believe that that sneaky snowden was hiding on board trying to get to asylum in bolivia and beyond some might say that this is no big deal some present of some contras since he had a delayed flight for a few hours things happen man got to get that still guy at all costs right well one man's delayed flight is another man's imperial skyjacking you see the countries of latin america have a common history as being on the bad end of brutal western european imperialism and when the president of a former colony could just be abducted at the will of the you would have a plane search it sure makes you feel like you're still under the lash of foreign control doesn't it do any of you think for a moment that any e.u. officials who are so willing to ground morales would dare to do the same thing air force one i don't think so morale is clearly was treated like some sort of second class president and despite this insult they didn't even catch odin this is what i call a double fail but that's just my opinion. i

would rather as questions for people in positions of power instead of speak on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t. question more. please. hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lived. what

is the future of democracy in the arab middle east in the wake of the coup d'etat in egypt is this region condemned to a vicious cycle of uprisings and brutal suppression what about the claim islam and democracy are incompatible and does the west really have an interest in seeing the people of the middle east free to decide their own destinies. to cross-talk the future of democracy in the middle east i'm joined by stephen bucci in washington he is director of the allison center for foreign policy studies at the heritage foundation also in washington we have gareth porter he's an investigative journalist and author of the upcoming book manufactured crisis the untold story of iran's nuclear scare and in beirut we cross to name solemn he is a professor of international affairs and diplomacy are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want my very much encourage it even if i go to you first in the wake of the coup in egypt what is the future of

democracy in the region i think democracy still has a great chance in the middle east democracy and the transition to it does not happen overnight in anyone's country and to think it was going to go without any hiccups in all of these different countries was a bit naive so i'm very optimistic for the future but stephen it was you know it was unconstitutional and he was removed from power we don't know what's going to happen to him he hasn't been charged with a crime but he's being held i mean this is a lot more complicated than just unfortunate this time around. well i agree and in egypt you know the jury is still out we don't know where the military is going to take the new government and what the people in egypt are going to do so we're not. quite ready to bless them and say everything is fine by any means but the fact that they turned back mr morsi is efforts that were moving away from democracy in the military side. the people of egypt does not necessarily mean that there can dam to

a cycle of violence and repression again ok name if i go to you but the united states of siding with the military they continue to get their aid at least so far. well first on. july first second third of. july seventh and they might get states was hesitant to. take a position on. in the ship until yesterday this is the spokeswoman of the state department yes that came forward and. condemn it. of former president morsi making clear indications that the united states is in support of the military coup and then you course of action in egypt.

it took about that ten days for the united states state department and the white house to make up their mind on on what kind of policies they're going to do for the in egypt finally they said that on against islamic does that hurt and you support of course a faction which is that military will have the main say politics of egypt. coming or you can the military bring democracy to egypt can military bring democracy to the middle east. well it's theoretically possible someplace that some time that that might happen but certainly that's not very likely in egypt and you can put me down as a a skeptic with regard to the rhetoric of democracy and the arab spring with regard to u.s. and western policy the problem that i see is that that has really been a cover for. the the exertion of u.s.

policy the interests of u.s. policy in egypt and elsewhere in the region and of the case of egypt this is nowhere better illustrated than the the term that i've been hearing in washington the last few days coups volution the idea that you know the the effort to portray what happened in the egyptian military takeover as somehow a revolution rather than a coup d'etat and the reality of course is that that this is indeed the reassertion of the military's power and influence in gyptian society and their effort to guide that society in a direction that is going to preserve the military's interests including its very large control over parts of the egyptian economy so i mean this is to me

a perfect illustration of the problems that go along with presenting the politics in the middle east in terms of some sort of march toward democracy this is really you know this is covering up the fundamental issues and problems that are primary in the region and it's not just you know the egyptian military it's elsewhere in the region you have the sunni versus shia as the primary problem and western interest in continuing to maintain their own influence in the region as a third steven what do you think about that because when we hear that you know their support of the military but their support of civil society you know in that in the democratic process and there's a lot of contradictions there even people would say hypocrisy. well i think first of all you know garrets points are absolutely right it's a very very complex very convoluted situ way. it is not particularly black and

white women like you and they will tell me i did it with him playing a cook why can't they just say cook that's what it is why can't they just say if you give me a chance i'll just point to the. the the military sided with the people and throw in mubarak out and everybody applauded the for it they they got on the right side of history this time they sided with the people and they threw out morsi and everybody's upset and i can understand that the reason obama's administration is reluctant to use the word coup is because we have laws on the books here in the united states that as soon as you say it's a coup you have to cut off aid and right now as soon as they designated a coup theoretically we have to stop all aid we frankly would lose all influence over the situation there and i'm not sure that's necessarily wise i would disagree with gareth a little bit i think he's given united states policies a lot more credit for their influence on the situation and we have what the gyptian

