individual rights it would help to actually teach children what those rights are but that's just my opinion. well. technology innovation all the latest developments from around russia we've got the future covered. hello and welcome to cross talk are all things considered i'm peter lavelle the u.s. government versus private first class bradley manning what is his trial all about protecting state and military secrets for a show trial scapegoating one individual does this trial send

a chilling warning to would be whistleblowers and to journalists and what does aiding the enemy mean in the age of the internet. to cross out the bradley manning trial i'm joined by my guests in washington barry he is the washington d.c. director of code pink and we also have david sheldon he is an expert in military law all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage and tell you if i can go to you first as this trial started we knew bradley manning is going to sort of it least twenty years in prison so what's the point of all these other charges twenty years is a long time. well i think the government is trying to scapegoat bradley manning trying to get more time out of this they're looking to get a life sentence i'm sure that they're not going to try and kill bradley manning but i think that the government is trying to send

a chill across all levels of society such as are our media those whistleblowers within government that want to blow the whistle on. expense accounts inside of certain organizations in the united states that are you buz ing their rights it's time for this government to use the evidence that they have which is very little the fact of the matter is bradley manning had access to millions of documents and he only chose to release seven hundred thousand of these documents he was very scrupulous in the way he chose to release these documents not to harm anybody the government is claiming that he put people in the manger i can't even produce no evidence ok david how would you respond to them ok very little evidence here and we know this man is going to get at least twenty years in prison well i think there's a number of different responses one can give first of all it seemed to contradictory to say that there's very little evan twin. mr manning specialist

manning. hundreds of thousands of documents communiques from the united states of the highest level and certainly that warrants severe punishment now whether the case of not death qualified it had the. death the government simply wants to bring this case to trial i'm not suggesting that there's over overreaching by the united states in doing so one of the questions that i have is where the supervisors of specialist manning why have we not seen those people come to task because this individual did not simply. arrived in iraq in a vacuum he was there he was being supervised there was a shop there was a code what happened how did the process break down and why are those people being held accountable well time i think he did talk to his superiors to me i mean that's

part of the evidence isn't it willie he did also the fact of the matter was they said it recently came out there was a very lax environment in there people were listening to music playing videotapes they were. using these these documents haphazardly and i think bradley manning came in there and saw what was going on and he was very concerned about what he saw were war crimes that were taking place inside the field about the arena of war which is was iraq in afghanistan and he also saw the the united states double speak through these releases of the embassy e-mails i think that nothing he's done or anyone here give us and the other thing is. ok david jump in i'm going is bradley manning high from this. if i may if i may i think that you have to distinguish this case from what you've referenced earlier

about people disclosing expense accounts or something like this we're talking about very very high love a communique i think you have to distinguish between the merits of disclose your versus the merits of doing your job as a specialist to protect the interests of the game at a high level if you're going to games that embarrassing the government well exactly david most of these were just saying we were just to various thing. should someone go to life imprisonment or embarrassment go ahead david. well. i don't think that that's what specialist manning is going to go to jail for specialist manning is going to go to jail for violating his contract with the united states his representation of the united states as an army so we're drawn to that what he's going to jail for and and certainly he put people at risk in fact wiki leaks redacted much of the information that specialist manning put out there and

specialist manning did not do that he's not a control source you know if you want to compare him to the one the one shred of evidence that bradley manning put anybody at risk david i'd love to see one shred of bradley manning put anyone at risk if he if they had this evidence he would be getting life in prison and the fact the matter is bradley manning pleat pleaded out to some lesser charges because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in jail and the united states government in this kangaroo military court knows that they have all the power in their hands and his lawyer obviously told him that he had very little chance of escaping this without going to prison is what which is our wishes but he should plead to these lesser charges and then let the government prove these more expansive charges that he aided and abetted that he and all the you know i didn't. i mean if that's the case for me and if you get on the internet

by years i haven't. had david go ahead that happens every day in every american corps in this country and to suggest that this is a kangaroo court is not well advised this is the king this is a court that is subject to the federal rules of evidence of the uniform code of military justice the military rules of evidence all of this is within the confines of the military justice system and it is by no means that i can this is what i could. i'm not suggesting i am not suggesting that the court is advised to take matters in secret and their class of disclosure where. in essence a close court i think that that transparency and to the extent the state i don't think it that bites but in the case to me that there are very serious.

