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the only thing. hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered i'm peter a well with the military again in control after a coup what does the future hold for egypt is this country's experiment with democracy a thing of the past what signal does this send to islamic parties in the region and will washington's reputation among egyptians ever be redeemed. to cross-talk the chaos in egypt i'm joined by cynthia schneider in washington she is a professor at georgetown university and a senior nonresident fellow with the brookings institution we also have jeffrey ingersoll in new york he is a defense reporter with business insider and in london we crossed to so you believe

he's a political analyst and writer all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much appreciate it i'm cynthia franco to you first in washington is egypt in a process of self-destruction after this coup. no not at all but i can understand why you would say that i find that coverage of the events which by the way i would call the continuing revolution rather than a coup baffling to me i find so many people here who have actually never even heard of the grass roots use lead movement from a road which is the reason that millions and millions and millions of people egyptians came out onto the streets last sunday to protest the rule of mohamed morsi would you agree this was the king would you agree to

a coup military coup no i would not agree and i would not agree or i would put it this way if this is who. was the two thousand and eleven revolution because it's exactly the same as what happened in two thousand and eleven ok so you didn't look like you're going to go ahead. it's completely and utterly different because mubarak did not come through elections he was a dictator he was a tyrant he imposed himself and he was heavy backed up by the army in fact the army backed him up to the hilt it is the army who are running the show they are calling the shots they are heavy supported by the americans they call it aid to egypt is in fact not to eight to eighty is simply money to that military who are running the show who are have massive power to have been in center of the power mubarak was not talk while he was a dictator who was in democratic could be elected he wasn't me and he came from the

army he belongs to the army through and through and he imposed himself on that people while if we look at he was democratically elected as the be elected civvy and in egypt and he had the mandate to all four years the army moved against him they declared that cool hiding behind that people so we can say in every sense of the world what happened was clearly an updated more defined. way the army hi good to be behind the masses who were clamoring and demanding and then two more sees rule through demands i do mean again you know if you're going across got me going to be going to jeffrey new york where do you stand on this and there's a little bit of both here ok i can understand what cynthia is trying to say but if you look at the timeline you know you had the protesters come out by the millions and they were voicing some very legitimate concerns and the army backed them up and they gave morsi some time and morsi came out and tried to pull an obama with all

this hope and change stuff and he didn't really say anything of substance in the army took him out was that a coup yeah that's a textbook definition of a coup but was it was it backed by some popular consent it was backed by some popular consent now if you look in the past that how morsi was governing i mean he was a little bit more concerned with telling women. what they can wear than with rebuilding egypt you know if you're going to foist sharia law onto a bunch of secular people you better expect them to take to the streets. so that being said i think it's a little bit of a gray area here i don't think you can call it you know it's easy to want to call it a revolution it's easy to want to call it a coup it does fit the textbook definition of a coup but at the same time secy isn't sitting here trying to to be the new dictator he's not trying to be the new mubarak whatever you have to say well we don't know yet you know we have no idea you know we know that he's met yet cynthia go ahead jump in. well what i was going to say is that jeffrey i think you're right

about first of all egypt nothing is ever textbook and what will happen i think what's critical now is what will happen next and it could well it look if from what happened yesterday obviously these terrible massacres of muslim brotherhood people trying to reinstate morsi and then the reinstatement of the emergency the dreaded emergency law this does not look well i hear from my friends involved with the revolution and time are rude to they feel confident that they feel they are in charge that does not appear to be the case now i think what happens in the next few weeks is absolutely critical there has to be and it could well evolve into a military coup military dictatorship but i do think that the same millions of people who came out against the authoritarian dictatorial president morsi who

simply took all the power for himself without any accountability those same people will respond in the same way if the military does that as well they know how to protest what remains to be seen and i feel optimistic about this but it remains to be seen if the opposition which is very widespread this is not just you know university people very widespread throughout egyptian society if the opposition can coalesce organize and pressure the military to ensure a democratic transition and that remains to be ok and also what remains of the scene is going to go to london heads i. hold on hold on a minute let's just first of all look at the facts on the ground what city which who is general sisi who is the defense minister did when he first declared giving morsi only forty eight hours to sort out

a huge mess which was absolutely impossible here they knew full well that he was going to spectacularly failed because he's been trying to do have the last year and tried. to defend morsi don't get me wrong he has been trying to shift egypt to words more radical extremist islamist ideology and the muslim brotherhood has not been faithful to their people because it has shifted its rhetoric and its actions from a more direct. when it was out of power to ahmad more radical extremist javi said if they were trying to appease the one harvey's and the selfies to pull out kate increasing hostility from two words mostly they felt that the captain has had a major change of heart after this i mean it was forced out of power and after his architect of the must own mind of supporting them was what are those two words the prime minister and foreign minister was forced out took power so there was