people did has nothing to do with what the united states wanted or didn't want and i'm not even sure we have that much influence with the military over the last few months since mr morsi has been in power or our influence there has waned a great deal so while i agree it's very convoluted and i just i don't think the united states is calling the shots ok garrett jump in this is crosstalk go ahead let me just respond to that very quickly you know the problem is that the united states government. the obama administration. really from the beginning was very clear that they were supporting what the egyptian military was doing they've been shucking and jiving ever since the beginning of this crisis and as a good conservative i would think that that steve would would be saying yes it's time for this administration to follow the law rug. to hide behind this false

hood. that this was somehow something other than a coup d'etat i mean that's simply not an acceptable way for the united states to proceed and it's really time for conservatives to get on board with the rule of law in this country rather than to support a democratic administration that is really not being honest with the american people named you want to jump in and respond to what we have heard here go ahead. when the united states could not overlook what has been taking place in egypt over the past ten eleven days since the june thirtieth there were on drone thirtieth's in egypt some thirty three million people on the streets of various cities and towns all across egypt it is being said and it is through this is the biggest demo demonstration of popular do most nation probably in history this large number of people coming out to speak against. morsi and.

what it took only one year for the majority of egyptians to make up their mind and be against the islamic brotherhood in egypt primarily because that islamic brotherhood has used a democracy to get to pa and once they were in power they sought to. hijack the government system in their own way to that own ideology to. adopt miles and this city has a scared it off many egyptians including. a sunni muslim christian and as a whites the united states not but takes up into consideration and it's a new. policy toward egypt that is the u.s. cannot. take any negative position toward of egyptian military because this was

a slow or throw off stability in egypt for months and probably for years to come and the us cannot afford to see instability become rampant he should first and egypt is the axis of the arab world and the middle east this will cause a great deal of very good hold on let's say let's go ahead go ok at our core let it go ahead jump in because let me stop here to judge play you very important role and it should be some kind of model go ahead gareth. but but but the idea is that that the egyptian military's takeover of power in the wake of a democratic democratically elected government is stabilizing the country simply doesn't pass the laugh test and paul pillar the former national intelligence officer of the united states for the middle east and south asia just wrote the

other day that the killing of dozens of demonstrators by the egyptian military is a defining moment in the history of that country and the political history of egypt they have in fact taken a very fateful step that's what's destabilizing egypt not the u.s. the possibility of the united states saying giving the truthful description of what happened and saying you know the laws been violated we can't continue our aid to egypt let's let's tell the truth here and not try to hide it all right gentlemen i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on democracy states that are keeping. the.

they all told me my language well but i will only react to situations as i have read the reports so unlike the players i know i will leave them to the state department to comment on your latter point of the month so it's secure yet a car is on the docket no. joke no more weasel words when you made a direct question be prepared for a change when you have to punch be ready for a battle for the office speech and little down the freedom to cost. speak your language. school music programs and documentaries in spanish

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enjoy your favorites. if you're away from your television just. now with your mobile device you can watch on t.v. anytime anywhere. please. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle ter mind you were discussing the future of democracy in the middle east. ok see if i could go back to you in a way in washington we how would other islamic groups now see demise. prosy in the region because they'll say you know these guys they don't play by the rules why

should we be part of this process you know it's that this is a defining moment in that respect go ahead. but first of all just to respond to garrett's earlier comment i do agree with him absent a change in u.s. law this was a coup d'etat i think the president they have to cut off aid in less congress take some steps to come up with an exception to deal with this frankly kind of nuance situation which naim pointed out it wasn't just the military who did this there were thirty one million people in the streets trying to change the system because the they popped out of the. what was true democracy and started moving in a wrong direction you don't get a pass just because you've been elected to then do whatever you darn well please with the country and i think the egyptian people showed that that's not what they want to do gareth pass what about the rule of law that is you know you've got to go

ahead yeah the rule of law is still the single biggest problem here and you know the morsi government whatever its faults had not cancelled democratic elections in in egypt you know the rhetoric of the united states has always been well you know people who are dissatisfied with the situation should use the vote to make change and that was still possible in egypt and to have the military takeover and use force in the situation clearly is not the answer it's not going to help it was a huge mistake it was a huge mistake to rely on force rather than to wait until the next election to unseat the morsy government that's what should have happened and just let me add that you know we have a situation in egypt as we do in turkey and in iran where you have. ideas that are deeply divided between islamic populations who who feel strongly that the

government should reflect their islamic character and people who believe that it should not people who are essentially you know non religious in their political views and in that situation it's much more important than it is otherwise to rely on the vote rather than to rely on violence and takeovers by street protesters to decide how to deal with this very very difficult historical problem name in beirut what about well the muslim brotherhood be allowed back into politics should they be. let me point out that more than one year ago when some of them brotherhood one. presidential election in egypt with more than slightly more than fifty percent of the vote i said then that that islamist will be their own very furthest enemies they will shoot some

