hello and welcome across town for all things considered i'm peter alone with the military again in control after a coup what does the future hold for egypt is this country's experiment with

democracy a thing of the past what signal does this send to islamic parties in the region and will washington's reputation among egyptians ever be redeemed. to cross-talk the chaos in egypt i'm joined by cynthia schneider in washington she is a professor at georgetown university and a senior nonresident fellow with the brookings institution we also have jeffrey ingersoll in new york he is a defense reporter with business insider and in london we cross to say to lisa he's a political analyst and writer all right. that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much appreciate it. to you first in washington is egypt in a process of self-destruction after this. no not at all but i can understand why you would say that i find the coverage of the events

which by the way i would call the continuing revolution rather than a coup baffling to me i find so many people here who have actually never even heard of the grass roots use lead movement from a road which is the reason that millions and millions and millions of people egyptians came out onto the streets last sunday to protest the rule of mohamed morsi would you agree. would you agree to a coup military coup no i would not agree and i would not agree or i would put it this way if this is who. was the two thousand and eleven revolution because it's exactly the same as what happened in two thousand and eleven ok so you didn't. go ahead. it's completely

different because mubarak did not come through elections he was a dictator he was a tyrant he imposed himself and he was happy to be backed up by the army in fact the army backed him up to the hilt it is the army who are running the show they are calling the shots they are heavy supported by the americans they call it to aid to egypt is say in fact not to egypt eighty is simply money too that made it through running the show who are have massive power to have been in center of the power mubarak was not talk while he was a dictator who was in democratic could be elected he wasn't me and he came from the army he belongs to the army through and through and he imposed himself on that people while if we look at he was democratically elected as the be elected in egypt and he had the mandate to all four years the army moved against him they declared that cool hiding behind the people so we can say in every sense of the world what happened was clearly an updated more defiant. way the army

high did to be behind the masses who were clamoring and demanding and then to more seized. through demands i do mean again you know if you're going across got going to be going to jeffrey new york where do you stand on this and there's a little bit of both here ok i can understand what cynthia is trying to say but if you look at the timeline you know you have the protesters come out by the millions and they were voicing some very legitimate concerns and the army backed them up and they gave morsi some time and morsi came out and tried to pull an obama with all this hope and change stuff and he didn't really say anything of substance in the army took him out was that a coup yeah that's a textbook definition of a coup but was it was it backed by some popular consent it was backed by some popular consent now if you look in the past that how morsi was governing i mean he was a little bit more concerned with telling women. what they can wear than with rebuilding egypt you know if you're going to foist sharia law onto

a bunch of secular people you better expect him to take to the streets so that being said i think it's a little bit of a gray area here i don't think you can call it you know it's easy to want to call it a revolution it's easy to want to call it a coup it does fit the textbook definition of a coup but at the same time secy isn't sitting here trying to to be the new dictator he's not trying to be the new mubarak whatever you have to say well we don't know yet you know i have no idea you know that he's met yet with cynthia go ahead jump in. well what i was going to say is jeffrey i think you're right about first of all egypt nothing is ever textbook and what will happen i think what's critical now is what will happen next and it could well it look if from what happened yesterday obviously these terrible massacres of muslim brotherhood people trying to reinstate morsi and then the reinstatement of the

emergency the dreaded emergency law this does not look well i hear from my friends involved with the revolution and tom are rude to they feel confident that they feel they are in charge that does not appear to be the case now i think what happens in the next few weeks is absolutely critical there has to be and it could well evolve into a military coup military dictatorship but i do think that the same millions of people who came out against the authoritarian dictatorial president morsi who simply took all the power for himself without any accountability those same people will respond in the same way if the military does that as well they know how to protest what remains to be seen and i feel optimistic about this but it remains to be seen if the opposition which is very widespread this is not just you know university people

very widespread throughout egyptian society if the opposition can coalesce organize and pressure the military to ensure a democratic transition and that remains to be ok and also what remains of the team is going to go to london. hold on hold on a minute let's just first of all look at the facts on the ground what city which who is general since you is the defense minister did when he first declared giving morsi only forty eight hours to sort out a huge mess which was absolutely impossible and they knew full well that he was going to spectacularly failed because he's been trying to do have the last year and tried. to defend morsi don't get me wrong he has been trying to shift egypt to words more radical extremist islamist ideology and the muslim brotherhood has not been faithful to their people because it has shifted its rhetoric and its

actions from a more dreadful. when it was out of power to model more radical extremist harvey said that if they were trying to appease the one harvey's and the seller fees to put out kate increasing hostility from two words mostly and they followed that have to has had a major change of heart after the i mean it was forced out of power and after his architect of the mosque the mind of supporting the muslim what are those two words the prime minister and foreign minister was forced out took power so there was a dramatic shift by the muslim brotherhood to words that rugby kill is down that's where he has failed that's where he has antagonized the people but still the army issued a forty eight hour ultimatum which was that wasn't the case when they actually start when they actually sided with their people are against mubarak they gave them ample time to win over their people but they were hell bent on talking mercy and