a dramatic shift by the muslim brotherhood two words it right to kill islam that's where he has failed that's where he has antagonized the people but still the army issued a forty eight hour ultimatum which was that wasn't the case when they actually start when they actually sided with their people are against mubarak they gave them ample time to win over their people but they were hell bent on talking mercy and they took the opportunity by widespread support by their people but we must soon figure out the muslim brotherhood also have people on the ground and they feel that they have been directed by their own democratic people or and by the united states which have been advocating and pushing for and promising that it's going to. with that people they have backed up the army it is. a very good point gyptian all of you which has been the safety net what i made it to move against a democratically elected leader without the full hold i did support all of the all

of the americans and i know that you know was it not jump in here and i have for you what is the future of democracy now. oh all that said that's a tough question they want me to answer and in a soundbite the future of democracy is that when you get democratically elected you need to govern democratically have the picture and you know you can make your arguments about democratic american presidents or or you know any other country that democratically elected their president so i know that their partisan will keep what he wants to push your time and election quite there is no to find this for there now first thing you get was that for you i mean they measured the first star and you can't you can't step in you can step in and be extremist right away i mean i mean hey look at the americans what do you hope for this is what is of procedure it's not just this long to subvert the constitution to be super for design year now if you give this guy in a matter of eighteen months he's rewritten the constitution seized power and trying

to foist islamic law on the people and then when the army gave him a chance they only gave him a chance that he would get i was in china so i mean if he did gave the people gave me take a moment until it was over they say he did you don't know what you want to do with this is you don't do what he did for justice and he says i don't believe so they wanted him to take that with in his of maybe it's not was you know our action they removed him go ahead cynthia jump in you know democracy is much more than elections a good point and this in my view has been a fatal mistake that the united states has made in its policies in many places democracy requires much more than simply voting. and yes the people voted in president morsi and then he proceeded to govern in a mud giora terry n. way which really is an authoritarian way he did nothing to protect minorities quite the opposite he fanned the flames of sectarianism he took absolute power for

himself and he had no accountability whatsoever there were no other mechanisms left to protest he removed of all they could have there was no other. telling our history we haven't even talked about him being democratically elected and until you're blue in the faith it's going to turn democratically head that's what matters yes the ones that democratic way of dealing with it and even though that morsi was adopting and shifting to mordor i think the extremists wahhabi islam but that was another my can is him to do it to within democratic procedure and that is through an elected parliament he should have been pressured and you was moving to was the direction off a new parliamentary election through the parliament people who could help vote them out rather than to use the army which was in their way iching to talk to him and to

move him out of the picture because if you look at getting this eight month statement by city he actually told him if there is no compromise hammad out between the two parties within forty eight hours then we hope i want to own mob oh i don't grudge mob which by the way that road map is exactly i call them cope we all think demands made by you not to leave that time i wrote that is another huge force which is the national salvation front both of those and by the way tomorrow do it but now you know that. i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on each of state. i think one. is a. science

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a dollar. i'm sorry i'm just a guy who cares an awful lot like you sir are a fool you know what kind of mind the terrorist cells in your neighborhood all want to give us a defeat terrorism be a limp all the christian point you. can stick your beliefs about it's. going to corporate you to distract us from what you and i should care about because there are profit driven industry that sells us and facials to garbage he calls it breaking news i'm abby martin and we're going to break that. download the official publication to your cell phone choose your language stream

quality and enjoy your favorites from alzheimer's if you're away from your television or it just doesn't work so now with your mobile device you can watch r.t. any time anyway. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the political turmoil in egypt. ok since you've got to go back to you in washington what is the future of the muslim brotherhood now. you need chips so they're going to be allowed to run in the election it's well i think there is a. huge demand now and really the most important thing and i don't know if the

military will do this i don't know if they're up to it there needs to be a national reconciliation between the different parties and yes the muslim brotherhood should be and deserves to be included in the political process but by the way the last opinion poll that i'm aware of by the zajac be group play support for president morsi of twenty eight percent so it's not that there's huge massive support but they are a factor in egyptian society and they should be included the question is what will their leadership decide will they decide to remain outside and attempt to reinstate morsi by force which you know facing the egyptian army is a losing proposition and will only divide the country i hope that they will really enter the political process as they deserve to as do other groups as do for example

coptic christians and other groups in egypt and that there can be some kind of national reconciliation which is essential if you look at morsi speeches his actions he really was fostering division in egyptian society one of the biggest debates is around identity and say you referred to this egyptians do are not what hobbies they rejected the identity that the muslim brotherhood attempted to foist on them and the people perceive the muslim brotherhood as trying to take away the egyptian identity egypt is the center of the arab world the center of culture creativity innovation in the arab world the muslim brotherhood tried to take all that away the question is will they change from being in. hireling for the muslim brotherhood and be also for egypt if they don't do

that i don't know how they're going to succeed in egypt i want to go to london i mean why would the muslim brotherhood want to participate in another election i mean they changed the rules in the middle of the game why would they want to participate. because there is you know here which is they feel now that they are have been robbed to give to mishear of ruling egypt has been taken away from them and i do believe that the actions of the army which cannot be condoned that it's shooting right in the going to be that people peaceful protesters of basically playing into the hands of the muslim brotherhood it's true that the support for the muslim brotherhood that's emphatic and unequivocal backing they have when they were elected has tumbled todd's waned away because people in egypt are moderates they're not happy with their shifts they've seen in the months and by the that is moving from the moderate teachings of islam to wahhabi sellafield in order to please the east but there is a glaring contradiction that while the americans are trying to say that the. muslim

