sports is one of thirty two to be awarded this prize of this year. that doesn't for now you can follow me at twitter on twitter m underscore j underscore how i'll see what i say. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm charging welcome to the big picture.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle whistleblower stephen prince but we are told every society needs them to expose the excesses of those in power the reality is very different though if you're someone like bradley manning or edward snowden you literally take your life in your own

hands the message is clear obey and be silent or face dire consequences. to cross-talk whistleblowers i'm joined by elizabeth team in washington she is the co-director of the liberty international security program at the brennan center for justice also in washington we have michael cohen he is president of the national whistleblower center and in london we cross to charlie wolf he is a writer broadcaster and political commentator crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to listen if i go to you first in washington d.c. are whistleblowers an endangered species right now no not at all ok i think there will always be in every society people who are going to come forward if they have something to to report you know but the costs are pretty high my costs are high and getting higher to. the concert getting very high if you look at someone like bradley manning i don't think it's it's not easy to imagine

a situation in which someone has been more harshly treated by the criminal justice system and yet that did not prevent edward snowden from coming forward and even from identifying himself so i think right there that's proof that even aggressive crackdowns on leaks are not going to prevent them from happening well if i can say with you do you think that mr snowden learned from bradley manning i mean he's changed the tactics a bit. i'm not sure if i don't i'm not able to speak to that i don't know if i'm from bradley manning or not what i would say is that i think of anything. to crack down on leaks it may be skewing the leaks that we're seeing toward the more extreme and large scale because if you're going to give up everything if you're going to give up your freedom give up your life as you know it you might as well go for broke ok michael what do you think about that going for broke it looks like both these men have done that but what you have is in december . all the laws are protected national security whistleblowers to go forward were

wiped off the books so there's really no avenue and yes when someone is raising such serious concerns at the head of the national security agency is lying to congress where else are you supposed to go then to the american people who need to have that to bait to see if their government is in fact on a student living up to the dreams that our founding fathers wanted it to so whistleblowing requires a balance and when you have someone who is morally. in the hot seat and doesn't believe they can believe go forward with what their government is doing they will become whistleblowers and as long as they have an understanding of what a free society is and they want to add to a free society and that's been the history throughout our nation and nothing is going to stop that what what is happening is the laws are becoming more restrictive end and the definition of national security is broader and broader to the point

where you can you can't talk about anything without being threatened with going to jail and that's not the hallmarks of a free society charlie it seems like the system is broken here from what we just heard because who do you go to. go ahead and let me preface first let me preface first by saying. as much as we may end up debating and shouting at each other before the end of the broadcast in essence i think we're probably as americans all engine. and real agreement yes there is a need for whistleblowers we may define whistleblowers differently or whether someone like edward snowden makes that determination or not but yes you know i think we all support whistleblowing we all support being free citizens in a free country and guarding our constitution and guarding important article zora or amendments like the fourth amendment on search and seizure but i think there are huge of difference the nuances of difference i don't think whistleblowing used for instance is a story here in london that you may or may not be familiar with a whistleblower disk come up this week his name is peter francis this man was

working as an undercover cop in a very famous murder trial against a young man was a racial killing stephen lawrence and this man francis was employed by the met to go undercover to work with. the sort of the anti capitalist groups and what have you and to then spy on the lawrence family to gather dirt to smear them well this man is not sitting in a prison he's a hero and the. national security is it i mean that's a different kind of whistle blowers and it's well it's an important it's an important it's still holding government to account it's holding a very important one of the government the police force to account now i think in the case of mr snowden at present i don't see any malfeasance i see someone with a policy disagreement which is fair enough we all have the right to speak on those i haven't as of yet seen where there has been in the busa of power and i haven't seen the need for why he has stolen documents which at the end of the day is what

he has done he's not exposed to anything he's been under under an oath is as a contractor the u.s. title law and he's broken that oath and of scotland it off to china and to russia so you know again if he's worth his salt as a whistleblower this is a man that should be standing up on the steps of the capitol building ok listen if you think he could have done that we're here where you can say ok listen please go . i'm not sure i can i understand. what you mean when you say he hasn't exposed anything i mean we can argue about whether he exposed in the right way we should we can argue about how to handle information that is contained in classified documents that might reveal some government wrongdoing i want to take notice and he said he didn't expect oh i you don't have to tell us who did it he said it's a house let's let it go higher authorities don't have to do is have a reasonable belief that we that the information you're just closing reveals some kind of government wrongdoing i'm an attorney who has spent a lot of time thinking about and looking about section two fifteen of the patriot

