hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle turkey in turmoil a sudden upsurge in intensity of protest against the turkish government has caught many by surprise particularly prime minister gone are we witnessing still another arab spring playing out or is it more simple than that is it all about every country's politics and political style. to cross protests in turkey i'm joined by a long been mayor in washington he's a senior fellow at new york university's center for global affairs in stamboul we have michael dickinson he is a writer and artist and in london we crossed he's a political analyst and a writer right gentlemen cross talk rules and effective means you can jump in anytime you want to find go to you first in london the prime minister the turkish prime minister was in the u.s.

at the brookings institution at the beginning of last month he said turkey's in the news everyone's talking about turkey not in the way that he had hoped. definitely not in the way he hoped he was basically pointing out that democracy well established democracy that he has managed to sideline and. hold to the. politics and it was emerging as an economy power and he had the mandate democratic mandate of the people perhaps for that time and time and that's why i wouldn't call it similar to an arab spring because unlike the arab spring which were launched and wait but that people. take the ships which were egypt. tunisia also yemen and it's still going on against the dictatorship and also against. dictatorship as well. tekkie is it democracy but i do believe that

god has shot him in the foot he is fighting with one hand tied behind his back because he has encouraged people in iraq which is again another tick more christian maliki was elected through the ballot box he encouraged people and sidelined with the protesters and took them to avoid and sweep under the carpet all democratic mechanisms that it's going through the parliament and also going against maliki in another general election elections opposing and he courage them to defy him to increase and why didn't that demonstrations and he also have acousmatic off using. brutal ruthless crackdown against because i think a lot of people who agree i think a lot of people michael them you know michael how do you see things going on in turkey go ahead first go ahead michael in assemble. in what way i mean. it's gone wrong what's gone wrong why the protests. well where do you

start i mean. there are protests all around the world and they are also in america you remember the occupy what happened to them they were also suppressed by the american police whether or not this time the turkish police are in hiding now for the last couple of days because they came out with full force with tear gas against poor people who were sitting out in a park to try to save the trees which are going to be stripped off one of the only green parts in the center of istanbul but that's just wrong thing but the police are actually very start to do it and they always do with brutal treatment and fire these two guys without thought whole city was full of it and the people thought by this time and now for the last two days the streets of central istanbul are empty of police and it feels so safe without. alona how do you see things going on but

you know it's going to go it alone in my head you know what i think i think we have to look at the situation and turkey from about a larger perspective what happened in taksim square is that in my view was only the trigger days there has always been for the last three four years at least very similar in anger by the significant majority in there and that within the turkish community against what they see as a growing authoritarian regime yes. it was affected three times perhaps because of that the government is now has been behaving in a very arrogant manner. he himself said when you win an election in a democratic way you have a majority that's what matters but how you implement democratic reforms how you go about it in the first the first six seven years i think turkey under one made

tremendous progress and social reform political reform certainly economic reforms but then they began to slide and that is what has been happening in turkey scores of times in the last several years and i can tell you when i see it see in my own eyes the difference between what it used to be and what it is now what people begin to fear to speak in public sitting in a restaurant they don't want to speak because somebody might hear what they are talking about when journalists are in jail when highbrows of the military are all under house arrest by fifty sixty of them you must ask yourself the question where turkey is heading i have been a great admirer of to himself but i think he no longer can model of democracy to the arab world and i think it has failed miserably in that regard and i do not believe that what we are seeing today is. going to be quelled sort of very

soon and that's going to be the end of this story this may very well be the beginning that it's a really good. idea to let me go let me go to london you know heads i jump in the beginning of something or not go i do believe all those are hugely important factors my my my colleague has the internal policies i do have to emphasize that his foreign policy hot spectacularly failed spectacularly backfired and we are seeing now the fighting and backlash to those policies particularly until policy on syria he used to preach and lecture that shot and said on how to deal with their people how to treat people on how not to use massive disproportionate force we are seeing seeing him doing the exact things that he said and you also preach to and malik you how it's been elected through a democratic process and you have accused him of more no polarizing and

accumulating to ironic powers and these are the very accusations leveled against him by his own people but let me add on top of that here it's off to actually be siding with the idea be a with qatar who are dictatorships and trying to use this same same let's say extremist hardline policies adopted so again and actually supporting arming financing paying salaries unprecedented move to the insurgents who happen to be in that vast majority that's according to the you know the new york times extremist wahabi. and we see in the new york times saying that all the money all the funding all the arming the absolute majority of that top plate into the hands of actually turning out into the fields or smoke ok. here let me go to michael to go to michael how much overhears if i may going to jump in michael go ahead. you know. i was going to say i mean about people whispering in cafes not been not

whispering in cafes at the moment they are out on the streets without shouting devarim which means revolution and who commands stuff far where government must resign and they are shouting this at the tops of their voices and the people are so happy with this idea i don't know what's going to happen but they are just at the moment the whole streets of it is. are occupied by people and they've set up stalls were giving way free food there are being songs there are being lessons and things like that. it's going to check a lot for this to be cleared up at the moment at the moment edouard is on holiday not on holidays or he's visiting. morocco or something of the he's coming back tomorrow as it was a mystery or something and he said i want this cleared up by the time i get back but i think it would be a little next to nothing airport and we didn't have our him to come into the

