our guest karl denninger of market hyphen checker dot org if you'd like to get in touch tweet us at kaiser report and so next time i got assigned by all. i'm not used to the tundra to freedom i am my dear. in second grade i ran away from the boarding school with to my friends we ran to the tundra. the tundra is just miskito the crack and i don't know how people can live there to get in there no t.v.'s in the tenth how can i send my child to boarding school i won't be able to sleep at night after that. they enter

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hello and welcome to worlds apart this is our town program and if you watched any of our previous shows you would know that this is not a conventional interview and they probably already are about to present to you today is a good opportunity to explain why the traditional q. and a format is no longer serving public discourse which has the side about the need to promote a better understanding of islam in the last. standing to share the tolerance exists within muslims themselves well to discuss that i'm now joined by a militant exxon a little secretary-general of the organization of islamic call peroration misters

on the little welcome to moscow as far as i understand the concept of the people of islam the kony community of islam is central to qur'an but when you look at what is happening across the middle muslims killing muslims more than followers of any other religion. you know it's really difficult to understand what is actually man by by the and whether there is indeed unity among muslims is there anything more to this concept than just a religious matter for a mommy is belonging to the same community this is a feeling that every muslim. experience when you hear the call to prayer you feel that you will belong to the same but politically today what we are going through is a special case that this extremists this violent groups there are groups who are using islam. uncertain them petitions of wrong

interpretations of islam by misquoting the koran and other religious doctrines for their political agendas this one i received we say that if you have developed socially economy clearly well developed society when you have a democratic rule when you have access to political activities programs powers parties or associations but this is really a national fortunately we don't believe in the ideal world that you just described where you live in the world as it is and if we are talking about the again the community of muslims one of would presume that they're united by some shared values and when you look at different strains of islam if you compare for example. who believe in theory ideology of declaring somebody infidel and as a just a case of

a killing and somebody like madonna roomier who believe that you need to embrace people irrespective of their allegiance these people may have read one book they may believe in the same region story but fundamentally they're very different so what's the point of putting them all on did they are off or under the umbrella of law and though they are not under the umbrella woman but do you see what is taking place here what you have described is a good description but let me describe also a panel emission that the image of iran for instance or other radical groups in europe who are fighting their political agenda it happened in custody and put sense in the so what is happening here it is not unique to the muslim world i'm not i'm not trying to even argue that islam has some predisposition to violence this is not my argument i would like to get your opinion on the. whether or not you think that

islam is unified that islam is one and this is the opinion that many muslims hold on what is the difference between saying slum one islam as the legion is one the religion the main tenets of islam are the same have you been in syberia or have been. called the but. just itself is very logical because if you have a political different. social manifestation of islam the muslims in java are not practicing the same way the muslims in. practice but the we live in the same god in this in prophet in this holy book their prayer their fasting the privilege is the same but this social and cultural manifestations are extremely important and i would like to give you one example for the country of kyrgyzstan this is a small nation in central asia and they converted to islam around three hundred

years ago they are in the magic people so i think more than three hundred years well we can check history that's what i feel is they told me but. what's more important is that diversion of islamists very liberal very guilty terror and with regards to rights afforded to man and women and then now experiencing a sort of islamic revival there are thousands of mosques being built around the country but the problem is that most of those mosques are sponsored by saudi arabia and saudi arabia in addition to the money for the mosques sons preachers and sons literature and tries to promote its own very radical brand of islam that is totally foreign for the country of kyrgyzstan and what you have is the battle between the indigenous and foreign islam and these two versions of wisdom a very very different. well i think what i was trying to mainly explain is that social manifestation of islam is different from one country to other you spoke

about his stand in the mud to people but also if you're next you look next door to his book stand where you have more agree and society says has to settle society you will not find a big difference between the kind of his version of the spec version and in kazakhstan you have also in the mud the people that said to people so central asian understanding is quite different because it has it's all references all through the centuries this what i'm saying to the say thing it is now a time i may be through your going ization create a legal framework for islamic countries to be able to protect that version of islam that indigenous traditional islam from. it being pushed out by more radical versions of islam because obviously i don't know whether you would agree with me on all but i think saudi version of islam is not that attractive i mean

it's not about its spiritual value but they have the money and they love that one model so i would love not like to speak about very specific cases but i would like to speak about general features let me tell you that we have or i see in two thousand and five december in. an extraordinary summit we have. agreed the whole muslim or all my agreed through fifty seven heads of states agreed on. on considering eight megs hips which is force from the mess obss and two she mess ups and other two predominant messages in the whole world eight of them equal so legally speaking we have a unanimity on the equal in this the behavior of certain schools of thought which. might be. present in one school of thought cannot be considered as superior