information that is being disclosed that in the national interests and that's judges don't simply close the court in this country because they want to avoid embarrassment of the united states that's not what any fortunately the national interest has a bad information that's being disclosed i tell you go ahead. jump in unfortunately national interest has been combined with now with corporate interests we don't know where the interests lie anymore because we spent last year fourteen billion dollars classifying information in this country i know for a fact that they classified the diameter of a humvee truck tire so i think that with the overclassification bradley manning could be. charged with aiding and abetting i think you're going to be a paper clip to somebody who happened to be. according to someone these we saw what happened in the military courts down in guantanamo they couldn't get convictions because they don't work there they're not using evidence they're not

using proper. judges are throwing these things out bradley manning was tortured again and i think they're going to have a problem with that david you want to go ahead. submit that the military justice system has responded the judge in fact has awarded article thirteen court punishment credit for specialist manning it's not figments again for one hundred some days that's significant for all intents and purposes but to suggest that he was twenty three years i think. suggests to suggest well many people who are on trial for very serious crimes remain in incarceration for one q three years it happens all the time in this country and throughout the world i do want to say one thing and i do agree with you to an extent i do think that the procedures that are in place down then get mo are undermining the national interest

i do not think that there is transparency i think there's an undercutting of the six of them right to counsel i think that that is wrong i think that we play by the rules of the uniform code of military justice i would even go so far as to say we should bring these people to trial in me and i did states. where the federal rule time evidence applied i could have and i mean let me ask you right. ok david go ahead jump in reply. well one thing i'd like to point out is it seems that this court because i was in the courtroom there in fort meade and it seems like they're trying to build a case against julian assange and wiki leaks case against manning and when you eat leaks and it seems it seems to me that bradley manning the reason they've held onto him for three years and to bring him to court and the judge threw out hundreds of motions by the defense is that they are they're trying to script

a way to get what they want this doesn't seem to be trying to get to the truth trying to get the facts of the matter this seems more like well this is what we want to get out of it and let's keep in mind that barack obama obama has tried and punished or tried to punish more whistleblowers since he's been president than all presidents combined this president has gone out of control trying to stop leaks it's a putting a chilling effect on our investigative reporting it i was just listening to someone the other day telling me that. glenn greenwald sources are being targeted so that he can't get any more phone calls and this is horrible for the american public this is horrible for transparency i think this kills our democracy and bradley manning is a hero in my in my view go ahead reply go ahead before we go to the break go ahead . and we certainly appreciate your views but i think none the less when

one violates federal law when one ends path with upholding the constitution then protecting the interests of the united states bring that person to task bring that person to court bring that person to hear the evidence against them to be able to challenge that evidence it's all about transparency and that's what's happening at court today. this is gentlemen i mean there's just been i need to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break and answer that shows. we'll continue our discussion on the bradley manning trial state party. news for you the only thing. is.

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back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the bradley manning case. ok david i'd like go back to you in washington bradley manning has admitted to breaking the law ok but he did a social good is well he exposed war crimes and that's a good that's good for american democracy good for american foreign policy in the long term because there's accountability how do you react to that. i think one can view a specialist manning case in a variety of different ways and certainly that's what he can be compared to daniel ellsberg from the one nine hundred seventy s. i think that that only goes so far i think ellsberg was more targeted he seemed to disclose his papers to the washington post and new york times to be. what we now live in an internet age where wiki leaks takes. advantage of this information and

discloses it nonetheless the united states has proper every right to want to try to protect it and its national interest. communicates and that can be used in a way that will endanger the national interests and i think that's what's going on here i want to go back to a white guy said you know and i think they don't really want to even finish what david finish go ahead david please do. well i was just going to say to the extent that you are correct that president obama has taken that stand to try do you go after individuals who've leak that is certainly true and i agree with you that that does raise a huge. obviously concern a number of different people as the front page of the washington post today when apparently and the say is unhappy and disclosing telephone records international i am with you i mean as you all of us said this and i predict that that's very

troubling for democracy and i think that we have to be very very cautious about how we proceed and i think this administrator and i it's ironic that i like your age and that's taking these type of but thank you for saying this go ahead jump in please do but i'd like to i'd like to bring up a couple of points of you a couple examples one john kerry he's spending twenty four months in jail today because he revealed that he witnessed torture and he was trying to get the torture in front of a judge well the torture meanwhile writes a book that's a bestseller on the new york times book list this is wrong when. torture gets millions of dollars and the guy who reveals the torture goes to jail this is the same case now we were talking about bradley manning before the break where you were saying you know he admitted to some crimes again yes he admitted to

some crimes i say time served and you brought up daniel ellsberg daniel ellsberg recently said the only way he could reveal these documents that he had he had one chance and one chance only he had to bundle them up and get out and get this information out and it's the same with bradley manning there was no window to sit around and we threw these things although bradley manning did we through the process the defense has shown proven that bradley manning was a very. careful in what kind of information you release and i think that bradley manning should be commended for n. new to the iraq war ok david here the specialist manning has ended the iraq war i would venture to say that we haven't seen the end of the iraq war certainly the civil war and civil strife that's going on there to agree but i think that your point is well taken one sense but i totally disagree with you i think bradley specialist manning was basically used as

a do by wiki leaks and i think that they took advantage of him i don't think he had the expertise in terms of being able to decide nor did he have the authority to decide to release hundreds of thousands of pages of communiques of the united states he simply didn't have that we're going to see a war crime you don't have to say this is good and this is not ok but sorry if you would be ok i believe it when you go ahead go ahead go ahead. david when you witness a war crime you don't need expertise to show that there was a war crime committed when he revealed the thing that really angered this ministration when he revealed the collateral damage video that showed a reuters reporter was killed by our helicopters and that they were flippant about how they had just killed a bunch of people and there were children and in this in this vehicle this is this was wrong we needed to see we need to see more of these things so we can understand