country himself and one i don't think is going to go there this is if they go ahead go ahead jump in you know this is exactly this is exactly the point you know here you have a prime minister who has done so so much in the past now he's seeing these demonstrations and instead of focusing and trying to deal with it the same that arrogance is being applied to it by simply saying i am leaving this is really nothing of consequence he called the demonstrators about horrible names and then he said by the time i got back on when they said be clear that shows you how dismissive he has been but i want to echo one other point that was made by my colleague from london you know the so-called zero zero problem with neighbors which was admired when it was first initiated now i ask myself the question which neighbor turkey does not have a problem with and this is this is another collapse of the turkish foreign policy and if you look around turkey all the various countries for her. except for some

with georgia turkey has a problem with all of these countries so what you see there the collapse of the foreign companies and all of those countries have problems with their government so what can i add to this please go ahead you have been. going to london as its ratings are is up and it's a valid question it's a valid question we can see clearly that it's actually toeing the line and getting even closer to becoming less chest and closer replacing mubarak as the bulwark that always saudi arabia and qatar have needed and carrying out its policies so he is bringing turkey closer into being the instrument of the area and qatar in implementing their policies and standing up for men and instigating a sectarian here although when the because there's a vote and internal risings in that country and let me add to that it was also the bombing that took place in turkey that was that have stirred up shock waves and set

alarm bells in jack keep that jet back to north and that have been given the entry and turkey's pain because i mean for them to go back to leon because they don't look like i mean a lot of employers in jumping over we go to the break go ahead let me let me just say something you know i think what to say when you're saying this. alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia egypt. this is i call it a lie so it could mean a lot because you know i think that your picture is that what you have who are not egypt that's right what you have here is that the. conflict in syria really has two dimensions one is one is between the united states and russia to some extent but the other one which is either group greater much more serious and much deeper a lot of the situation here gentlemen we have to go to a short break and i want to continue our discussion of what's happening in turkey the state of our. you

know it. isn't. the civilized world produces more food than it needs. well people die of hunger in other countries. millions of victims every year. where a meal is the most value trade. last. is flood or droughts to blame. it was a bad year without a train. we couldn't anything but. there was great hunger. is

a good help comes too late and without good intentions. charity diplomacy and business to get. a. mission free accreditation free transport judges free. agent free. free. to tide free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects and free media. tom. wealthy british style sons of. the titans on. the. market. can. find out what's really. happening to the global economy with mikes cars are

run no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to kaiser report on. you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom hartman welcome to the big picture. i would rather ask questions to people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t.

question more. really the only thing we want. is a. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the up people in turkey. all right gentlemen before going to the break was a bit heated there in along you said during the break do you want to finish your point so please do sir. you know i really don't want to talk about syria what i'm

saying is the connection is there that this so-called alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia and other course imagined by my friend in london is that there is this complex it's there really is reduced to the shiite and sunni and turkey in this particular respect would like to take the lead and its appeal to the arab street has backfired the arab street in the wake of the of the so-called arab spring turkey felt it's going to have inroads in the arab street as a matter of fact i believe that sacrifices relation with israel as a result of that hoping to be able to assume the leadership of the region and that too has failed so when you look around you see that they are the one with the with the best of his intention what happened is that domestically he backslid it foreign policy back now in the effort in the wake of what happened in syria and he's also failing miserably ok michael if i go back to you in istanbul a lot of people would say that the islamic politics is what puts so many people off

in turkey can you speak to that. yeah actually enough of this. basically. says la la la la no continue and so you know how much is his profit but you don't need to say that anyway if you just say la la la there is one god we are all the children of god there is no need for separate religions like catholics and protestants and what a lot of people on the ground where do they and i fortunately. have found ok go ahead in london jump in. yet another factor has been actually that kurdish issue a lot of people in turkey have perceived it or viewed it as owed to gun him so since he has an overarching goal to actually become again and he has sold out or made concessions to the terrorists that is their peak in order to win them over to

change that constitution to allow him to make changes that will in the long run how will all the cards the kurdish cards and we've seen him play an instrumental role in actually breaking up the alliance between the kurds that the regional government in iraq that this region and the shia alliance and deflates it by is alliance between turkey and between that carrots and actually showing them all. easing that that reliance on the evocate central government and that has been dramatically spared on and encouraged by the kurds and by. the saudis and also their captor is in order to drive a wedge between the kurds and the central government in iraq to weaken and destabilize the central government in iraq in all of that basically to make it easier to talk all but shut it i said because their strategy has now changed their you want to weaken iraq because they can see that iraq and that's even the america

