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hello and welcome to all things considered i'm peter all about obama's africa the u.s. president's trip to this continent is criticized by some as too little too late indeed washington continues to be seen by many africans as a source for outside democracy promotion and the creeping militarisation of the continent obama is calling card has always been hope but is he bringing much hope to africa. to cross-talk obama's trip to africa i'm joined by richard downie in washington he is the deputy director and follower of the africa program at the center for

strategic and international studies also in washington we have clarence to seyne he is a professor of international relations at the american university and in johannesburg we cross to. he's an advocate and member of the muslim lawyers association in south africa gentlemen the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it if we go to you first in south africa in johannesburg is obama bringing much hope to africa. one mean president obama. up to. we have legislation called the implementation of their own statute which basically mystic aids. legislation and allows a so there flick in court to try obama for war crimes or to be for him to the international criminal court and the muslim lawyers association have in this

respect submitted to the prosecuting authorities in the police what is known as the obama docket and then docket essentially is for ject of we have presented evidence that obama is guilty of walk crimes against humanity and genocide we have done so first because we believe it is our religious duty to speak out against a tyrant like obama to hold him accountable for his claims second we have done so in order to bring justice to the victims of years of indecision spore to see the victims of torture and detention policies such as those in. and the victims of these incineration policy when i mean when i say incineration policy i talk of the sport and using drones because that's what it does own does it incinerates a human being and we want. to hold leaders such as obama accountable we want to test the rule of law we want the rule of law to apply equally to a king and to a pauper and finally we want obama to be brought before

a court of law to answer questions we want him to answer why did he incinerate a sixteen year old child a u.s. citizen in yemen by using drones claimed it ok what are. your characterizing his entire foreign policy american foreign policy here but richard if i could turn to you and focus a little bit more on the africa trip is obama bringing much with him to africa because a lot of people say bush in him even clinton did a lot more in five years. well first of all i would respond and say. he's certainly entitled to make broader points about u.s. foreign policy in the world. ask him to take a look closer at home in south africa and it's really the evidence of us development assistance is all around us is ploughed billions of dollars into africa . under president bush and continued by president obama into the treatment of hiv

aids which has been a scourge in particularly in southern africa and south africa so there is a lot of good the united states is doing in the african continent so. yeah of course. jump in there because the fictive man is a large check book in a big wallet if you see any of the pics what you would be seeing use it we must be guilty of corruption the fact that a man is a large checkbook in a big wallet does not give you my license to use the entire world. to murder innocent civilians ok richard you want to reply to that i think that's yeah i think that's a rather cynical view to say that just because united states has a large checkbook that's why it's getting involved somehow trying to buy loyalty i think there is a genuine humanitarian driving force behind a big project like the president's emergency plan for aids relief that was driven by a humanitarian agenda more than anything else ok it's fortunate the united states had

money to spend on a program like that but i don't think it's doing it to win favor around the world ok clearance or jump in the troops to not go to clients go ahead. yeah i think it seems to me that the pick up some continuity from a great degree this is the continuation of the bush policies and the clinton policies and i would underscore that to say that this trip is not a game changer and so. there's more symbolism i think going where all of this trip substance. i think it's important to know that the obama administration has also had some constraints in terms of what he could do over the last few years when obama came into office he certainly had to deal with two wars he had to deal with a financial and economic collapse and so those put constraints not only on obama's

relationship with africa but with latin america other parts of the world now given that though it doesn't excuse what is essentially been four years of mostly neglect of what's been going on in africa and part of it has been because it's been a strategy that hasn't focused on addressing the really serious and tough issues across the region but looking at leaders it has a what it calls a young african leadership initiative is focused think has been misplaced and it hasn't taken the responsibility to deal with the tough issues for rules may overstate the case so now i think there are a lot of issues with the obama foreign policy the drone issue being certainly one of the well but i cannot say that obama is the same i'm not going to take this and i'm not a take sides here but i mean obama's drawn policy drone policy is coming to africa

as we speak. today i was actually visited because. i was going to say that because obama is running their own policy in somalia and years black sites in somalia and the people who are surrounding us to this. in so there are many people in the us journalists what kind of future this man bring to the world we don't want to use money i want a world where the model very use that are going to be able to we be able to have a world which is peaceful we are going to be able to have a world where we can hear with children being safe now to morrow obama can come with his checkbook but if he doesn't like one of my friends what you can do is send it don't kill him and kill everybody around him. if you want to jump in in washington please do yeah yeah i was hoping to jump in there i think we need to be