they took the opportunity by widespread support by their people but we mustn't figure the muslim brotherhood also have people on the ground and they feel that they have been directed by their own democratic people or and by the united states which have been advocating and pushing for and promising that it's going to. with that people they have backed up the army it is a very good point gyptian on you which has been the safety net for i made it tough to move against a democratically elected leader without the full hold i did support all of the all of the americans but i know that you know was it not you've been here and i have for you what is the future of democracy now. oh all that said that's a tough question you want me to answer and in a soundbite the future of democracy is that when you get democratically elected you need to govern democratically have the picture and you know you can make your arguments about democratic american presidents or or you know any other country

that democratically elected their president so i know that they're partisan with what he wants to push your time and election quite there's no to this for now first time you get was it for if you have a message or the first start and you can't you can't step in you can step in and be extremist right away i mean i mean hey look the americans looking around for. this long to subvert the constitution to be super for design year now if you give this guy in a matter of eighteen months he's rewritten the constitution seized power and trying to foist islamic law on the people and then when the army gave him a chance they only gave him a chance that he would get i was enchanted and so many things he did gave me the people gave me take a moment until it was over they say he did you don't know what you want to do with this is you don't do what he did for joining us and he says i don't believe in the job and so they wanted him to take that with in his of his it's not was you know our action they removed him go ahead cynthia jump in you know democracy is much

more than elections a good point and this in my view has been a fatal mistake that the united states has made and its policies in many places democracy requires much more than simply voting. and yes the people voted in president morsi and then he proceeded to govern in a mud giora terry n. way which really is an authoritarian way he did nothing to protect minorities quite the opposite he fanned the flames of sectarianism he took absolute power for himself and he had no accountability whatsoever there were no other mechanisms left to protest he removed of all they could have there was no other. telling our history we haven't even talked about him being damaged radically away and until you're blue in the faith it's going to turn democratically headed that's what

matters yes the ones that democratic way of dealing with it and even though that morsi was adopting and shifting to mordor i think the extremists wahhabi islam but that was another american is him to do it to within democratic procedure and that is through an elected parliament he should have been pressured and you was moving to was the direction off a new parliamentary election through the parliament people who could help vote them out rather than to use the army which was in the way each ng to talk to him and to move him out of the picture because if you look at getting this eight month statement by city he actually told him if there is no compromise how many dogs between the two of us within forty eight hours then we hope i want to own mob i want to own drugs bob which by the way that the road map is exactly i call them cope we all think demands made by you not to leave that time i wrote fed is another

huge force which is the national salvation front both of those and by the way tomorrow do it now but now. and again i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on each of state. recently someone.

please. i would rather ask questions for people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.g.p. question more. please . please. explain. the speech. she gave.

her her. wish. you. know me better let. me see. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle mind

you we're discussing the political turmoil in egypt. ok since you've got to go back to you in washington what is the future of the muslim brotherhood now. you need chips were going to be allowed to run in the elections well i think there is a. huge demand now and really the most important thing and i don't know if the military will do this i don't know if they're up to it there needs to be a national reconciliation between the different parties and yes the muslim brotherhood should be and deserves to be included in the political process but by the way the last opinion poll that i'm aware of by the zajac be group play support for president morsi of twenty eight percent so it's not that there's huge massive support but they are a factor in egyptian society and they should be included the question is what will

their leadership decide will they decide to remain outside and attempt to reinstate morsi by force which you know facing the egyptian army is a losing proposition and will only divide the country i hope that they will really enter the political process as they deserve to as do other groups as do for example coptic christians and other groups in egypt and that there can be some kind of national reconciliation which is essential if you look at morsi speeches his actions he really was fostering division in egyptian society one of the biggest debates is around identity and so you've referred to this egyptians do are not one hobby they rejected the identity that the muslim brotherhood attempted to foist on them and the people perceive the muslim brotherhood as trying to take away the

egyptian identity egypt is the center of the arab world the center of culture creativity innovation in the arab world the muslim brotherhood tried to take all that away the question is will they change from being in. hireling for the muslim brotherhood and be also for egypt if they don't do that i don't know how they're going to six hundred in egypt i want to go to in london i mean why would the muslim brotherhood want to participate in another election i mean they changed the rules in the middle of the game why would they want to participate. because there is you know here which is they feel now that they are have been brought to give to mishear all of ruling egypt has been taken away from them and i do believe that the actions of the army which cannot be condoned that it's shooting right in the going to be that people peaceful protesters of basically playing into the hands of the muslim brotherhood it's true that the support for the muslim brotherhood emphatic and unequivocal backing they

have when they were elected has tumbled swayne away because people in egypt are moderates they're not happy with their shifts they've seen in the months and that is moving from the moderate teachings of islam to what have you steffi in order to please them but there is a glaring contradiction that while the americans are trying to say that the. muslim brotherhood has shifted towards more extreme islam the usa happens to be the great test and the staunchest and the closest ally to the most dictatorial and bastion of dictatorship which is the adage which is what harvey said of the region bucked up by a wahhabi said effie religious establishments which issues fact was that give religiously . religious backing and were they just incentive to suicide bombers all over there that is in iraq and also in syria they have been put i don't know why this was

