colleague has unfit sites the policies i do have to emphasize that his foreign policy hot spectacularly failed spectacularly backfired and we are seeing now the fighting and backlash to those policies it particularly until policy on syria he used to preach and lecture that shot and said on how to deal with dead people how to treat people on how not to use

massive disproportionate force we are seeing do we seeing him doing the exact things that he told the shutdown that said and you also. please do i malik you were what's been elected through again democratic process and the other accused him of monopolizing and accumulating titanic old powers and these are the very accusations leveled against him by his own people but let me add on top of that here it's all the sea of actually be siding with the idea be a with qatar who are dictatorships and trying to use this same same let's say extremist hardline policies adopted by so again in actually supporting arming financing paying salaries unprecedented move to the insurgents who happen to be in the vast majority that's according to the you not only new york times are extremists who are hard because if it's like you just have to run and we have seen the york times saying that all the money all the funding all the arming the

absolute majority of that late into the hands of actually turning out to live. here let's go to michael kelly go to michael how much you going to jump in michael go ahead. you know i was going to say i mean about people responding in. there not whispering in cafes at the moment they are out on the streets without shouting devarim which means revolution and. their government must resign and they are shouting this at the tops of their voices are the people so happy with this idea i don't know what's going to happen but just like the moment the whole street is. are occupied by people such up stores were giving away free food there are being songs there are any lessons and things like that. it's going to take a lot for this to be cleared up for a moment at the moment it is on hold and not on

a holiday sort of his visit to. iraq or something of what is coming back tomorrow as it were something he said our. this cleared up by the time i got back but i think it was a little. airport who didn't how it should come into the country himself and while i don't think it's going to go to this is it it's a go ahead go ahead jump in there you know this is exactly this is exactly the point you know here you have a prime minister who has done so so much in the past now he's seeing these demonstrations and instead of focusing and trying to deal with it the same that arrogance has been applied to it by simply saying i'm leaving this is really nothing of consequence he called the demonstrators about horrible names and then he said by the time i come back i want to be clear that shows you how dismissive he has been but i want to echo one other point that was made by my colleague from london you know the so-called zero zero zero problem with neighbors which was

admired when it was first initiated now i ask myself the question which neighbor turkey does not have a problem with and this is this is another collapse of the turkish foreign policy and if you look around turkey all the various countries perhaps except for some with georgia turkey has a problem with all of these countries so what you see that the collapse of the foreign policy is going to be those countries have problems with their government so what can i add to this please go ahead you have to go to london does it make things right i mean it's a valid question it's a valid question we can see clearly that is actually toeing the line and getting even closer to becoming the stone chest and closer replacing mubarak as the bulwark that always saudi arabia and qatar have needed any and carrying out its policies so he is bringing techie closer into being the instrument of saudi arabia and qatar in

implementing their policies in standing up for minting and instigating a sectarian year old when he has because i think this is just a bump and. internal risings in that country and let me add to that it was also the bombing that took place in techie that was that have stirred up shock waves and set alarm bells in jack keep that jet back to north and al qaeda that have been given the entry and turkey's paying kids i mean for them to go back to young people but on the plane coming along and he doesn't jump in they probably go to the break ok let me let let me just say something you know i think want to say when you're saying this. alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia egypt and carter this is i call it the lies of convenience because i think the bigger picture is that what you have who are not egypt aside what you have here is that the. conflict in syria really has two dimensions one is one is between the united states

and russia to some extent but the other one which is either group greater much more serious and much deeper along with the situation here gentlemen we have to go to a short break and i want to continue our discussion of what's happening in turkey the state parties. are releasing.

good lumber tory was able to build most sophisticated robots which fortunately. abound anything tim's mission to teach. should care about humans. this

is why you should care only. really really really want. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the up people in turkey. all right gentlemen before going to the break was a bit heated there in along you said during the break do you want to finish your point so please do sir. you know i really don't want to talk about syria what i'm saying is the connection is there that this so-called alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia and other towards mentioned by my friend in london is that there is this complex if there really is reduced to the shiite and sunni and

the two key in this particular respect would like to take the lead and its appeal to the arab street has backfired the arab street in the wake of the of the so-called arab spring turkey felt it's going to have inroads in the arab street as a matter of fact i believe that sacrifices relation with israel as a result of that hoping to be able to assume the leadership of the region and that too has failed so when you look around you see that they are the one with the with the best of his intention what happened is that domestically he backslid it in foreign policy back i now in the effort in the wake of what happened in syria and he's also failing miserably ok michael if i go back to you in istanbul a lot of people would say that the islamic politics is what puts so many people off in turkey can you speak to that. yes actually enough of this. basically. says la la la land they continue

and so you know how much is profit but you don't need to say that anyway if you just say la la la there is one god we are all the children of god there is no need for separate religions like catholics and protestants and what a lot of people on the ground here for the way do they and i fortunately. have found her ok go ahead in london jump in. yet another factor has been actually the kurdish issue a lot of people in turkey have perceived it or viewed it as owed to gun him so he has an overarching goal to actually become again and he has sold out all made concessions to the terrorists that is their peak in order to win them all of that to change that constitution to allow him to make changes that will in the long run how all the cards the kurdish cards and we've seen him play an instrumental role in actually breaking up the alliance between the kurds that the regional government in