careful as we talk about africa as. you say you know the america does this in africa and china does that in africa well you know i think we should bear in mind that africans have their own agency in the process very good sort of. people i mean . it's all very well in south africa to talk about drones and we can we can talk about that but south africa doesn't face threat from serious threat from terrorism whereas countries like mali countries like somalia do and actually you know as the conflict broke out in mali last year in that region if you're appealing to you know if you're going to be just militarily. go ahead if you. are doing is that. america suffers a threat from terrorism why doesn't the man respect the rule of law if somebody is guilty of them why can't america with all its but when might capture the person

give the person i trial you haven't done some something so basic even serial killers and rapists are entitled to that basic decency ok means things are not ok clarence go ahead you want to say something please do. africa is not monolithic it's certainly there are a wide range of circumstances facing people across the region in some areas or to points out the issue of terrorism is not an issue for the us is an issue for people in countries like in mali and in other parts of africa and other countries where there is more stability is not that is sure there is a problem i think where the us over the last ten years has focused on the militarization of the region versus really dealing with investment dealing with development issues so that really is kind of a problem but i think we can generalize and the drone policy i think does deserve criticism but that's not all of the u.s.

foreign policy towards africa and i think we need to see. africa ok johannesburg ahead of the between your value system with respect to difference between your value system and in the value system of my organization is that we do not believe that the welfare comes from obama or america we believe it will fix comes from court we believe that god looks after those who are just this man is a dictator a tyrant and we don't want his money richard let's talk about the agency actually i mean. the discourse changed enough you know where it's not giving help it's helping people help themselves and we turn the corner there on the. issue. well i think this is an important point and this the perhaps the primary aim of this trip is to shift the narrative somewhat from the perception of the united states as a country that sees africa as a constant needs stuff that needs help that needs assistance so

a more mature grown up relationship of equals in which america sees africa as a continent of opportunity where money can be made in business we're going to. benefit with. you in the american. government ok richard you want to finish it was it. let me let richard finish i think we're going the break go ahead. please richard no yeah fair time so certainly certainly it's not my it's not my job here to defend u.s. foreign policy and of course it was agreed just that back in the eighty's and so very very late on the united states was supporting the apartheid regime it viewed the continent very much through a cold war lens and yet and still is suffering justifiably ill feeling from south africa to this day as a result the united states. are. going to going to be if you gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go

short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the obama's policy on the state with our team. the legal. the worst year for the was the only white house of the day the radio guy in fort lauderdale minestrone classic i want you to watch closely to do because you've never seen anything like this this time selling.

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iraq. coming on the tarmac. prime minister. which. why. coming up. next. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle mind you we're discussing obama's trip to the african continent.

ok clarence if we can change gears here a little bit in reading mainstream media about this trip a lot of people are saying it's a day late and a buck short because the chinese are already in africa in a very big way and the americans are far behind when you think about that. that's true and it's not just the chinese it's also the brazilians it's also the indians it's also the south koreans so there's been a recognition i think much of the world that the african people thought of ten years ago twenty years ago as corrupt as full of wars. in the nineteenth century is not a view this held by much of the other developing countries in the world and other countries particularly the bric countries brazil russia india and china are also

not include south africa so there's a sense by much of the investing world that africa really is a very different place and that if you go around the continent they are economies that are growing education is growing there's more of a commitment to democracy we see transitions in terms of. verses. so i think that's where the united states comes in a bit late particularly not just at the level of policy but even at the popular level in terms of how people in the united states think about africa but also what do you think about that because people look at the africa is the new great game. you see what is important i think when you have foreign investment in any place you cannot distinguish between your desire to extract profits from the country in the mortality that you bring to the country it's not possible to distinguish between

the two if you take foreign investment u.s. investment in this country it's been largely one sided into the benefit of the u.s. because if you go for example to a place like rustenburg where the mines operate what has been done for the people there they still live in shanty towns and anybody just should go to a place like rustenburg or should go to a place like really where there's been foreign investment in the people on the ground they have not filled any benefit from foreign investment all. these people are talking about and i go back to what i'm saying is that it is not right to divorce foreign investment from the more of those who want to come here to be morally upright human beings otherwise they are splitting the wrong message to the children of this country and to the children of africa richard what do you think about that i mean the united states is considered a laggard when it comes to investing in africa i mean is it because it's been

focused on military and security too much. i think primarily it's been focused on the down side on the threats and the problems of africa too much in development so most of its money and spending in africa has been on development programs but i would say that i go back to my earlier point in terms of. africans feeling the benefits of trade and. the response to frozen is point trade is a two way thing so should we blaming u.s. companies or chinese companies for their lack of domestic development and investment in places like rustenburg no and. you know these these primarily responsibilities for african governments so i would argue that trade and investment is a good thing for africa. provided african governments are smart. you know getting good deals for themselves and their countries it's up to