senses in the foot so in order that why because they would seek to monopolize the power and drives zaslav site at the end of the country and it took only one year for any law and a growing number of. to realize that and put third and again some of the progress that is that's that's what had happened you nigeria in one nine hundred ninety one ninety two when the islamic some patient from the election and then within a short time the military and the popular us government against them because they look cool would have been what you like i mean i think fifty thousand people died remember the result unfortunately and fortunately this is a byproduct of g. and don't mind when ideologies seek to do one up our lives that only the. you and seek to implementing it and apply it on the population with how much diplomacy with

how much you give and take as what's happening as we've seen with this president former president morsi this would be the final outcome or the expected consequences of that model see not where you want to go but what i thought we were going to see and i'm now you dialogue go ahead jump in go ahead. why not why not wait until the next election to voted out of office if that's the case and i agree with you that you know the morsi government you know basically did not. was not successful in winning the confidence of the population but the whole point of this exercise was this to wait until the next election why not do that naive that that one is that was until the next that's a good question my friend. that's a very good question and let me answer that is that reason is why we're not going in for the next election because that actions and the acts of the muslim brotherhood and not see himself as web so so to. incite think

people for instance in a town just outside cairo about six hundred christian where viktor differ from their houses and for fire for example. by some muslim brotherhood supporter base it on religious reason i'm not that incident took place in which four or five a shiite. will worship or way to kill it also and i was on the phone and in central asia and grow to see that not condones that did not take strong reaction of that so we should oppose that going into a conflagration you know a vicious cycle is the last ten days that continues to happen ok it continues to happen under the military rule right now it's a fortunate thing and i was happy for the way what it got. was it was ok steve i mean if i could let me just let me go to the the money go to steve in washington i

mean muslims now may not participate in the democratic process in egypt and across the region that's worrisome isn't it. it isn't i don't i think you're trying to make this a monolithic group ing when you say to muslims i think there's going to be a whale of a lot of gyptian is who will participate in will be a little more circumspect about voting for somebody like mr morsi who does have a lot of baggage who does have a history of extremism and you know i hope and i think all all men of and women of goodwill hope that egypt moves to an election as quickly as possible gets the military at a power and puts it back in the hands of the civilians but i think the egyptian people the year that is referred to have learned a lot about the process that one election does not a democracy make you can have the election but well there are a lot of elections and i would have brought with you on every single one of them ok

. gareth what do you think about this the capital of you know go ahead you know the point i would add to what steve is just said is that you know military coups this is not democracy make either you know. the ground completely in the middle point i think that we're looking at straight in the face right now steve you want to reply to that. it's not going to help i agree completely word we're not we're not thrilled that the military did this but the military good didn't just dream it up on their own and started from scratch they did it in response to millions of egyptians in the street as they did before when everybody thought it was a great idea so it's we've got to make sure that we're consistent and i agree with gareth the united states government must be consistent with its own laws and its own principles but we we as commentators need to be consistent too that last time it was fine for the military to intervene on the side of the people and this time

when they did it it's it's problematic. i'm not sure we're ever going to win but i suppose he did it on the record for the possible ok gary hold on the reason for that steve is that the reason for that is that when when the united states supported the popular protests against the mubarak regime it wasn't a democratically elected government example it just wasn't that's a fairly big difference now what do you think the by the way the united states was very slow to support the pillar uprising against mubarak as well just to make to make it clear a name what do you think of the future of islamic parties in the region when it comes to elections now. i think. and in the long run the army groups and our board was that in in

tunisia in libya in egypt in yemen or in syria they are going backward and not forward because they are not on that island side of history . would development and the evolution of political system and history worldwide was i think you would. in the west in general in american continent in russia everywhere is has been going is that action of crossing and liberalism liberalism in meaning where design government does not interfere in the private life of an individual and people what to eat or what to drink or when to fast the what not to fast but what to do when to pray what not to play etc this will incite many people to be against such kind of orientation ok liberalism has named as but that's exactly what that's exactly what the military in egypt is going to do. for the time being anyway. it's

a military in egypt is basically seen by the population as a savior according to google it was there were thirty three million people on the streets of egypt on google earth on june thirtieth and that many thirty could not but listen to that could not take that into consideration and it was this sort of very reason that united states and the west in general has played a low key in condemning all stand or taking a. position road or yanni to be against. it is that so why is this ok john mayer garrett's offense thirty seconds could it be allowed to on the program go ahead. well i think the point that i want to make here is simply that the enemy of of change the kind of

change that name is talking about and that clearly is is going to be needed no long run is anything that involves the use of force which invites of course destabilisation violence and frustrates precisely the kind of change that we all want all right on that note thank you very much gentlemen many thanks to my guests in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember astarte. a little. easier.

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report on our. political. culture. i click. that street. which i. think it's a good. play.

edward snowden has called a conference at the moscow airport he's been holed up in sources saying he'll find . surveillance really does pay so says a new report finding that american corporations are raking in millions. to government agencies. to take to the streets all across egypt as the country remains political turmoil. playing straight into the hands of the army. calls in six hundred extra police to keep order. as unionists protest the decision to shorten the route.