act he absolutely had a person absolutely could have a reasonable belief that the mass collection of all of americans telephone records goes against the plain language of section two fifteen of the patriot act there's simply no dispute that that it is reasonable to question the legality however you come down ok michael you want to jump in there go ahead there's nothing going to my total that's going to my call everybody most important for time let it go ahead michael hold up most importantly he raised raise a concern that the head of the national security agency mr clapper general clapper made false statements to congress and the only way the american people have the right and the ability to judge if that is true is the release of those documents he engaged in from what i can see as an american citizen a quintessential first amendment freedoms that i need to know to make sure my government is not abusing its power if someone can lie to congress that he has to

get away with it without having. the constitution is above that oath and the problem is there has to be a little bit of the constitution and all of that was a pretty growing look at the law. which will always have been stripped away there is no balance when government gets so corrupt that it's spying on its own people we need the american citizens with the nuffin tegra. to come forward and expose it and as long as we have we will be a free society the day they hide behind the trappings of law to keep the truth when the american people. should lose is a big bundle of freedom charlie go ahead jump in but look part of charlie look at the case very carefully i have not seen you may not like the program and its a fair policy debate but this is something that came under the bush administration a republican administration was then carried on after a normal hot election by a democrat a ministration it had oversight of the congress it's had oversight by the judiciary

so the constitution is what's supposed to protect us in the long. wave. it's going to lose the people we have in power not all of it i haven't seen yet any abuse no you know you may argue as to what is protected. information what is not my understanding telephone records to all phone numbers is not protected under the fourth amendment so until i see something that's sort of going to go then yeah go ahead go ahead jump in let's make this let's make this concrete let's make this concrete section two fifteen of the patriot act allows the government to get a court order to require a telephone company or any other company to produce any tangible thing as long as that thing is relevant as long as the government has reasonable grounds to believe that that thing is relevant to an opera as to foreign intelligence or international terrorism investigation i have not heard

a single plausible argument for how every americans telephone records every single one of them is relevant to an authorized foreign intelligence investigation i know this was signed off on by a secret court which heard only one side of the story only one set of facts and is not subject to appeal i know this was signed off on by the intelligence committees who have a history of signing off on what the executive branch. secrecy that does not if those facts do not make it legal ok charlie you want to react to that. well you know again we also have to realize that i still fall by the constitution and the law of the land and i have been disturbed by this but also you have to understand peter you're going to secrecy secrecy secrecy well yes there has to be some secrecy that has to be a real there has to be counted to you and so we're going to have to be a curious situation about accountability oh well again you're accountability is the oversight from the judiciary so i think the conditions have been that what what

disturbs me what disturbs me is why mr snowden would find it necessary to go off to places like china or to russia which is well that's changing the subject that's. quite a trip down the freedom trail is really it's to changing the subject that's all you know they were going to roll it was a little return on what we're going to be doing and i think that it was so little they would jump in elizabeth going i am not saying that everything that edward snowden did is just fine i am not saying any of that what i am saying is that this country badly over classified information keeps things my chief secret and there is no legal method right now for somebody who comes across government misconduct in a classified document to bring that to the public's attention and that is a major problem for transparency and accountability and the rule of law in this country or i'm going to jump in here we're going to get i was short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on whistleblowers stay with our.

here is mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call a dog. i'm sorry i'm just a guy who cares an awful lot about my country music stars are if you know what kind of mind their terrorist cells he doesn't want to keep us safe to feature isn't he a liberal the christian point you. can stick your beliefs about as. you know the corporate media distracts us from what you and i should care about

because their profit driven industry that sells of sensationalistic garbage because of breaking news i'm not a martin and we're going to break that. let me let me i want to know what all let me ask you a question. here on this network as we're having a debate we have our knives out if. we bring you this right it's a bad thing never again you're in a situation where b. and i don't agree to talk about the name and me. wealthy british style sun. sometimes it's just for.