to the us this is was what we do secondly in the organization there is an academy of jurisprudence for me who have fifty seven countries with representing different traditions and schools of thought are members to discuss these issues within your organization you have a very significant income gap wealth gap you have very rich countries you have very poor countries and i think i mean i think this is not unique for oil seeds the need is the same for united nations with empathy it's the same for the other organizations and i think that's true but since we are talking about islam and the rights. of people to know that all version of islam when you have an extremely rich country and an extremely poor country. that poor country to defend its traditions to defend i think this has nothing to do with the organization this is for bilateral we in the organization we are supporting and advocating through more to

the values of moderation and i think the but did you in your program actually write as you did ten years raise ten year program of action which was adopted in two thousand and five six so the summit through promotes modernization and moderation. the problem in or say in some of our societies that they lack. modern society they are not the earth well developed motor societies if you have the modern nice society you would have less that because you would hazard less fanaticism and you will have less violence because radical is fine it's a says an ignorance leads people to misuse to be misused by other people i think it could be a argue that there are certain countries against saudi arabia would be one that of promoting certain brands of islam that ultimately lead to that i can say that

there is a country who split because i don't think that. is a monopoly of any country all countries they have their own understanding and i wouldn't accept the idea that the kingdom of saudi arabia is propose getting certain understand and i understand your answer because obviously your going to zation is headquarter them dead there but the big all this is my conviction i don't see any policy guidelines of the saudis to propose to promote any understanding i think the i have been experience nine years of second didn't have one day there interfering in our first particular from this point of view this is i don't actually know any i think race and islamic longers this is your own ideas about a number of really am there are also some experts who would. at the moment there is a whole battle being waged for the heart and soul of islam and how islam is defined not only within the muslim community but outside those very different and

conflicting interpretations of islam are actually engaged in that battle and my question to you is where do you standard that battle because here we just that there are some more egalitarian versions of islam some are more radical but there they are in a competition of each other to define what is perceived as islam around a wall while we we should really again i would like to clearly say that we have to understand. the relation between the political sphere and the religious fear as the political sphere interferes and tries to diminish it and dictate on the reasons for we are all in trouble and i don't see this. call for sixteen ism is justified and we had a very very successful experience in two thousand and six when we succeeded in

bringing leaders of sunni and she in iraq to a one table under the umbrella of boise and then this sign this document or any into the no lie low have me to finish please two to sign this into two thousand and six and it worked and that was the beginning of success of reconciliation between sunnis and she's in iraq it work until recently and there still is the the the digits leaders of sudanese and religious leaders of she's in iraq they are good friends and they had no problems the problem is still blood their political leadership is it fair to put all the blame on the political leaders who also consider themselves muslims and. exonerate ideology of religious ideology totally you don't need to persuade me that the

islamization religion of peace but i think when we see people being killed in syria with chants it's difficult to really believe that you know religion has nothing to do with it but the killing that are going on both in syria an iraqi that you mention well i think when you look back to how the fighting in c a started until recently there were different. you see the mosaic the different mosaic of syria part of this morsi diverse movie is with the opposition and fighting against the government now when you have a radical. groups when they come and fight you cannot colors the whole society or the whole fight between the opposition and the government why did this only black out of this mall vocal. group

and. understanding they're all going to petition misguiding the everybody to discuss that it's news to me. but we will continue this heated conversation right after the break. good.

morning news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images and seeing from the streets of canada. operations are old today.

welcome back to worlds apart pissing son a little is a man who dedicated sees entire career to preaching tolerance and reconciliation and by this time his space with my questions was already wearing his the head of the world's second largest international organization the first democratically elected had his ideal freedom of the past and of all pressing for answers and no freedom to follow up i think you're pushing too much too much no you are.

more than me you're imposing your porn and i guess the point minute times and you're coming back to the simpler now but i have a whole new chinese and then the b.b.c. and the other big ones of the turkish ones this first time a fun one to look at the imposing his old whole point well you may dislike it but i try to give you willing to say that you are pushing too much to rely on a lot of that could limit debate. that you are pushing your point in the public discourse i studied this issue and i try to put my heart into that and there are many people who believe some of the you are right what's in your heart that i should that but don't put words in my mouth no i have not changed your diet and i try still much but also understand me because i mean freedom of speech presupposes some disagreement and try to species of course freedom of speech but don't put words on my mouth and push me to accept two points no i'm not

a monster to you i have answered your lot with this what's the next question yes no no i have to know. while i would like to ask you about the syria the conflict in syria the position of your organization. but don't argue with me with them ask me questions and i answer you if you are given a challenge to to challenge and to lie to prove that you're right i'm wrong this is not within view i don't know where and why and who are you only know this what you're doing i'm sorry would you come and. interview mr blank come on until america's doing this and blah blah and you cannot say that. why you cannot say we have a public debate in the world i mean this is not a bus this is not the way to prove to push public debate and we are more we are only making interview we are not making into regulation now it's not supposed to be interesting but i would love to have a conversation and it's a call visitation has

