controversial here at the moment i don't think we're talking about it a lot more remote partly because it has become politically very sensitive. the outcome of the next general election in britain in twenty fifteen could well hang on the number of people that come here when our labor market labor market is fully open to them from remaining in bulgaria beginning of next year which political parties if any actually on point with this issue right now on i think one of the big stories of british politics in the last generation is that the gap the difference between left and right is narrowed the gap between the whole political class and the ordinary voter has widened and immigration is a sort of emblem of the widening it applies to other areas too like well for europe . and these are issues that labor in particular is rather sensitive on rather exposed on the instinct and intuition to. m.p.'s and activists are often a mile away from from the ordinary even the thing conservatives tend to be closer

to wouldn't vote for me just the support michael the security identity issues. what exactly do you mean by that what is the. bridge dream is that it's about. borrowed from the idea of the american dream the idea that you can be a success for an open multi-racial society you need to tell yourself stories about . the need to tell yourself stories about. stories about good immigration about successful. minority people who are you know being contributing to britain not damaging the interests of the people already here . we do have plenty of those stories we have more stories like that in many ways than america which for all of its strengths remains a very. racially divided and open eyes. very violent society and i don't

think we want to go down that road to the paradox is that we need to borrow some of the american language in the talk of the easy talk about treaties and american nationalism. manages to include almost all people that go to america we need to borrow some of that language in order to avoid american outcomes you could take a nice thing to pinpoint that in your opinion it's a great poor nationalities in which society doesn't necessarily ensure a richer life and critics would say that that overlooks the fact that integration of the sea provides great security and this is a sort of back but welfare state what do you say to that and of course you know if you know people are coming from poor countries it means you become richer and more secure but nobody can reasonably start from the point of view of the world as a whole well some people do on the lots of people in the academic world some people

on the sort of course important left of politics to do you know who are what i call the global village is we're not a global village we understand beings we are generally moral particularised you know or allegiances sort of flow from family and friends to the nation to the whole world not the other way around and it doesn't make sense some of you if you believe in the existence of the nation state which i do i think in states. the world would be a godly place actually it would be like ninety four with these are great blocks without any siani or and so on without any accountability and. you know democracy requires relatively small manageable units in which people speak the language and understand the world would really be a terrible place for nation states i think nation states remain the foundation of most of the political good in the world but if you can help nation states there has to be you have to put the interests of fellow citizens first otherwise what's the point of being a national. if you find that you all rights are over ridden by the rights of

somebody with whom you feel no allegiance from a distant part of the world what are your thoughts on the labor market being eight and up to remaining in some bug area well i mean it's hard. it's hard to stop it i mean we were probably still part of the european union. you know this was this was you know britain in the rules that way back in nineteen fifty seven the positivity of rome is free movement and i think it's been. it's been wrongly interpreted in the sense that it was never intended in ninety seven that the european union should be an economic space which included. countries or groups of countries with standards of living average standards of living you know one fifth the one quarter rich countries like britain. and free movement in that context is completely different to free movement as it is in practice happened

between one hundred fifty seven and the early two thousand hardly anybody lived permanently in another european state i think i think is no point one percent of the population live permanently in the year two thousand permanently in another e.u. state do you see that as part of the problem they that was dealing with the immigration she came here first also having to balance with our commitments to the island at the big shock the big negative shock particularly for people in the poor people in britain was would be opening to east europeans and the remaining ball garion think it's a sort continuation of it's a sort of it's a sort of late phase of the two thousand and four opening. so it's too late to stop it but you can you can try and sort of demagnetize the country as much as possible and britain is a very attractive place to come for all sorts of reasons i mean part of the english language. partly because we are pretty tolerant country where there are lots of money or to group. already. there already two hundred thousand people here from

romania and bulgaria who've come under various temporary work schemes or because they are self employed or because they have a they've had a work permit or something that has allowed them to come. and i think the how you prevent the big increase is a sort of technical question in a way and that we simply won't we won't know and i think it's quite likely that many people will come because unlike in two thousand for all the other countries wrote me off at the same time many remain in zimbabwe areas have closer connections to other richer you states than they do to bring. all those things were slightly ugly all of the sort of moaning about remaining well gary and on actually all the host of publicity may have put people off coming which i when i see him is part of the point it makes light of the place to stay what would you like person to wake up to when it comes to race. and when people celebrate for example london is a great multicultural city. bought london has experienced

a huge amount of what's called white flight. lower income white people mainly in the suburbs leaving london because they think it's changed too fast for them and that does include. the changing ethnic composition of the places they live and i don't think you can say london is a successful city if you know between twenty two in two thousand and one and two thousand and eleven six hundred twenty thousand what british people left the capital that's one of the reasons why london is now a majority minority city quite unexpectedly and only academics picked this up because they weren't watching the outflow it's easy enough to track the inflow. but they don't live in places like barking and dagenham and redbridge where. this was happening. and i think we do need to worry about you know if we do we want to we want to islands. society well i think you know on integration most people have. a

kind of conflicting intuitions and on the one hand we think that people on the whole want to live at least much of the time amongst people who are roughly like them can evolve over time and become broader but i think we also think that a healthy society is one where there is a lot of communication and contact across ethnic and and and social boundaries and we're not seeing enough of it in britain i mean we do have i think an integration problem so i think that's not just an issue with time and patience it is partly you know i mean time and you can see that already with more successful groups in the suburbs of north west london where you have lots of you know british do indian professionals you know living in same suburbs. white counterparts. but then there are certain groups mainly less successful groups who are not

integrating so far as i know it may be that they're just you know generational too behind the optimistic story and it may be true but even for them i think you know it wouldn't home to speed it up with the nineteen when it comes to how britain's handling the issues immigration in particular how do you view our relationship with the e.u. is contributing or not is the case maybe it's part of the point of the euro was to disperse german power. to. to prevent the rise of of nationalism in europe and it's done precisely the opposite on both fronts we have seriously serious national resentments particularly those countries like greece that have had policies imposed on them by by brussels and berlin and the the the way that the euro has developed has also given all power in europe essentially to the german chancellor. david cameron in his speech

a couple months ago on europe declaring there would be a referendum a couple of years off the next election and this further reinforced but i'm he has handed britain's destiny in europe to anglo-american by saying we're going to renegotiate the terms of britain's membership of the european union after which i will present the this these new terms to the british electorate in the hope that they will approve them and we will stay in european union but he will decide what whether we get what we want or anything that is presentable as some call him to. victory to the electorate it's it's probably on the medical or whoever is is the german chancellor and twenty something they thank you very much for joining us.

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