markets why not come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike stronger for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into.

the shoes. could you take three. or chargers free. range from three. three. two to three. hold free board video for your media project free media party dot com. hello and welcome to cross talk all things are considered i'm peter lavelle whistleblowers in prince but we are told every society needs them to expose the

excesses of those in power the reality is very different though if you're someone like bradley manning or edward snowden you literally take your life in your own hands the message is clear obey and be silent or face dire consequences. to cross-talk whistleblowers i'm joined by elizabeth team in washington she is the co-director of the liberty international security program at the brennan center for justice also in washington we have michael kahn he is president of the national whistleblower center and in london we cross to charlie wolf he is a writer broadcaster and political commentator cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to listen if i go to you first in washington d.c. are whistleblowers an endangered species right now not at all ok i think there will always be in every society people who are going to come forward if they have something to to report yeah but the costs are pretty small my costs are high and

getting higher to. the costs are getting very high if you look at someone like bradley manning i don't think it's it's not easy to imagine a situation in which someone has been more harshly treated by the criminal justice system and yet that did not prevent edward snowden from coming forward and even from identifying himself so i think right there that's proof that even aggressive crackdowns on leaks are not going to prevent them from happening well listen if i can stay with you do you think the mr snowden learn from bradley manning me he's changed the tactics a bit. i'm not sure if i don't i'm not able to speak to that i don't know if i'm from bradley manning or not what i would say is that i think of anything. crackdown on leaks it may be skewing the leaks that we're seeing toward the more extreme and large scale because if you're going to give up everything if you're going to give up your freedom give up your life as you know it you might as well go for broke ok michael what do you think about that going for broke it looks

like both these men have done that but what you have is in december. all the laws of protected national security whistleblowers to go forward were wiped off the books so there's really no avenue and yes when someone is raising such serious concerns at the head of the national security agency is lying to congress where else are you supposed to go then to the american people who need to have that to bait to see if their government is in fact on a student living up to the dreams that our founding fathers wanted it to so whistleblower and requires a balance and when you have someone who is morally. in the hot seat and doesn't believe they can believe go forward with what their government is doing they will become whistle blowers as long as they have an understanding of what a free society is and they want to add to a free society and that's been the history throughout our nation and nothing is

going to stop that what what is happening is the laws are becoming more restrictive end and the definition of national security is broader and broader to the point where you can you can't talk about anything without being threatened with going to jail and that's not the hallmarks of a free society charlie it seems like the system is broken here from what we just heard because who do you go to. go ahead go ahead and let me preface first let me preface first place saying. as much as we may end up debating and shouting at each other before the end of the broadcast in essence i think we're probably as americans all in general. yes there is a need for whistleblowers we may define whistleblowers differently or whether someone like edward snowden makes that determination or not but yes you know i think we all support whistleblowing we all support being free citizens in a free country and guarding our constitution and guarding important or amendments like the fourth amendment on search and seizure but i think there are huge of difference the nuances of difference i don't think whistleblowing used for instance

there's a story here in london that you may or may not be familiar with a whistleblower that just come up this week his name is peter francis this man was working as an undercover cop in a very famous murder trial against a young man was a racial killing stephen lawrence and this man francis was employed by the met to go undercover to work with. sort of the anti capitalist groups and what have you and to then spy on the lawrence family to gather dirt to smear them well this man is not sitting in a prison he's a hero and the evidence wrong it's not national security is that i mean that's a different kind of whistle blowers and it's well it's an important it's an important it's still holding government to account it's holding a very important one of the government the police force to account now i think in the case of mr snowden at present i don't see any malfeasance i see someone with a policy disagreement which is fair enough we all have the right to speak on those

i haven't as of yet seen where there has been an abuse of power and i haven't seen the need for why he has stolen documents which at the end of the day is what he has done he's not exposed to anything he's been under under an oath is as a contractor the u.s. title law and he's broken that oath of scandal off to china and to russia so you know again if he's worth his salt as a whistleblower this is a man that should be standing up on the steps of the capitol building ok elizabeth do you think he could have done that where can i you can say ok listen please go. i'm not sure i understand what you mean. when you say he hasn't exposed anything i mean we can argue about whether he exposed in the right way we should we can argue about how to handle information that is contained in classified documents that might reveal some government wrong to have been exposed and he said he didn't expect oh i you don't have to tell us what it is he's going to doing that let's let it go higher authorities have to do is have