a limit and has a ticket we should observations let's go and if you don't like the way i interview or we just stop right there mr exxon a little just before i began to break you were talking about syria being in the sake of different religions and different strains of islam and i think it was a very rare example of peaceful coexistence of all those various religions in the world but what we are now seeing in syria is essentially be the crash of that idea off peaceful coexistence do you think it could be recreated and if you have any idea how well first of all let me tell you that i feel very set for what's happening because this society historically speaking was one of the most stable societies of the peaceful coexistence between the different races different cultures and different religion religious affiliations. and what's

happening in syria today doesn't show that this peaceful coexistence feel that it shows that the the conflict there. is a conflict of. of political wrangling between people supporting the government opposition fighting for certain political demands and this demands. are legitimate that they want more freedom they want more more and they want have a share in power they want to have a say in the future of their country the. position of boise from day one that we are against military intervention

we are supportive of the unity to toward integrity so of realty and independence of city but the problem is of course is that they swore is being. forth and aided and is now spilling over to many of your organization's members and i think publicly speaking in international diplomacy we have been hearing this calls for political dialogue and reconciliation among various parties in the international community but the problem is of course is that these various parties russia that you mentioned the united states gulf countries they all support different sides so we cannot really like two and a half years later we can't really move beyond this diplomatic sheet chad and the expression of good intentions people are still being killed in syria and i think one of the reasons and please let me know if you disagree with me but i think one of the reasons is that from the very beginning this conflict was very much

misrepresented both. around a wall to around the western world but also in the islamic world because many of the islamic leaders in many of the islamic countries very early in the uprising turned their backs to official damascus and to some extent to syrian people as well because if you look at any polls in syria the majority of syrians soon half years later after all those massacres they still support bashar al assad well i don't know how far these polls are. fair and. the freely conducted but certainly the mismatch or over the world about this and we don't want this to turn to be a long war like in somalia we don't want this to be a new cold war between. two powers in the world we don't want be to return to civilian or this why we support of all international efforts for solving this

is the the problem and we think that solving the problem will not be by continuing the fighting. no almost one. a hundred thousand people killed you have a government which uses. a little planes aircrafts heavy artillery to show that its own people well the shell rebels rebel positions who are able to. see really as you see the civilians and then we have the opposition which some of part of the positions who are making brutality you know we can see on both sides we have to see the two coins i think we will be mistaking you for we take sides we have to see the two sides of the coin the brutality going on. and we have to see that many innocent people the hundreds of thousands of people millions of people displaced they were

not dispersed by one party but i think when we are talking about the displaced people in syria around one point five million flood across the border to turkey and jordan but four point five million are internally displaced displaced within the country so if you would take that as a crude proxy of the political preferences then that tells you something but i guess the bigger question is of course. is rather a not more could have been done on the level of your own organization because you've been asked during the press conference about the suspension of the damascus or rather syrian membership in the organization and that looks like a political position taking a political position in support of the rebels maybe you have not intended it this way but this is how it was perceived but i think the suspension of of of the. the government of syria or the

regime's membership in noisy was taken by a majority of votes in doing the summit. and the overwhelming majority because of the the way the government to dealt with the people who are asking for freedom for democracy for change for reform had this is not been the case i think it would have not to consider that but this is not the issue of the problem is not that the the problem isee is not that their membership is suspended and though i see the problem there that it is a big fighting and this should be a consideration we should stop the fighting this is where we should all co put it i would like to go to the point of reconciliation but before i go there you mentioned that the the decision was taken by the majority of this good that you are arguing here you say i am not our guy think i covered this point you can please move to other point. but if you go beyond this when you go beyond the question you know how

these other wasn't because of anything other than the question you may have learned you. knew. you were going to say sion of islam a call to ration is the world's second largest international body as members are now engaged in acts of warfare and the main problem of this war is that all sides would prefer to kill arms rather than discuss their differences in an open not always pleasant dialogue so much for tolerance and three conciliation. mistakes on a loop told us we couldn't air this program but one of the talents of press freedom is that the greenman to an interview is given before it's recorded towards otherwise no unpleasant interviews with advice see the light of day that's all we have time for today but please join us again same place same time here in the wilds of our.

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bolivia joins the ranks of all the south american nations offering edward snowden asylum while venezuela says it's a way to until monday to know whether the n.s.a. whistleblower will agree to take up their awful refuge on its territory. divided egypt pardons and backers of also president morsi valborg wible release says tension continues to rise and need to protect from trees political deadlock. and the twenty third tina world university games a gets offered to a restart in russia city of caravan with a true to speak to. the city welcome sounds of athletes to the games lympics little brother. that's all from me for now my colleague you see captain awful b.t.n. a little on then.