there was great there. was that the pope comes too late and with good intentions. charity diplomacy and business to. follow in welcome to cross talk are all things considered i'm peter lavelle turkey in turmoil a sudden upsurge in intensity of protest against the turkish government has caught many by surprise particularly prime minister aragon are we witnessing still another arab spring play out or is it more simple than that is it all about eric and his politics and political style.

protests in turkey i'm joined by alone ben mayer in washington he's a senior fellow at new york university's center for global affairs in stamboul we have michael dickinson he is a writer and artist and in london we crossed his i had to leave he was a political analyst and a writer right gentlemen crossed that means you can jump in anytime you want to find go to you first in london the prime minister the turkish prime minister was in the u.s. at the brookings institution at the beginning of last month he said turkey's in the news everyone's talking about turkey not in the way that he had hoped. definitely not in the way he hoped he was basically pointing out that democracy well established democracy that he has managed to. put the old. politics and it was emerging as an economy power and he hides the mandate democratic mandate of the people to. i have spoiled that time and time and that's

why i wouldn't call it similar to an arab spring because unlike the arab spring which was launched and wait but that people against dictatorships which wedding egypt tunisia tunis here also yemen and it's still going on against the dictatorship and also against. dictatorship as well isn't democracy but i do believe that a gun has shot him in the foot he is fighting with one hand tied behind his back because he has encouraged people in iraq which is again another more christian maliki was elected through the ballot box he encouraged people and sidelined with the protesters and took them to avoid and sweep under the carpet all democratic mechanisms that is going through the parliament and also going against maliki in another general election elections opposing and he cut them to defy him to increase why didn't the demonstrations and he also have to kill fusing. brutal ruthless

crackdown i think a lot of people. a lot of people michael them going there michael how do you see things going on in turkey go ahead first go ahead michael. in what way i mean. when is going wrong what's gone wrong why the protests. well where do you start i mean. there are protests all around the world and they are also in america you remember the occupy what happened to them they were also suppressed by the american police were they not this time the turkish police are in hiding now for the last couple of days because they came out with full force with this tear gas against poor people who were sitting out in apparent park to try to save the trees which are going to be stripped off the one of the only green parks in the center of

istanbul but that's just wrong thing but they used the police actually very start to do it and they always do with their brutal treatment they just fire these two guys without thought whole city was full of it and the people thought but this time and now for the last two days the streets of central istanbul are empty of police i don't feel so safe without alone how do you see things going on in concert going alone in my head you know what i think i think we have to look at the situation in turkey from about a larger perspective what happened in taksim square is that in my view was only the trigger days there has always been for the last three four years at least a very simmering anger by the significant majority in there and that within the turkish community against what they see as

a growing authoritarian regime yes. it was elected three times perhaps because of that the government is now has been behaving in a very arrogant manner. he himself said when you win an election in a democrat. take away you have a majority that's what matters but how you implement democratic reforms how you go about it in the first the first six seven years i think turkey under one meant tremendous progress and social reform political reform certainly economic reforms but then they've begun to slide and that is what has been happening i have been in turkey scores of times in the last several years and i can tell you when i see it in my own eyes the difference between what it used to be and what it is no one people begin to fear to speak in public sitting in a restaurant they don't want to speak because somebody might hear what they are talking about when journalists are in jail when hybris of the military are all

under house arrest by fifty sixty of them you must question where turkey is heading i have been a great admirer of to himself but i think turkey no longer can offer an mmog of democracy to the arab world and i think it has failed miserably in that regard and i do not believe that what we are seeing today is going to be quelled this is a very soon and that's going to be the end of the story this may very well be the beginning there so it's a really good place to do it let me let me go to london you know heads i jump in the beginning of something or not go ahead i do believe all those are a hugely important factor is my my my colleague has unfit sites the policies i do have to emphasize that his foreign policy how spectacularly failed spectacularly backfired and we are seeing now the fight and backlash to those policies a pretty canadian tell policy on syria he used to preach and lecture that shot and

i said on how to deal with dead people how to treat people on the how not to use massive disproportionate force we are seeing do it seeing him doing the exact things that he told pressure on that side and you also. please you are now the q. who has been elected through again democratic process and the other accused him of monopolizing and accumulating titanic powers and these are the very accusations leveled against him by his own people but let me add on top of that here it's all those he actually be siding with be a with qatar who are dictatorships and trying to use the same the same let's say extremist hardline policies adopted by so again in actually supporting arming financing paying salaries unprecedented move to the insurgents who happen to be in that vast majority that's according to the you not only new york times experienced what harvey said if it's

like you just have to run and we have seen the york times saying that all the money all the funding all the arming the absolute majority of that plate into the hands of actually turning out to the. most i mean you're here let me go to michael to let me go to michael how much over the years going to jump in michael go ahead. you know i was going to say i mean about people responding in not they're not whispering in cafes at the moment they are out on the streets who are shouting devarim which means revolution and. their government must resign and they are shouting this at the tops of their voices the people are so happy with this idea i don't know what's going to happen but i would just like the moment when the whole streets of. our occupied by people such up stalls were giving way free food there are going songs they're having lessons and