a reasonable belief that we that the information you're just closing we're feel some kind of government wrongdoing i'm an attorney who has spent a lot of time thinking about and looking about section two fifteen of the patriot act he absolutely had a person absolutely could have a reasonable belief that the mass collection of all of americans telephone records goes against the plain language of section two fifteen of the patriot act there's simply no dispute that that it is reasonable to question the legality however you come down ok michael you want to jump in there go ahead and that's not the state of my soul that's one of my call everybody most important for time let it go ahead michael hold up most importantly he raised you raise a concern that the head of the national security agency mr clapper general clapper made false statements to congress and the only way the american people have the right and the ability to judge if that is true is the release of those documents he engaged in from what i can see as an american citizen quintessential first

amendment freedoms that i need to know to make sure my government is not abusing its power if someone can lie to congress but he has to get away with it without having. the constitution is above that oath and the problem is there has to be a little bit of the constitution and all of that was a first growing look at the law. which always have been stripped away there is no balance if when government gets so corrupt that it's spying on its own people we need the american citizens with enough integrity to come. forward expose it and as long as we have we will be a free society the day they hide behind the trappings of law to keep the truth when the american people. should lose is a big bundle of freedom charlie go ahead jump in but look part of charlie look at the case very carefully i have not seen you may not like the program and its a fair policy debate but this is something that came under the bush administration

a republican administration was saying carried on after no hard election by a democrat a ministration it's had oversight of the congress it's had oversight by the judiciary so the constitution is was supposed to protect us and the law. we. are going to lose the people we have in power not all of it i haven't seen yet any abuse no you know you may argue as to what is protected. information what is not my understanding telephone records to all phone numbers is not protected under the fourth amendment so until i see something that sort of massive of course i'm going to go then yeah go ahead go ahead jump in let's make this let's make this concrete let's make this concrete section two fifteen of the patriot act allows the government to get a court order to require a telephone company or any other company to produce any tangible thing as long as that thing is relevant as long as the government has reasonable grounds to believe

that that thing is relevant to an opera as to foreign intelligence or international terrorism investigation i have not heard a single plausible argument for how every americans telephone records every single one of them is relevant to an authorized foreign intelligence investigation i know this was signed off on by a secret court which heard only one side of the story only one set of facts and is not subject to appeal i know this was signed off on by the intelligence committees who have a history of signing off on what the executive branch secrets secrecy that does not if those facts do not make it legal ok charlie you want to react to that. well you know again we also have to realize that i still fall by the constitution and the law of the land and i have been disturbed by this but also you have to understand the thing peter you're going to secrecy secrecy secrecy well yes there has to be some secrecy there has to be a real there has to be counted and so we're going to have to be a curious situation about accountability oh well again you're accountability is the

oversight from the judiciary so i think the conditions have been that what what disturbs me what disturbs me is why mr snowden would find it necessary to go off to places like china or to russia which is well that's a subject that's. quite a trip down the freedom trail is really it's to changing the subject that's all you know there are literally drove it was the overturning that were going to have nothing to do with the letter they would jump in elizabeth going i am not saying that everything that edward snowden did is just fine i'm not saying any of that what i am saying is that this country badly over classified information keeps things my chief secret and there is no legal method right now for somebody who comes across government misconduct in a classified document to bring that to the public's attention and that is a major problem for transparency and accountability and the rule of law in this

country or i'm going to jump in here we're going to get i want short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on whistleblowers stay with our. because. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you

glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big picture.

to live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food because you know how fabulous bad luck i got so many i mean. i know i'm seeing the same thing really messed up. and we're all very so personally apologize and. worse you're going to fly down sort of a. radio guy in fort lauderdale minutes from a cricket. club or a politician because you've never seen anything like this i'm telling. you what's up guys i'm having martin this is breaking in the set so lesson of the day of her.