. ns have given their lives to the soviets and qatar is dramatically destabilize and we can iraq so that it cannot act as the supporter or backup to that shot it has said that is the new policy adopted by of the gun is what's the concern how is the government going to move forward now in turkey i can what you think i can just hear i've only got one one what the hell they're going to actually i think they should be kicked out as the people are demanding they should resign and also i think the people should get to know this we're talking about arab spring we're talking about revolution we're talking about world revolution actually look people are rising and they should kick out because tyrants these poor tunes these are sides there is. no arms and let's have a real democracy where people have a voice for our people so you may have voted for the man had elections over and over so what do you think about it i just say go ahead jump in and just say what we

are witnessing yeah what we're witnessing and what we're seeing on the ground is that dangerous president that all get dug on has started by actually encouraging people who have been encouraging people to take to the streets and to defy democratically elected government as he has done explicitly in terms of iraq and when i hear that people are saying that again putin isn't describing putin as a dictator that is another dangerous president that is encouraged and sped on by the americans so one day they have a democratically elected government like in the case of putin they simply encourage people to take to the streets to do fight and to overthrow and we don't see them implementing that on the streets of america if that is the case then they should actually listen and hear to their demands explicit demands by many american people who've taken to the streets now that starts putting their money where their mouth is and we not seeing them that doing that when there are staunchest and closest

allies of the major anti ran it could regime in. which have destroyed people who have taken to the streets asking for democracy at stats explicitly what the interior minister and minister in saudi arabia are calling them then you terrorists and they will be treated that terrorist have been treated so how do you know you're you mentioned something you've mentioned i'm not going to alone is this a cultural war being fought now because i've been to turkey many times and there are many different turkeys. it's not monolithic well you know i think the one factor we have to emphasize here is the growing pervasive the pervasiveness of the party you know nowadays if you want to be appointed to a political position you better have a very strong religious credential this is what worries me what worries many european allies of the of turkey and i must tell you also there is under the current tremendous strain between turkey and the united states notwithstanding

their public narrative in terms of growth as a close alliance cooperation all of that but this tremendous strain because the united states has been talking to the turks in this regard you know arab wine only a year ago were saying we have to protect every single means the freedom of speech and freedom of movement freedom of this what he's now doing is doing precisely the opposite banning for example that serve alcohol building and other mosque into skin square instead of leaving some greens and then middle of the city of istanbul all of this is a clear indication how far how pervasive the party has has come and that is what has started to worry that many many turks specifically the academic community who feel that turkey it is no longer the guy in a democracy they were hoping for but he has a slide it so a back so much back that this what happened now it is only the initial manifestation of that kind of resentment and i secretly believe this is good the

beginning and certainly not the end. beginning of the end if we go back to london just go ahead. yeah i do believe we have to be very careful in actually demanding the overthrow democratic democratically elected government which has which have a mandate by the people and have been elected through the ballot box to overthrow them by in cabbage ing people term and it can hardly take that street to overthrow or throw them on not saying what democrats. are trying to define it's right. and i don't think he's acting democratic i think that doubt is getting it too is that he has just been practiced what he preached to but sharp and to maliki by listening to their people and respect the will of the people but overthrowing democratically by taking to the streets and actually the way this was going and hearing to what the americans want is to completely wrong. ok michael no i'm saying

what i'm saying with i am saying you know we are not advocating that these that mr can or should you have over there are a democratically elected government what i am saying is that comes next election. prime minister should no longer feel that he's a shoo in and he's going to win the presidency that's who are saying he is now anything the junk general public and that is where the problem is lies and that's where his concern should be and this is the issue that his we now need to address and address it seriously in order to change the public to his narrative and not speak one way and act in a different way and that is a problem that everyone has today michael what about the military are they going to feel them bold and right now. military well actually i would just like to speak something else about first he doesn't he has a very hard skin and he refuses to accept criticism i was imprisoned sic i know something i never go for and i don't know a college i know

a large picture of him and actually the case was after four trials i was acquitted then six months later the court in ankara said no he should have been acquitted we will reopen the case so i was retried and found guilty of insulting the judge from his just for a collage caricature showing him talking about the military i think the military would actually be on the side of the people we were talking about the military who are the the boys who are drafted into the army they have no choice actually that is another thing that we can criticize not just only add on but talking about we should not have a draft in a civilized democratic country so anyway i would say that the general soldiers would be on the side of the people in this matter so i think they would be our friends so i do get it i think it makes a sense it's going to feel if you are there you know ten seconds i go ahead ten

seconds thought it. was a military goal i think i only read and read it might not think it is the brand would feel that they have actually won their people about their true colors so that's really just going to general meeting where they run out of time i'm very sorry many thanks to you to my guests and what you did to stamboul and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time and remember rostock rules. for you the only thing we want. is a. oh . the worst you're going to say the. white house to give it to a radio guy and pull up

a minestrone they all want to watch videos of you never seen anything like that i'm cold. country's. millions of victims every year. the most.

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you live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food i since tried to get you know how bad the less bad luck i got so many i mean i have managed to sound silly as i'm still really messed up. in the old series so closely. the. worst year for the little. white house of a. radio guy in fort lauderdale minestrone that i want to watch closely because you never seen anything like this son so. what's up guys i mean martin and this is breaking up the set just the right this week.