see the story. and realize. the big picture.

hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle with the military getting control after a coup what is the future hold for egypt is this country's experiment with democracy a thing of the past what signal does this send to islamic parties in the region and will washington's reputation among egyptians ever be redeemed. to cross-talk the chaos in egypt i'm joined by cynthia schneider in washington she is a professor at georgetown university and a senior nonresident fellow with the brookings institution we also have jeffrey

ingersoll in new york he is a defense reporter with business insider and in london we cross to say to lisa he's a political analyst and writer all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much appreciate it cynthia franco to you first in washington is egypt in a process of self-destruction after this coup. no not at all but i can understand why you would say that i find coverage of the events which by the way i would call the continuing revolution rather than a coup baffling to me i find so many people here who have actually never even heard of the grass roots use lead movement from a road which is the reason that millions and millions and millions of people egyptians came out into the streets last sunday to protest the

rule of mohamed morsi would you agree this was a king would you agree to cool military coup no i would not agree and i will not agree or i would put it this way if this coup. was the two thousand and eleven revolution because it's exactly the same as what happened in two thousand and eleven ok so you didn't. go ahead. it's completely and utterly different because mubarak did not come through elections he was a dictator he was a tyrant he imposed himself he was heavy backed up by the army in fact the army to the hilt it is the army who are running the show they are calling the shots they are very supported by the americans they call the aid to egypt is in fact not to you it is simply money to the military will of running the show who are have massive power who have been in center of the power mubarak was not talked to you

was a dictator who was in democratically elected he wasn't and he came from the army he belongs to the army through and through and he imposed himself on the people while we look to see he was democratically elected as the be elected in egypt and he had a mandate to all four years though. army moved against him they declared that cool hiding behind that people so we can say in every sense of the world what happened was clearly updated. on the high did behind the masses who were clamoring and demanding and then to see israel ok been through demands i do mean again you know if you're going to cry i got mean was going to mean the t.v. could be going to jeffrey in new york where do you stand on this and there's a little bit of both here ok i can understand what cynthia is trying to say but if you look at the timeline you know you had the protesters come out by the millions

and they were voicing some very legitimate concerns and the army backed them up and they gave morsi some time and morsi came out and tried to pull an obama with all this hope and change stuff and he didn't really say anything of substance in the army took him out was that a coup yeah that's a textbook definition of a coup but was it was it backed by some popular consent it was backed by some popular consent now if you look in the past that how morsi was governing i mean he was a little bit more concerned with telling women what they can wear than with rebuilding egypt you know if you're going to foist sharia law onto a bunch of secular people you better expect him to take to the streets so that being said i think it's a little bit of a gray area here i don't think you can call it you know it's easy to want to call it a revolution it's easy to want to call it a coup it does fit the textbook definition of a coup but at the same time secy isn't sitting here trying to to be the new dictator he's not trying to be the new mubarak whatever you have to say well we don't know yet you know i have no idea you know that is that yes go ahead jump in.

well what i was going to say is jeffrey i think you're right about first of all in egypt nothing is ever textbook and what will happen i think what's critical now is what will happen next and it could well it look if from what happened yesterday obviously these terrible massacres of muslim brotherhood people trying to reinstate morsi and then the reinstatement of the emergency the dreaded emergency law this does not look well i hear from my friends involved with the revolution and tom are rude to they feel confident that they feel they are in charge that does not appear to be the case now i think what happens in the next few weeks is absolutely critical there has to be and it could well evolve into a military coup military dictatorship but i do think that the same millions of

people who came out against the authoritarian dictatorial president morsi who simply took all the power for himself without any accountability those same people will respond in the same way if the military does that as well they know how to protest what remains to be seen and i feel optimistic about this but it remains to be seen if the opposition which is very widespread this is not just you know university people very widespread throughout egyptian society if the opposition can coalesce organize and pressure the military to ensure a democratic transition and that remains to be ok and also what remains of the scene is let me go to london. hold on hold on a minute let's just first of all look at the facts on the ground what city which who is general since you is the defense minister did when he first declared giving

morsi only forty eight hours to sort out a huge mess which was absolutely impossible here they knew full well that he was going to spectacularly failed because he's been trying to get the lawyer and tried . to defend morsi don't get me wrong he has been trying to shift egypt to words more radical extremist islamist ideology and the muslim brotherhood has not been faithful to their people because it has shifted its rhetoric and its actions from a more direct. when it was out of power to ahmad more radical extremist harvey said if they were trying to appease the one harveys and the seller fees to pluck eight increasing hostility from two words mosi they followed that katter has had a major change of heart after the i mean it was forced out of power and after his

architect on the maasdam mind of supporting the muslim what are those two words the prime minister and foreign minister was forced out took power so there was a dramatic shift by the muslim brotherhood to words is right to kill islam that's where he has failed that's where he has antagonized the people but still the army issued a forty eight hour ultimatum which was that wasn't the case when they actually start when they actually sided with their people are against mubarak they gave them ample time to win over their people but they were hell bent on talking mercy and they took the opportunity by widespread support by their people but we mustn't forget the muslim brotherhood also have people on the ground and they feel that they have been directed by their own democratic people or and by the united states which have been advocating and pushing for and promising that it's going to. side with that people they have backed up the army it is a very good point gyptian on you which has been the safety net what i made

