this year but probably by two thousand and four ties we have to leave it there thank you a lot of great information that was supposed to prime interest hereon boring and prime interest producer bob english well that's going to do it for n l for more on the stories we cover go to you tube dot com slash r t america see you back here at eight. technology innovation all the developments around. the future are covered.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the u.s. government versus private first class bradley manning what is his trial all about protecting state and military secrets for a show trial scapegoating one individual does this trial send a chilling warning to would be whistleblowers and to journalists and what does aiding the enemy mean in the age of the internet. to cross out the bradley manning trial i'm joined by my guests in washington barry he is the washington d.c. director of code pink and we also have david sheldon he's an expert in military law all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage and tell you if i can go to you first as this

trial started we knew bradley manning is going to sort of it least twenty years in prison so what's the point of all these other charges twenty years is a long time. well i think the government is trying to scapegoat bradley manning trying to get more time out of this they're looking to get a life sentence i'm sure that they're not going to try and kill bradley manning but i think that the government is trying to send a chill across all levels of society such as are our media those whistleblowers within government that want to blow the whistle on. expense accounts inside of certain organizations in the united states that are you buz ing their rights it's time for this government to use the evidence that they have which is very little the fact of the matter is bradley manning had access to millions of documents and he only chose to release seven hundred thousand of these documents he was very

scrupulous in the way he chose to release these documents not to harm anybody the government is claiming that he put peaceful people in the manger i can't even produce no evidence ok david how would you respond to that ok very little evidence here and we know this man is going to get at least twenty years in prison well i think there's a number of different responses one can give him first of all it seemed to contradictory to say that there is very little evan twin. mr manning specialist manning. hundreds of thousands of documents communiques from the united states of the highest level and certainly that warrants severe punishment now whether the case is not death qualified it's not the. death the government simply wants to bring this case to trial i'm not suggesting that there's over or not overreaching by the united states in doing so one of the questions that i have is what where are the supervisors of specialist manning why

have we not seen those people come to task this individual did not simply. arrived in iraq in a vacuum he was there he was being supervised there was a shop there was a code what happened how did the process break down and why are those people being held accountable well time i think he did talk to his superiors to me i mean that's part of the evidence isn't it. he did also the fact of the matter was they said it recently came out there was a very lax environment in there people were listening to music playing videotapes they were. using these these documents haphazardly and i think bradley manning came in there and saw what was going on and he was very concerned about what he saw were war crimes that were taking place inside the field about the arena of war which is was iraq in afghanistan and he also saw the the united states

double speak through these releases of the embassy e-mails i think that nothing he's done or anyone here of good and the other thing is. ok david jumping is bradley manning from this. if i may if i may i think that you have to distinguish this case from what you've referenced earlier about people disclosing expense accounts or something like this we're talking about very very high love a communique is i think you have to distinguish between the merits of disclose your versus the merits of doing your job as a specialist to protect the interests of the game if you're going against it and bear and the government well exactly david most of these were just saying we were just to paris thing. should someone go to life imprisonment or embarrassment go ahead david. well. i don't think that that's what specialist manning is going to

go to jail for specialist manning is going to go to jail for violating his contract with the united states his representation of the united states as an army so we're drawn to that what he's going to jail for and and certainly he put people at risk in fact wiki leaks redacted much of the information that specialist manning put out there and specialist manning did not do that he's not a control source you know if you want to compare him to the one the one shred of evidence that bradley manning put anybody at risk david i'd love to see one shred of bradley manning put anyone at risk if he if they had this evidence he would be getting life imprisonment the fact the matter is bradley manning pleat pleaded out to some lesser charges because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in jail and the united states government in this kangaroo military court knows that they

have all the power in their hands and his lawyer obviously told him that he had very little chance of escaping this without going to prison is what which is our wishes but he should plead to these lesser charges and then let the government prove these more expansive charges that he aided and abetted that he and all the yes i did and that was it for me i mean if you get on the internet by years i haven't. had david that happens every day in every american corps in this country and to suggest that this is a kangaroo court is not well advised this is the king this is a court that is subject to the federal rules of evidence of the uniform code of military justice the military rules of evidence all of this is within the confines of the military justice system and it is by no means this is what i. could. i'm not suggesting i am not suggesting that the court is. to

take matters in secret and their class of disclosure where. in essence a close court i think that that transparency and to the stand the state that i don't think it that buys but in the case to me that there are very serious. information that is being this close to that in the national interests and that's judges don't simply close the court in this country because they want to avoid embarrassment of the united states that's not what i need fortunately david the national interest has a bad information that's being disclosed i tell you go ahead. jump in unfortunately national interest has been combined with now with corporate interests we don't know where the interests lie anymore because we spent last year fourteen billion dollars classifying information in this country i know for