iraq this region and the shia alliance and deflates it by is alliance between turkey and between that carrots and actually showing them all. the. easing. that reliance forgive pendants on the evocate central government and that has been dramatically spared on and encouraged by the kurds and by. the saudis and also the qataris in order to drive a wedge between the kurds and the central government in iraq to weaken and destabilize the central government in iraq in all of that basically to make it easier to topple but shut it i said because that strategy have now changed their you want to weaken iraq because they can see that iraq and that's even the america . have given their lives to the soviets and qataris to dramatically destabilize and we can iraq so that it cannot act as the supporter or back up to shout it that is

the new policy adopted by of the gun is what's the concern how is the government going to move forward now in turkey i can what do you think i can just hear i've only got one what the hell they're going to actually i think they should be kicked out as the people are demanding they should resign and also i think the people should get you know this we're talking about arab spring we're talking about revolution we're talking about world revolution actually look people are rising and they should kick out these tyrants these poor tunes these are sides phase. you know no one's let's have a real democracy where people have a voice for our people so you may have a russia is a vote of their hand they've had elections over and over so what do you think about this and i can just say go ahead jump in and just say what we're witnessing yeah what we're witnessing and what we're seeing on the ground is that dangerous president that all get the gun has started by actually encouraging people who have been encouraging people to take to the streets and defy democratically elected

government as he has done explicitly in terms of iraq and when i hear that people are saying that again putin is describing putin as a dictator that is another dangerous president that it's encouraged and sped on by the americans so one way they have a democratically elected government like in the case of putin they simply encourage people to take to the street to do fight and to overthrow and we don't see them implementing that on the streets of america if that is the case then they should actually listen and hear to their demands explicit demands by many american people who've taken to the streets now that starts putting their money where their mouth is and we don't seeing them that doing that when there are staunchest and closest allies are the major anti ran it could regime in. what you have described people who have taken to the streets asking for democracy etc that's that's explicitly what the interior minister ministry and so the idea of calling them then you

terrorists and they will be treated how does that tell us how being created you know you're mentioning something you've been saying i'm going to alone is this a cultural war being fought out because i've been to turkey many times and there are many different turkey's. it's not monolithic well you know i think the one factor we have to emphasize here is there are the growing pervasive pervasiveness of the party you know nowadays if you want to be appointed to a political position you better have a very strong religious credentials this is what worries me what worries many european allies of the of turkey and i must tell you also there is under the current tremendous strain between turkey and the united states notwithstanding their public never to in terms of grocers across alliance cooperation and all of that but this tremendous strain because the united states has been talking to the turks in this regard you know erica one only a year ago were saying we have to protect every single means the freedom of speech

and freedom of movement freedom of this what he's now doing is doing precisely the opposite banning for example that serve alcohol building and other mosque into skid square instead of relieving some greens and the middle of the city of istanbul all of this is a clear indication how far how pervasive the party has has come and that is what has started to worry that many many turks specifically the academic community who feel that turkey it is no longer the guy in a democracy they were hoping for but he has a slide it so a back so much back that this what happened now it is only the initial manifestation of that kind of resentment and i secretly believe this is good the beginning and certainly not the end beginning of the end if we go back to london just go ahead. yeah i do believe we have to be very careful in actually demanding the overthrow of democratic democratically elected government which has

which have a mandate by that people and have been elected through the ballot box to overthrow them by in cabbage ing people tom and it can hardly take that street to overthrow or throw them. i'm not saying that what democrats. are trying to refinance is right . and i don't think he's acting democratic i think that power is getting to it too is that he has to practice what he preached to but sharp and to maliki by listening to the people understanding the will of the people but overthrowing democratically by taking to the streets and actually a way that lowing and jeering to what the americans want is to completely wrong ok might not be saying what i'm saying come out with i am saying you know we are not advocating that these demonstrators can or should go over there or the democratically elected government what i am saying is that comes next election. prime minister error do i should no longer feel that he's

a shoo in and he's going to win the presidency that we are saying he is now anything the junk general public and that is where the problem is lies and that's where his concern should be and this is the issue that he is now need to address and address it seriously in order to change the public to his narrative and not speak one way and act in a different way and that is a problem that everyone has today michael what about the military are they going to kill them bold right now. the military well actually i would just want to speak something else about first he doesn't he has a very hard skin and he refuses to accept criticism i was imprisoned signals of i will go for and i don't know college and i know the large picture of him and actually the case was after four trials i was acquitted then six months later the court in ankara said no he should have been acquitted we will reopen the case so i was retried and found guilty of insulting the tow trucks

promise just for a collage caricature showing him talking about the military i think the military would actually be on the side of the people we were talking about the military who are the the boys who are drafted into the army they have no choice actually that is another thing that we can criticize not just only add on but talking about we should not have a draft in a civilized democratic country so anyway i would say that the general soldiers would be on the side of the people in this matter so i think they would be our friends going to. say things it's going to feel if you let me hear you now ten seconds go ahead ten seconds thought it not. going to be as far as a military goal i think i only read and read it might not think it is time brenda would feel that they had actually won their people about their true colors so that's only going to general meeting where they run out of time i'm very sorry many

thanks for you to make it and watch it in its temple in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember rostock rules. are evenly with. islam. do we speak your language anybody will not advance the. news programs and documentaries in spanish matters to you breaking news a little tonnage of angola's kidneys stories. you hear. the choice all teach spanish find out more visit eye to eye on tivo it's called.

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we're. talking sports the show the door to the prime minister over the ongoing crackdown by police there on the sadness of a spray and bostons on almost of a man's. thing before a tweet especially if you are in britain web police are throwing people behind bars the crossing the line with us social media. outside says have resumed on moscow's metro after a short circuit and a blaze paralyzed traffic in the capital for hours and left at least sixty one people injured.