already left over should i spend the same time advocating democracy they've backed up that's what we did to invade but rain against the will of the battering the of people would have been clamoring for democracy human rights and political reform. so they can't have it both ways they can say they are democrats and at the same time not most. likely i want to jeffrey toobin jeffrey in new york jump in are you in between the two go ahead yeah you know i think i think it is i have something here and i think it's that the i think political is is encouraged growing with democracy they totally did legitimize themselves they had an opportunity they had a chance egypt is the only place to do it so you can have a democratically elected. representative of a. political islamic organization it's just not going to work and i wouldn't be surprised geo political blowback you know i i know that he was cozying more morsi

was cozying up to iran and that he sort of led talks with the gaza and israel thing you know and those are those are just superficial you know you know we might see the way things ought to tell down when they go but what we will see what the blowback will be is years down the road is that it is perfectly right here in bahrain the saudis are you going to start to see some of these more islamic governments have difficulty with their people especially people that want to have you know free will choice stuff like that so so yeah these these cascading effects they're going to go down and basically the only thing that the muslim brotherhood can do now is rebranding they can you got to get rid of the sound from the language in the in the constitution that all of these actions we have been going to get i just read the legal battle going on there and there's still sharia law in there and that you know the secularists are not going to take that i don't think none of. us here in the u.s. who who show for the evangelicals that that's what the muslim brotherhood's going

to have to do it they're going to completely rebranded not want to i think it's vital to mention to our conservative. political body and so much religious political body i mean a massive. speech in a rally which is a view g.v. by all sorts of radicals and fanatics while harvey's fees he clearly bucked them up and bites the calls for what he calls jihad to go to syria to go to iraq to blow themselves up he had a major falling out with iran he was he he actually severed his relations immediately through the demands of all the set up piece on one hundred views with syria and he shifted its position dramatically behind the sellafield and while hobbies like job who have been financed who have been armed and backed up according to their unit the new york times that all the funding all the logistics came from.

and also qatar who are the storm just and closes off the united states we can see that clear. in there and to say you would actually be trying to move closer to iran is totally untrue he was trying to appease the so easy who was trying to block gate that whole city of him particularly after he became fully aware that now their leadership they're out of bread every muslim already has now forward to that. question and i want you out of here all i want is what i thought it was simply a lie i would like if we could to redirect back to to egypt which i think is has less to do with all these global adventures than is is implied by this program the people of egypt rose because morsi was ruling as an authoritarian ruler and doing a phenomenally incompetent job of running the country the economy is in desperate

shape that the each of egyptians are like anyone just like anyone else it's the economy stupid so they care about you telling my. there's a bit of asians and i want to medical is why does the army have the saloon and the hammer for the role of the united states i think and the united states has managed to lose on all sides in egypt it is perceived as backing the muslim brotherhood and president obama and our ambassador there sadly have been much too silent as morsi took more and more authoritarian powers you cannot say you stand for democracy and freedom and then stand by what violated stands in the n.t. how does it is that of the united states to tell a country about its democracy exactly. you know and that's that's a dicey situation again. you're right what business is is that of the united states

while we give them a lot of money the sort of makes it a little bit our business ok but in the same breath i think that they're trying to they're trying to backpedal a little bit they're trying not to say exactly which horse to pick and you know i got to give at least give the obama administration some credit in terms of being a little patient about what they're going to say and what they're not going to say in the same breath you know i think that they should just let it play out i think that the same thing with syria i don't know why that is just don't let it play out the getting involved too heavily has never worked out for our advantage so why do it now in terms of of of morsi it was obvious that he wasn't yes he was democratically elected but he wasn't ruling as a he wasn't governing even me using the word ruling is indicative of how he governed you need to govern as a person for the people all the people and other that was his main mistake and so we got to and that's the future of political islam is going to leave it so you take

it or leave it they're going to look you didn't. go to him let him go ahead last on good i do believe dr it is not the economy the economy has been doing bad. the when they left. probably by the way higher than eighteen months old so chance to do something about it they actually spectacularly failed it how it's been used an excuse that it's not that say to say most he has done anything about it but let's not forget that the army has its own interest in the economy they have been invested heavily in the economy i mean to resume i don't vote for the economy and i have heard of these or more doing it but i mean it was the americans who wear the paymasters of the egyptian army using it as a safety net and as an insurance policy i need to inconceivable that this army would have moved and committed a coup case i fancy made and i think i should i want to thank my guests here all thanks to my guests in washington new york and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c.

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up on our team in a surprise move the defense in the bradley manning trial rested late this afternoon our team has been covering this trial from the beginning and we're at fort meade today for the courtroom drama. and egypt remains in a state of chaos while pro morsi protesters filled the streets arrest warrants were issued for muslim brotherhood leaders more on these developments and what's next for the country in turmoil. and some prison inmates in california are on a hunger strike we'll look at how many inmates are taking part and what their demands are later in today's show. it's wednesday july tenth four pm in washington d.c. .