a fact that they classified the diameter of a humvee truck tire so i think that with the overclassification bradley manning could be. charged with aiding and abetting i think you're going to be a paper clip to somebody who happened to be. according to someone these we saw what happened in the military courts down in guantanamo they couldn't get convictions because they don't work there they're not using evidence they're not using proper senior judges are throwing these things out bradley manning was tortured again and i think they're going to have a problem with that david you want to go ahead. do you submit the military justice system has responded the judge in fact has awarded article thirteen court punishment credit for specialist manning it's not significant for the hundred some days that's significant for all intents. purpose but to suggest

that he was twenty three years i did i think. suggests to suggest well many people who are on trial for very serious crimes remain in the incarceration for one q three years it happens all the time in this country and throughout the world i do want to say one thing and i do agree with you to an extent i do think that the procedures that are in place down and get mo are undermining the national interest i do not think that there is transparency i think there's an undercutting of the six of them right to counsel i think that that is wrong i think that we should play by the rules of the uniform code of military justice i would even go so far as to say we should bring these people to trial in me and i did state support in a federal district where the federal time evidence applied i could have and i mean let me ask you right now ok david go ahead jump in reply. well one thing i'd like to point out is it seems that this court because i was in the

courtroom there in fort meade and it seems like they're trying to build a case against julian assange and wiki leaks case against the manning and we eat leaks and it seems it seems to me that bradley manning the reason they've held onto him for three years and to bring him to court and the judge threw out hundreds of motions by the defense is that they are they're trying to script a way to get what they want this doesn't seem to be trying to get to the truth trying to get the facts of the matter this seems more like well this is what we want to get out of it and let's keep in mind that barack obama obama has tried and punished or tried to punish more whistleblowers since he's been president than all presidents combined this president has gone out of control trying to stop leaks it's a putting a chilling effect on our investigative reporting it i was just listening to someone

the other day telling me that. glenn greenwald sources are being targeted so that he can't get any more phone calls and this is horrible for the american public this is horrible for transparency i think this kills our democracy and bradley manning is a hero in my in my view go ahead reply go ahead before we go to the break go ahead . and we certainly appreciate your views but i think none the less when one violates federal law when one ends path with upholding the constitution then protecting the interests of the united states bring that person to task bring that person to court bring that person to hear the evidence against them to be able to challenge that evidence is all about transparency and that's what's happening at court today and they're cut all right this is gentlemen i need to jump in i need to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break and after that show. we'll continue our discussion on the bradley manning trial state party.

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welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the bradley manning case. ok david i'd like go back to you in washington bradley manning has admitted to breaking the law ok but he did a social good is well he exposed war crimes and that's a good that's good for american democracy good for american foreign policy in the long term because there's accountability how do you react to that. i think one can

view specialist manning case in a variety of different ways and certainly about what he can be compared to daniel ellsberg from the one nine hundred seventy s. i think that that only goes so far i think ellsberg was more targeted he seemed to disclose his papers to the washington post and new york times to the extent that we now live in an internet age where wiki leaks takes. advantage of this information and discloses it nonetheless i think the united states has a proper and a right to want to try to protect it and its national interest. communicates and that can be used in a way that will endanger the national interests and i think that's what's going on here i want to go back to a white guy said you know and i don't really want to even finish what david finish go ahead david please do. well i was just going to say to the extent that you are correct that president obama has taken that stand to try do you go after

individuals who leak that is certainly true and i agree with you that that does raise issues. with. obviously concerned a number of different people as the front page of the washington post today when apparently and the say is and have been disclosing telephone records international am with him that all of us said this and i think that that's very troubling for democracy and i think that we have to be very very cautious about how we proceed and i think this administration i mean it's ironic to this that i like your age and that's taking these type of but thank you for saying this go ahead jump in please do but i'd like to i'd like to bring a couple of points i'm going to give you a couple examples one john kerry he's spending twenty four months in jail today because he revealed that he witnessed torture and he was trying to get the torture in front of a judge well the torture meanwhile writes a book that's

a bestseller on the new york times book list this is wrong when. torture gets millions of dollars and the guy who reveals the torture goes to jail this is the same case now we were talking about bradley manning before the break where you were saying you know he admitted to some crimes again yes he admitted to some crimes i say time served and you brought up daniel ellsberg daniel ellsberg recently said the only way he could reveal these documents that he had he had one chance and one chance only he had to bundle them up and get out and get this information out and it's the same with bradley manning there was no window to sit around and we threw these things although bradley manning did we through the process the defense has shown proven that bradley manning was very careful in what kind of information he released and i think that bradley manning should be commended for n.