things like that. it's going to take a lot for this to be cleared up for a moment at the moment it is on hold and not on a holiday sort of his visiting africa morocco or something of what he's coming back tomorrow as it were something he said are. this cleared up by the time i get back but i think it was very little or nothing airports are and didn't how it should come into the country himself and while i don't think it's going to go down this is it it's a go ahead go ahead jump in there you know this is exactly this is exactly the point you know here you have a prime minister who has done so so much in the past now he's seeing these demonstrations and instead of focusing and trying to deal with it the same that arrogance has been applied to it by simply saying i'm leaving this is really nothing of consequence he called the demonstrators about horrible names and then he said by the time i come back on this a big career that shows you how dismissive he has been but i want to echo one other

point that was made by my colleague from london you know the so-called zero zero zero problem with neighbors which was admired when it was first initiated now i ask myself the question which neighbor turkey does not have a problem with and this is this is another collapse of the turkish foreign policy and if you look around turkey all the various countries perhaps except for some with georgia turkey has a problem with all of these countries so what you see that the collapse of the foreign companies and only those countries have problems with their government so what can i add to this please go ahead you have been. going to london does it make things right i mean it's a valid question it's a valid question we can see clearly that is actually toeing the line and getting even closer to becoming less chest and closer to a life replacing mubarak as the bulwark that always saudi arabia and qatar have

needed in carrying out its policies so he is bringing techie closer into being the instrument of saudi arabia and qatar in implementing their policies in standing up for minting and instigating that sectarian year old when he has because i think this is just a bump and. internal risings in that country and let me add to that it was also the bombing that took place in techie not words that have stirred up shock waves and set alarm bells in jacket that jet back to north and al qaida the taliban been given the entry and takis paintings i mean all of them to me go back to you on the record i don't look like i'm thinking along the same page and jumping literally go to the break go ahead let me let let me just say something you know i think when to say when you're saying this. alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia egypt and qatar this is i call it allies of convenience because i think that bigger picture is that what you have who are not egypt aside what you have here is that

the. conflict in syria really has two dimension one is one is between you and i to say to russia to some extent but the other one which is either group greater much more serious and much deeper along with the situation here gentlemen we have to go to a short break and i want to continue our discussion of what's happening in turkey state are. releasing.

the civilized world produces more food. people die of hunger in other countries. millions of victims every you. where meal is the most of.

these flood or droughts to blame. it was a bad year without a train. we couldn't plods anything but that. there was great hunger. is a good help comes too late and with good intentions. diplomacy and business to. see a story and it seems so. think you understand it and then you glimpse something else. and realized everything you thought. was a big picture. you

know really really the only thing. is. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the up people in turkey. all right gentlemen before going to the break was a bit heated there in along you said during the break do you want to finish your point so please do sir. you know i really don't want to talk about syria what i'm

saying is the connection is there that this so-called alliance of convenience between turkey saudi arabia and other course imagined by my friend in london is that there is this conflict that is there really is reduced to the shiite and sunni and the two key in this particular respect would like to take the lead and its appeal to the arab street has backfired the arab street in the wake of the of this so-called arab spring it took it felt it's going to have inroads in the arab street as a matter of fact i believe that sacrifices relation with israel as a result of that hoping to be able to assume the leadership of the region and that too has failed so when you look around you see that you are the one with the best of his intention what happened is that domestically he's back slighted foreign policy back and now in the effort in the wake of what happened in syria he's also failing miserably ok michael if i go back to you in istanbul a lot of people would say that the islamic politics is what puts so many people off

in turkey can you speak to that. yes actually enough of this. basically. says la la la la no continue and so you know how much is his profit but you don't need to say that anyway if you just say la la la there is one god we are all the children of god there is no need for separate religions like catholics and protestants and what a lot of people on the ground on the way do they and i fortunately. found ok go ahead in london jump in. yet another factor has been actually the kurdish issue a lot of people in turkey have perceived it or viewed it as owed to gun him so he has and overarching goal to actually become again and he has sold out all made concessions to the terrorists that is their peak in order to win them over to

change that constitution to allow him to make changes that will in the long run how all the cards the kurdish cards and we've seen him play an instrumental role in actually breaking up the alliance between the kurds that the regional government in iraq that this region and the shia alliance and deflates it biased alliance between turkey and between their carrots and actually showing them all. easing. that reliance forgive pendants on the evocate central government and that has been dramatically spared on and encouraged by the kurds and by. the saudis and also the qataris in order to drive a wedge between the kurds and the central government in iraq to weaken and destabilize the central government in iraq in all of that basically to make it easier to topple but shut it i said because their strategy has now changed their you want to weaken iraq because they can see that iraq and that's even the end