a call to move against a democratically elected leader without the full hold i did support all of the americans well know that you know was it not your opinion and i don't for you what is the future of democracy now. oh all that said that's a tough question you want me to answer and in a soundbite the future of democracy is that when you get democratically elected you need to govern democratically have the picture and you know you can make your arguments about democratic american presidents or or you know any other country that democratically elected their president so i know that their partisan with what he wants to for sure time and election quite there is no to this for the now first time you get was it for if you have a message or the first start and you can't you can't step it you can step in and be extremist right away i mean i mean hey look the americas let him run for principles of procedure it took us this long to subvert the constitution and be super for

design years now if you give this guy in a matter of eighteen months he's rewritten the constitution seized power and trying to foist islamic law on the people and then when the army gave him a chance they only gave him a chance that he would get i was enchanted and so many things he did gave me the people gave me and single they came and i know it will never they say if you don't know what he was going to do with you don't do what he did for justice and because i don't believe. they wanted him to take that with his of his it's not within the our action they removed him go ahead cynthia jump in. democracy is much more than elections a good point and this in my view has been a fatal mistake that the united states has made and its policies in many places democracy requires much more than simply voting. and yes the people voted in president morsi and then he proceeded to govern in a mud giora terry n. way which really is an authoritarian way he did nothing to protect minorities quite

the opposite he fanned the flames of sectarianism he took absolute power for himself and he had no accountability whatsoever there were no other mechanisms left to protest he removed of all they could have there was no other. tolling our history we have given to our convention beyond democratically elected and until you're blue in the face of that if you're going to turn democratically headed that's what matters yes the ones that democratic way of dealing with it and even though that morsi was adopting and shifting to mordor i think the extremists wahhabi islam but there was another can is him to do it to within democratic procedure and that is through an elected parliament he should have been pressured and you was moving to was that direction off a new parliamentary election and through the parliament people who could help vote

them out rather than to use the army which was in the way each ng to talk to him and to move him out of the picture because if you look at getting this eight month statement by city he actually told him if there is no compromise how much doubt between the two parties within forty eight hours then we hope i want to own mob oh i don't drug mob which by the way that road map is exactly i called been called we all think demands made by you not to leave that to my roots that is another huge force which is the national salvation front both of those and by the way. but now as you know that. i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on each of state. the big

. please. i would rather ask questions for people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on

our t.v. question more. will . be the speech. she gave. her. and i. wish. you all the things luck misleader. just steal the money and i. know my mind i'm

a fairly. safe. if you believe we. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the political turmoil in egypt. if you simply want to go back to you and want to know what is the future of the muslim brotherhood now in egypt are they going to be allowed to run in the elections well i think there is a. huge demand now and really the most important thing and i don't know if the military will do this i don't know if they're up to it there needs to be

a national reconciliation between the different parties and yes the muslim brotherhood should be and deserves to be included in the political process but by the way the last opinion poll that i'm aware of by the zajac be group play support for president morsi of twenty eight percent so it's not that there's huge massive support but they are a factor in egyptian society and they should be included the question is what will their leadership decide will they decide to remain outside and attempt to reinstate morsi by force which you know facing the egyptian army is a losing proposition and will only divide the country i hope that they will really enter the political process as they deserve to as do other groups as do for example coptic christians and other groups in egypt and that there can be some kind of

national reconciliation which is essential if you look at morsi speeches his actions he really was fostering division in egyptians us. one of the biggest debates is around identity. referred to this egyptians do are not one harvey's they rejected the identity that the muslim brotherhood attempted to foist on them they have people perceive the muslim brotherhood is trying to take away the egyptian identity egypt is the center of the arab world the center of culture creativity innovation in the arab world the muslim brotherhood tried to take all that away the question is will they change from being entirely for the muslim brotherhood and be also for egypt if they don't do that i don't know how they're going to succeed in egypt want to go to london i mean

why would a spit in another election i mean they change the rules in the middle of the game why would they want to participate. because there is you know which is they feel now that they all have been. all ruling egypt you've got the actions of the army which gets about should i can the to the people peaceful protesters of basically playing into the hands of the muslim brotherhood it's true that the support for the muslim brotherhood emphatic an unequivocal backing they hot when they were elected had stumbled tod's waned away because people in egypt all moderates the north top people with the shifts they've seen in the muslim brotherhood that is moving from the moderate teachings of islam to what have you stephy in order to please but there is a glaring contradiction that while the americans are trying to say got the. muslim brotherhood has shifted towards more extreme islam the usa happens to be the greatest and this storm just on the close to the most dictatorial bustin of