brotherhood has shifted towards more extreme islam the usa happens to be the greatest and this storm just and that close to the most dictatorial and bastion of dictatorship which is the adage which is what how the set of feet. backed up by a wahhabi selfie review just establishments which issues fact was that give religiously. religious backing and religious incentive to suicide bombers all over that that is in iraq and also in syria they have been put i don't know why this was a reaction i spent listening time advocating democracy they've backed up that's what we did you invaded battering against the wall of the battering the of people would have been clamoring for democracy human rights and political reform. so they can't have it both ways they can say they are democrats and at the same time not most. likely i want to jeffrey jeffrey in new york jump in are you in between the

two go ahead yeah you know i think i think i saw a design of something here and i think it's that the i think political islam is encouraged growing with democracy they totally did legitimize themselves they had an opportunity they had a chance egypt is the only place to do it so you can have a democratically elected. representative of a. political islamic organization it's just not going to work and i wouldn't be surprised speaking of geo political blowback you know i i know that he was cozying more morsi was cozying up to iran and that he sort of led talks with the gaza and israel thing you know and those are those are just superficial you know you know we might see in the way of making an offer till down when they go but what we will see what the blowback will be is years down the road is that it is perfectly right here in bahrain the saudis are you going to start to see some of these more islamic

governments have difficulty with their people especially people that want to have you know free will choice stuff like that so so yeah these these cascading effects they're going to go down and basically the only thing that the muslim brotherhood can do now is rebranding they can't you got to get rid of the sound from the language in the in the constitution that in all of these actions we have been going to again i just read the legal battle in london and there is still sharia law in there and that you know the secularists are not going to take that none of. us here in the u.s. who who show for the evangelicals that that's what the muslim brotherhood's going to have to do it they're going to completely rebranded not want to i think it's vital to mention to the conservative. political body and so much religious political body i mean a massive. speech in a rally which is a view g.v. by all sorts of radicals and fanatics while hobbies and senate feels he can really

buck them up and bikes that calls for what he calls jihad to go to syria to go to iraq to blow themselves up he had a major falling out with iran he was he he actually severed his relations immediately through the demands of all the set up piece on one hundred views with syria and the shifted its position dramatically behind the sellafield and what hobbies like job who are hot being financed who have been armed and backed up according to the unit the new york times that all the funding all the logistics came from. and also qatar who are the storm just and closes off the united states we can see the clear. in there and to say you were actually trying to move closer to iran is totally untrue he was trying to appease the you was trying to crack gate that whole state did him particularly after he became fully

aware that now their leadership out of bread every muslim already has now forward to that so he hollers more. like questions and i want to hear all i want is what i thought it was seriously. i would like if we could to redirect back to to egypt which i think is has less to do with all these global adventures than is is implied by this program the people of egypt rose because morsi was ruling as an authoritarian ruler and doing a phenomenally incompetent job of running the country the economy is in desperate shape that the each of egyptians are like anyone just like anyone else it's the economy stupid carried you think might. there's a bit of asians that are medical is the army have the saloon and they're hammering the role of the united states i think and the united states has managed to lose on

all sides in egypt it is perceived as backing the muslim brotherhood and president obama and our ambassador there sadly have been much too silent as morsi took more and more authoritarian powers you cannot say you stand for democracy and freedom and then stand by my. violated stands in the n.t. how does this is it of the united states to tell a country about its democracy exactly. you know and that's that's a dicey situation again. you're right what business is is it of the united states while we give them a lot of money that sort of makes it a little bit our business ok but in the same breath i think that they're trying to they're trying to backpedal a little bit they're trying not to say exactly which horse to pick and you know i got to give at least give the obama administration some credit in terms of being a little patient about what they're going to say and what they're not going to say

in the same breath you know i think that they should just let it play out i think that the same thing with syria i don't know why that is just don't let it play out the getting involved too heavily has never worked out for our advantage so why do it now in terms of of of morsi it was obvious that he wasn't yes he was democratically elected but he wasn't ruling as a he wasn't governing even me using the word ruling is indicative of how he governed you need to govern as a person for the people all the people and other that was his main mistake and so we got to and that's the future of political islam is going to leave it so you take it or leave it they're going to look you didn't. go ahead london go ahead last time good i do believe dr it is not the economy that could only has been doing bad. the when they do. i had them eighteen months old so chance to do something about it they actually spectacularly failed it how it's been used an excuse that this note

that said most he has done anything about it but let's not forget that we all mean has its own interest in the economy they have been invested heavily in the economy i mean i don't vote for the economy and i have to do it but i mean what the americans who wear that pay must all of the egyptian all be using it as a safety net and as an insurance policy i need to inconceivable that this army would have moved and could we take a fascinating discussion i want to thank my guests here all thanks to my guests in washington new york and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. technology

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