what's going on in the theater of war when we go into places like iraq and afghanistan and other places around the world this is a very chilling. take away which we live in job in here who are going to be let me jump in here david the gentleman the people the soldiers that were involved in that video conducting it are they on trial for committing war crimes and if not why is bradley manning on trial i don't see. fortunate bradley manning done well i think there is always disproportionate within the justice system i think that this administration as administration has tried to hold soldiers and marines and sailors accountable for their actions that's what happened yesterday at fort lewis mccord in washington state when sergeant bales pled guilty to the worst war atrocities that happen do you think you will get a lawyer do you think you. being you think you will get life. in will i represented

special i represented specialist barker who pled guilty to perm meditated murder of four iraqis he received a ninety year sentence by per pretrial agreement the individual who actually was the trigger person received life he actually did not even receive the worst punishment which was life without parole i think specialist manning will not warrant that type of severe set and even if the united states proves the ultimate charges that would take place saying see if you can kill anyone he didn't kill anyone time you want to jump in well i also don't think that i believe that is we and the murders that took place inside iraq gave it one second we saw many many murders take place inside iraq and we saw a soldier after soldier be released time served let's let him go dishonorable discharge we saw that in the sort of square massacres no one is gets tried this is

this is wrong and we will be paying for these debts a long time to come you will see an american president come out some day and apologize for everything we did in iraq and this is going to happen you know this and i know this in the future we will be apologizing for the war crimes we've committed in iraq and this is an opportunity to have a truth and reconciliation conversation time. use bradley manning as as a person that we can use as a a as a hero so that we can start these talks about what we want to see out of our military david jump in go ahead i don't think. i don't think this specialist manning is a hero i also don't think that he is a spy i don't think he's the next aldrich ames i don't think he's a clean lone tree i don't think he is a walker he is an individual who is taken advantage of i think that that will be

reflected in his sentence i think that he has been willing to plead guilty for the crimes that he committed to the extent that he will that statement who took advantage of you this is an aid b. but. again i think you're saying you're saying julian a songe see if that's what i'm saying i would say this is a julian assange about wiki leaks this has nothing this is just an. actor. so that they can. talk about but the abhisit who are in the case. oh they'll see i mean they don't you people they say it is you after the case ok when it's time to i go ahead david david let me just say many people say shouldn't the new york times or the washington post who revealed the same knowledge of the same information that bradley manning and shouldn't they be on trial as well and i say absolutely not this is freedom of press this is freedom of information this is over

. classified classification of information and this government needs to be held responsible when it commits war crimes this government needs to be transparent when it could when it starts and finishes a war we need to know what took place and we as a community so that we can make decisions as a community as a democracy do we want to be involved in this what's going on how do we best proceed because you want me to tell you some of the pundits are on the sunday talk shows every single day that got it all wrong these guys are telling us again and how they got no response to go ahead david go ahead. well realize that but realize where you're at and who you're talking to you you're talking to people worldwide and you're talking about a critical a hugh which i think. you're correct on there is overclassification there is a tension between the fourth that states and the press being able to get access to

information there is tension in terms of releasing of documents i agree wholeheartedly on that but i do think that you have to give credit where credit is due in the moment the massacre's all of the individuals who are participating and went to jail for at least ninety years they received at least ninety year sentences i think that that says a lot they will go to jail for the rest of is the life that the law now am i suggesting to you that there isn't some medium ground some atmosphere where specialist manning is held to task which he himself as agreed he himself has agreed that he should go to jail for a very very long period of time for the crimes he committed i don't think bradley manning is there now getting your gridley manning admitted david well i mean bradley manning admitted to something so that he could like it to like you said takes place all over the united states every single day these plea agreements where

somebody comes out and says well you're going to face thirty years or we're going to give you ten years or three years and here take this and admit to that and people admit to guilt all the time so that they because they don't have the finances they don't have the ability to fight big government and this is what we're looking at we're looking at we're looking at a closed system of military court we're bradley manning has very little choice very little chance of getting out the information that he wants to get out to the american public and that's what he said he never said i need to go to jail for a long time can you sit on and just start a conversation if you need to conversation we need a conversation about what took place in iraq why we went to. war and why we went to war in afghanistan and why we're still there in afghanistan all right gentlemen to frame a shadowy discussion we have run out of time many thanks to my guests today in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here next time and remember across the top rules.

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her. coming up serve beilin so overloaded and i say it out be i scandals keep coming out of the shallows beyond just phone tracking we've learned that the internet activity is also a target of spying on us a lot to discuss on this topic just ahead president obama and chinese president xi jinping embark on a historic meeting at the top of the agenda cyber security and hacking and how it's connected to national security will have a preview of that meeting the noida cops in new york and you could soon face jail time and he works state senate has just passed a bill that makes it a felony to harass or annoy officer but what about your first amendment right will look at that later on in the show.