marriage. given that we lie to the soviets and qatar is dramatically destabilize and we can iraq so that it cannot act as the supporter or backup to that shot it said that is the new policy adopted by of the gun is what's the concern how is the big government going to move forward now in turkey i can what you think i can just hear i've only got one what are they going to actually i think they should be kicked out as the people are demanding they should resign and also i think people should get to know this we're talking about arab spring we're talking about revolution we're talking about world revolution actually look people are rising and they should kick out these tyrants these poor tunes these are sides there is. no arms and let's have a real democracy where people have a voice for our people so you may have voted for the man had elections over and over so what do you think about this and i can i just say go ahead jump in and just

say what we are witnessing yeah what we're witnessing and what we're seeing on the ground is that dangerous president that all get dug on has started by actually encouraging people who have been encouraging people to take to the streets and defy democratically elected government as he has done explicitly in terms of iraq and when i hear that people are saying that again putin isn't describing putin as a dictator that is another dangerous president that is encouraged and sped on by the americans so one way that you have a democratically elected government like in the case of putin they simply encourage people to take to the streets to do fight and to overthrow and we don't see them implementing that on the streets of america if that is the case then they should actually listen and hear to their demands explicit demands by many american people who've taken to the streets now that starts putting their money where their mouth is and we not seeing them that doing that when there are staunchest and closest allies are the major anti-radical regime. what you have described people who have

taken to the streets asking for democracy at ten minutes that's explicitly what the interior minister and minister in saudi arabia are calling them then you terrorists and they will be treated that terrorists have been treated so how do you know your name change something you've mentioned saying i'm not going to alone is this a cultural war being fought out because i've been to turkey many times and there are many different turkeys. it's not monolithic well you know i think the one factor we have to emphasize here is the growing pervasive repeat the pervasiveness of the party you know nowadays if you want to be appointed to a high political position you better have a very strong religious credentials this is what worries me what worries many european allies of the of turkey and i must tell you also there is the current tremendous strain between turkey and the united states notwithstanding their public narrative in terms of grocers across alliance cooperation and all of that but this

tremendous strain because the united states has been talking to the turks in this regard you know arab wine only a year ago were saying we have to protect every single me is the freedom of speech and freedom of movement freedom of this what he's now doing is doing precisely the opposite banning for example the serve alcohol building and other mosque and just good square instead of leaving some greens and then middle of the city of istanbul all of this is a clear indication how far how pervasive the party has has come and that is what has started to worry that many many turks specifically the academic community who feel that turkey it is no longer the guy in a democracy they were hoping for but he has a slide it so about so much back that this what happened now it is only the initial manifestation of that kind of resentment and i secretly believe this is a good

a beginning and certainly not the end. beginning of the end if we go back to london to voters in london tonight i do believe we have to be very careful in our demanding to overthrow democratic democratically elected government which has which have a mandate by the people and have been elected through the ballot box to overthrow them by in quetta aging people term and it can hardly take that street to overthrow or throw them on not saying what democrats. are supplying literally fine it's right . and i tell you i don't think he's acting democratic i think up out it's getting to it too is that he has just been practiced what you preach to the shop and to maliki by listening to their people under spectating the will of the people but overthrowing democratically by taking to the streets and actually the way this was going and hearing to what the americans want is to completely wrong ok michael no i'm saying what i'm saying i with i am saying you know we are not advocating that

these demonstrators can or should you have over there are a democratically elected government what i am saying is comes next election. prime minister should no longer feel that he's a shoo in and he's going to win the presidency that's who are saying he is now anything the junk general public and that is where the problem is lies and that's where his concern should be and this is the issue that he is now need to address and address it seriously in order to change the public with his narrative and not speak one way and act in a different way and that is a problem that everyone has today michael what about the military are they going to feel them bold right now. military well actually i would just like to speak something else about first he doesn't he has a very hard skin and he refuses to accept criticism i was imprisoned sic i know something i never go for and i don't know college and i know the large picture of him and actually the case was after four trials i was acquitted and

then six months later the court in ankara said no he should have been acquitted we will reopen the case so i was retried and found guilty of insulting the tow trucks promise just for a collage caricature showing him talking about the military i think the military would actually be on the side of the people we were talking about the military who are the the boys who are drafted into the army they have no choice actually that is another thing that we can criticize not just only add on but talking about we should not have a draft in a civilized democratic country so anyway i would say that the general soldiers would be on the side of the people in this matter so i think they would be our friends going to. take them so it's going to feel if you only hear you now ten seconds later go ahead ten seconds thought it. was

a minute or your life i think i am we might not think it is them brenda would feel that they have actually won their people about their true colors so that's really going to gentle lady when they run out of time i'm very sorry many thanks for you to make it and watch it in december and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here markie see you next time and remember rostock rules. for you the only thing we want. is a. well . science technology innovation all the latest developments from around

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free. oh i'm sorry but i washington d.c. and here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture. according to a public health officials a new virus spreading through the middle east in europe is possibly a threat to the entire world what should you know about a disease some are calling the new sars last dr anthony fauci of the national institutes of health in just a moment also for people who supposedly hate the government years there are subsidies certain justification for their use of taxpayer money or are they just. talk about that and more liberal rumble and with the passing of frank lautenberg america has lost more than a man it's lost a worldview.