new iraq war ok david here the specialist manning has and the iraq war i would venture to say that. we haven't seen the end of the iraq war certainly the civil war and civil strife that's going on there to agree but i think that your point is well taken one sense but i totally disagree with you i think bradley is specialist manning was basically use of the duped by wiki leaks and i think that they took advantage of him i don't think he had the expertise in terms of being able to decide nor did he have the authority to decide to release hundreds of thousands of pages of communiques of the united states he simply didn't have that we're going to see a war crime you don't have to. this is good in this is not ok but i'm sorry if you want to be ok i believe it when you go ahead go ahead go ahead. david when you witness a war crime you don't need expertise to show that there was

a war crime committed when he revealed the thing that really angered this ministration when he revealed the collateral damage video that showed a reuters reporter was killed by our helicopters and that they were flippant about how they had just killed a bunch of people and there were children and in this in this vehicle this is this was wrong we needed to see we need to see more of these things so we can understand what's going on in the theater of war when we go into places like iraq and afghanistan and other places around the world this is a very chilling. take away which means you have been here me let me jump in here david the gentleman the people the soldiers that were involved in that video conducting it are they on trial for committing war crimes and if not why is bradley manning on trial i don't see. fortunate bradley manning done well i think there is always disproportionate within the justice system i think that

this administration as past administration has tried to hold soldiers and marines and sailors accountable for their actions. that's what happened yesterday at fort lewis mccord in washington state when sergeant bales pled guilty to the worst war atrocities that happen do you think you will get a life do you think you. being do you think you will get life. in will i represent that special represented specialist barker who pled guilty to perm meditated murder of four iraqis he received a ninety year pretrial agreement the individual who actually was the trigger person received life he actually did not even receive the worst punishment which was life without parole i think specialist manning will not warrant that type of severe set and even if the united states proves the ultimate charges that

they claim can kill anyone he didn't kill any one time you want to jump in well i also don't think that all of that is we and any murders that took place inside iraq david one second we saw many many murders take place inside iraq and we saw a soldier after soldier be released time cerner let's let him go dishonorable discharge we saw that in the sort of square massacres no one is gets tried this is this is wrong and we will be paying for these debts a long time to come you will see an american president come out some day and apologize for everything we did in iraq and this is going to happen you know this and i know this in the future we will be apologizing for the war crimes we've committed in iraq and this is an opportunity to have a truth and reconciliation conversation use bradley manning as as a person that we can use as a a as a hero so that we can start these talks about what we want to see out of our

military david jump in go ahead i don't think. i don't think this specialist manning. as a hero i also don't think that he is a spy i don't think he is the next aldrich ames i don't think he's a clean lone three i don't think he is a walker he is an individual who is taken advantage of and i think that that will be reflected in his sentence i think that he has been willing to plead guilty for the crimes that he committed to the extent that the united states who took advantage of you this is a nate b. but. again i think you're saying you're saying julian a songe see if that's what i'm saying i would say this is a julian assange about wiki leaks this is nothing this is just an. actor. so that they can talk about it. talked about but the idea is if you are in the case

. then see i mean they don't you people and they say if she does you advocate ok when it's time to go ahead david david let me just say many people say shouldn't the new york times or the washington post who revealed the same knowledge of the same information that bradley manning and shouldn't they be on trial as well and i say absolutely not this is freedom of press this is freedom of information this is over. classified classification of information and this government needs to be held responsible when it commits war crimes this government needs to be transparent when it could when it starts and finishes a war we need to know what took place and we as a community so that we can make decisions as a community as a democracy do we want to be involved in this what's going on how do we best proceed because you want me to tell you some of the pundits are on the sunday talk shows every single day they got it all wrong these guys are telling us again and

they. had david go ahead. realize that but realize where you're at and who you're talking to you you're talking to people worldwide and you're talking about a critical a huge which i think that you're correct on there is overclassification there is a tension between the fourth that state and the press being able to get access to information there is tension in terms of releasing of documents i agree wholeheartedly on that but i do think that you have to give credit where credit is due in the moment the massacres all of the individuals who are participating in that went to jail for at least ninety years they received at least ninety year sentences i think that that says a lot they will go to jail for the rest of the life that the law now am i suggesting to you that there isn't some medium ground some atmosphere where

specialist manning is held to. ask which he himself as agree he and self has agreed that he should go to jail for a very very long period of time for the crimes he committed i don't think bradley manning is rationing and i think you're grimly manning admitted david well i mean bradley manning admitted to something so that he could like it take like you said takes place all over the united states every single day these plea agreements where somebody comes out and says well you're going to face thirty years or we're going to give you ten years or three years and here take this and admit to that and people admit to guilt all the time so that they because they don't have the finances they don't have the ability to fight big government well and this is what we're looking at we're looking at we're looking at a close system of military court we're bradley hit remanding as very little choice very little chance of getting out the information that he wants to get out to the american public and that's what he said he never said i need to go to jail for a long time can you sit around and just start a conversation if you need that conversation we need that conversation about what

took place in iraq why we went to war and why we went to war in afghanistan and why we're still there in afghanistan all right gentlemen for a mission i want any discussion and we have run out of time many thanks to my guests today in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember cross talk rules. you know we've received. well. technology innovation all the developments around russia we've got the future covered. you know sometimes you see

a story and it seems so for like you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. which.

you live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food because you know how fabulous bad luck. i mean i have my hands down i believe that i've seen a really messed up. and very so closely. the. worst for the missing flight out soup of the day radio guy in court today ok minutes from a quick coffee i want to watch quote we're about to do because you've never seen anything like this i'm told. what's up guys i mean mike walker breaking the set since it might as well be called a freaky.