dictatorship which is you know which is a well how do you set out feet. bucked up by a one hundred feet reaches establishments. which issues fact was that give relief just let it get. renewed just backing down with a just incentive to suicide bomb was all over that we didn't that is in iraq and also in syria they have been but i don't know why then why didn't they reckon i spent let's think time advocating democracy they backed up that's what we did to invade batarang i guess that will of the battering the people would who have been counting want democracy human rights and political reform so they can't have it both ways they can say they are democrats and at the same time not most. likely i want to jeffrey toobin jeffrey in new york jump in are you in between the two go ahead yeah you know i think i think i saw a design or something here and i think it's that the i think political islam is

encouraged growing what democracy they totally deal of themselves they had an opportunity they had a chance egypt is the only place to do it so you can have a democratically elected. representative of a. political islamic organization it's just not going to work and i wouldn't be surprised speaking of geo political blowback you know i i know that he was causing more morsi was cozying up to iran and that he sort of led talks with the gaza and israel thing you know and those are those are just superficial you know you we might see. but what we will see what the blowback will be is years down the road is that it is perfectly right here in bahrain the saudis are you going to start to see some of these more islamic governments have difficulty with their people especially people that want to have you know free will choice stuff like that so so yeah these these cascading effects they're going to go

down and basically the only thing that the muslim brotherhood can do now is rebranding they can you got to get rid of the sound from the language in the in the constitution. all of these actions we have been going to get i just read the legal battle in there and there is still sure real law in there and you know the secularists are not going to take that. as here in the u.s. who are who show for the evangelicals that that's what the muslim brotherhood is going to have to do what they're going to completely rebrand if they want to i think it's vital to mention the conservative. political body and so much religious political body i mean a massive speech in a rally which is acting debut g.v. by all sorts of radicals and fanatics what hobbies and set of fees he clearly back them up and back the calls for what he calls jihad to go to syria to go to iraq to blow themselves up he had a major falling out with iran he was he he actually said that his relations

immediately through their demands of all the set up piece and one hundred views with syria and he shifted its position dramatically behind that set of peace and what hobbies like jeb who are hot being financed who have been armed and backed up according to their unit in new york times that all the funding all that logistics came from. and also qatar who are storing chests and closes off the united states we can see that clear crissy and that and to say you've got to march you were actually trying to move closer to iran it's totally untrue he was trying to appease that was trying to crack eight but that whole state did him particularly after he became fully aware that now the leadership that i know of broad arab muslim already has now foray into that circle has evolved as much to see him or is going to. like questions and i want to get a sense here all i want is what i thought it was. i would like if we could to

redirect back to to egypt which i think is has less to do with all. these global adventures then is implied by this program the people of egypt rose because morsi was ruling as an authoritarian ruler and doing a phenomenally incompetent job of running the country the economy is in desperate shape that the each of egyptians are like anyone just like anyone else it's the economy stupid but. i want to medical is the army have the saloon and. the role of the united states i think and the united states has managed to lose on all sides in egypt it is perceived as backing the muslim brotherhood and president obama and our ambassador there sadly have been

much too silent as morsi took more and more authoritarian powers you cannot say you stand for democracy and freedom and then stand by what violated stands in the n.t. how does it is it of the united states to tell a country about its democracy exactly. you know and that's that's a dicey situation again. you're right what business is is it of the united states while we give them a lot of money that sort of makes it a little bit our business ok but in the same breath i think that they're trying to they're trying to backpedal a little bit they're trying not to say exactly which orse to pick and you know i got to give at least give the obama administration some credit in terms of being a little patient about what they're going to say and what they're not going to say in the same breath you know i think that they should just let it play out i think the same thing with syria i don't know why that is just don't let it play out the getting involved too heavily has never worked out for our advantage so why do it

now in terms of of of morsi it was obvious that he wasn't yes he was democratically elected but he wasn't ruling as a as a he was. in governing even me using the word ruling is indicative of how he governed you need to govern as a person for the people all the people and all that that was his main mistake a so we are that's that's the future of political islam is he going to leave it so you take it or leave it there i learned last year to design a gun here in london go ahead last time go ahead i do believe that it is not the economy the economy has been doing badly and that mubarak the army when they took over by the they hired them eighteen months also a chance to do something about it they actually spectacularly failed it has been used an excuse that it's not that say to months he has done anything about it but let's not forget that the army has its own interest in the economy they have been invested heavily in the economy i mean to get him out of the boat for the economy

and i am trying to ease him on doing it but i mean it was the americans who wear that pay mosque all the egyptian army using it as a safety net and as an insurance policy i need to inconceivable that this army would have moved and could we take a fascinating discussion i want to thank you again here all thanks to my guests in washington new york and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. i

think. if. they all told me my language well but i will only react to situations i haven't read the reports so i'm likely to put the no i will leave them to the state department to comment on your letter play like a monkey say it's six am a car is on the docket. they go no more weasel words. when you have a direct question be prepared for a change when you run should be ready for a. pretty tough comps ph little down to freedom to cost.

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