them to extract. the maximum. speed. doesn't come for free it never comes to free trading with the united states means you have to give up something ok ok. i think what we're getting is. dish analogy is to work here ok clarence that's a good point but i think for ruth is correct in the past if you look to in the cold war for example the conditions under which it was deliberate was based on you siding with the us against the soviet union after september eleventh for about the next ten years the conditions were getting a word that you opened up to security concerns of the united states where obama could turn the page which is where we look at china and when we look at brazil is

that you don't have those kinds of conditions and it becomes a much more even kind of fair negotiation that has for talks about there are benefits on the ground for people across the region when you have investment when you have development when you have a train that has to be the place that turns as we move forward now hopefully that's what obama will be talking about in the people who are traveling with the business leaders the corporate leaders that they will be talking to a very different kind of relationship has existed up to now richard you in a way and on that condition let me get a little watching giving it a red haired time. i would just address that. conditionality well actually in a very literal sense the trade for south africa united states does come for free. africa growth and opportunity act which is the big sort of trade policy framework for africa south african firms have jussi free access to the u.s. market in about six thousand products so they've actually done very very well even

though south africa is really not a developing country like many others in africa from this very preferential trade agreement with the united states of course there are much more. for you right if you want to trade with the u.s. you must do the world view of security you must buy in to their will to their war otherwise they will not plead with you that's the bottom line and we cannot trust mr obama because every time he said something he lives he said he's going to close guantanamo bay in years and so if he comes it makes falls to the people of africa we not going to buy it ok clarence if i go back to you i mean let's look at mr obama as a person a lot of people say he didn't really weigh into africa earlier on because he's origins are from africa. do you agree or disagree with. relationship

with africa is clearly much more complicated because of his own personal heritage and specifically with kenya for example it's been noted that he's not visited on this trip and hasn't visited it but that's because of complications that are going on in political people there is going on in kenya. wanted. and that's the duplicity of american foreign policy that's why it's not going to get there because the view is that one two or four claims if you know actually if you justify dining with people who others view as a war criminal. clearly want to e-mail the counter for the same thing well no i think. what clarence i mean that is that they wanted to say it's not just here in the country it's judging the political situation in kenya and saying you don't pass you don't pass our standards agree or disagree i know that one i think this is

a this is a total political decision on the part of the administration that doesn't want to photograph with someone who may be going to prison signing someone who's under indictment so i think that's the same way you got me or i don't want to very little going to their kin us to come here and visit all but i then and she hears when he's keeping guantanamo bay open you cannot you cannot divorce politics from economics like you know. politics from religion it's not possible. but i don't want. to hear that you think this is a godly plan for us clearly you want. to come on gentlemen let me. let clarence finish his book he was the very first thing the very first thing that obama did when he came into office was the sign it president and executive order to close guantanamo the next thing that happened was that congress passed legislation that would allow him to do it it hasn't been closed because of me is that you are.

rich richard if i go to you look i think what you did and i don't i'm talking about one of our big i want to talk about africa i want to talk about africa richard what kind of legacy does obama obama want to leave and in africa in your opinion he still got four more years. three yes he's he's still going to few more years to go to carve out a legacy but you know maybe maybe we shouldn't think of it as you know africa is a place where presidents go and carve out legacies i think hopefully we're beyond that that stage in a more mature era of grown up relationships between the united states and africa i think what you'll be wanting to see what president obama will want to gain from this trip is to really sort of change the narrative on africa as much home here in the united states as in africa itself and that message that he wants to put through

the u.s. businesses here in the united states he's been very leery of investing in africa they've seen they tend to do well on the risks rather than the older students and i think he's trying to challenge that narrative and if at the end of this trip it can spark a little bit more interest from u.s. business and that might be turn out to be a very important economic legacy for mr clarence what do you think about legacy and obama and africa. and sort of what actually is that i. i tell you it's not what they claim it's for actually got a plan such as it will go to hitler go ahead sure. ok what i what i would add to what which is stated is that i think it's also important for people in the us to view africa very differently and so hopefully that will also change there are lots of important non-government organisations in the us from africa care to trans africa constituency for africa who are doing

a great deal of work on the ground and africa with africans in helping to push for future bass prospers that's inclusive that's democratic i think that narrative is not well known in the united states and hopefully this trip will at least turn the attention to the broader engagement with africa that's happening not just with the u.s. government but with people in the country in the u.s. as well well that sounds like a message of hope gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks today to my guests in washington and in johannesburg and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember cross talk to. me. as.

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