evo morales is playing in austria and even twelve nations in latin america are coming together to discuss the consequences of the event the plane was forced to the ground while flying over the e.u. because it was believed that that sneaky snowden was hiding on board trying to get to asylum in bolivia and beyond some might say that this is no big deal some present of some contra since he had a delayed flight for a few hours things happen man got to get that still guy at all costs right well one is delayed flight is another man's imperial skyjacking you see the countries of latin america have a common history as being on the bad end of brutal western european imperialism and when the president of a former colony could just be abducted at the will of the you would have his plane search it sure makes you feel like you're still under the lash of foreign control doesn't it to any of you think for a moment that any e.u. officials who are so willing to ground morales would dare to do the same thing air force one i don't think so morose clearly was treated like some sort of second class president and despite this insult they didn't even catch oden this is what i

call a double fail but that's just my opinion. hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle what is the future of democracy in the arab middle east in the wake of the coup d'etat in egypt is this region condemned to a vicious. uprisings and brutal suppression what about the claim islam and

democracy are incompatible and does the west really have an interest in seeing the people of the middle east free to decide their own destinies. to cross out the future of democracy in the middle east i'm joined by stephen bucci in washington he is director of the allison center for foreign policy studies at the heritage foundation also in washington and we have gareth porter he's an investigative journalist and author of the upcoming book manufactured crisis the untold story of iran's nuclear scare and in beirut we cross to solemn he is a professor of international affairs and diplomacy are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want my very much encourage it even if i go to you first in the wake of the coup in egypt what is the future of democracy in the region i think democracy still has a great chance in the middle east democracy and the transition to it does not

happen overnight in anyone's country and to think it was going to go without any hiccups in all of these different countries was a bit naive so i'm very optimistic for the future but stephen it was you know it was unconstitutional and he was removed from power we don't know what's going to happen to him he hasn't been charged with a crime but he's being held i mean this is a lot more complicated than just unfortunate this time around. well i agree and in egypt you know the jury is still out we don't know where the military is going to take the new government and what the people in egypt are going to do so we're not. quite ready to bless them and say everything is fine by any means but the fact that they turned back mr morsi is efforts that we're moving away from democracy in the military side with the people of egypt does not necessarily mean that they're condemned to a cycle of. and then repression again ok name if i go to the united states of

siding with the military they continue to get their aid at least so far. well first on june thirtieth and july first second third of. july seventh and they might get states was hesitant to. take a position on. in mishit until yesterday the spokeswoman of the state department yes that came forward and. condemn it. of former president morsi making clear indications that they might be the state is in support of the military coup and then you course of action in egypt. it took about that ten days for the united states state department and the white house but make up their mind on on what kind of policies they're going to do for

though in egypt finally they said that on and against islamic does that hurt and you support of course a faction in which that military would have the main say politics of egypt is that coming over or you can kinda military bring democracy to egypt can military bring democracy to the middle east. well it's theoretically possible someplace that some time that that might happen but certainly that's not very likely in egypt and you can put me down as a a skeptic with regard to the rhetoric of democracy and the arab spring with regard to u.s. and western policy the problem that i see is that that has really been a cover for the exertion of u.s. policy the interests of u.s. policy. in egypt and elsewhere in the region and of the case of egypt this is

nowhere better illustrated then the the the term that i've been hearing in washington the last few days coup volution the idea of you know the the effort to portray what happened in the egyptian military takeover as somehow a revolution rather than a coup d'etat and the reality of course is that that this is indeed the reassertion of the military's power and influence in gyptian society and their effort to guide that society in a direction that is going to preserve the military's interests including its very large control over parts of the egyptian economy so i mean this is to me a perfect illustration of the problems that go along with presenting the politics in the middle east in terms of some sort of march toward democracy

this is really you know this is covering up the fundamental issues and problems that are primary in the region and it's not just you know the egyptian military it's elsewhere in the region you have the sunni versus shia as the primary problem and western interest in continuing to maintain their own influence in the region as a third steven what do you think about that because when we hear that you know their support of the military but their support of civil society you know in that in the democratic process and there's a lot of contradictions there even people would say hypocrisy. well i think first of all you know garrets points are absolutely right it's a very very complex very convoluted situation it is not particularly black and white you know we don't like it and they will tell me somebody told him plainly cooked why can't they just say cook at. that is why can't i say if you give me

a chance i'll just point leads to the. the the military sided with the people and thrown mubarak out and everybody applauded the for it they they got on the right side of history this time they sided with the people and they threw out morsi and everybody's upset and i can understand that the reason obama's administration is reluctant to use the word coup is because we have laws on the books here in the united states that as soon as you say it's a coup you have to cut off aid and right now soon as they designated a coup theoretically we have to stop all aid we frankly would lose all influence over the situation there and i'm not sure that's necessarily wise i would disagree with gareth a little bit i think he's given united states policies a lot more credit for their influence on the situation and we have what the gyptian people did has nothing to do with what the united states wanted or didn't want and

i'm not even sure we have that much influence with the military over the last few months since mr morsi has been in power or our influence there has waned a great deal so while i agree it's very convoluted and i just i don't think the united states is calling the shots ok garrett jump in this is crosstalk go ahead let me just respond to that very quickly you know the problem is that the united states government the obama administration. really from the beginning was very clear that they were supporting what the egyptian military was doing they've been shucking and jiving ever since the beginning of this crisis and as a good conservative i would think that that steve would would be saying yes it's time for this administration to follow the law rather than to hide behind this falshood. that this was somehow something. then

a coup d'etat i mean that's simply not an acceptable way for the united states to proceed and it's really time for conservatives to get on board with the rule of law in this country rather than to support a democratic administration that is really not being honest with the american people named you want to jump in and respond to what we have heard here go ahead. when the united states could not overlook what has been taking place in egypt over the past ten eleven days since the june thirtieth there were on drone thirtieth's in egypt some thirty three million people on the streets of various cities and towns all across egypt it is being said and it is through this is the biggest demonstration of popularity most nation of probably in history this large number of people coming out to speak against. morsi and more than a put out support it took only one year for the majority of egyptians to

make up their mind and be against the islamic brotherhood in egypt primarily because the islamic brotherhood has used the democracy to get to pot and once they were in power they sought to. hijack the government system in their own way to their own ideology to their own dogma i don't miles and this city has a scared it off many egyptians including. a sunni muslim christian and others are whites and the united states not bought exact into consideration and it's a new. policy toward egypt that is the u.s. cannot. take any negative position toward of egyptian military because this was a slow throw off. that the egypt for months and probably for years to come

and the us cannot afford to see instability become iran he should first and egypt is that axis of the arab world and the middle east this will cause a great deal of the regular people and let's say let's hope you've got your head go ok at our core let's go ahead jump in because. egypt does play a very important role and it should be some kind of model go ahead karen. but the idea is that that the egyptian military's takeover of power in the wake of a democratic democratically elected government is stabilizing the country simply doesn't pass the laugh test and paul pillar the former national intelligence officer of the united states for the middle east and south asia just wrote the other day that the killing of dozens of demonstrators by the egyptian

military is a defining moment in the history of that country in the political history of egypt they have in fact taken a very fateful step that's what's destabilizing egypt not the u.s. the possibility of the united states saying giving the truthful description of what happened and saying you know the laws been violated we can't continue our aid to egypt let's let's tell the truth here and not try to hide it all right gentlemen i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on democracy state darkie. meeting with.

the interview. i'm not used to the tundra to freedom i am my dear.

came. in second grade i ran away from the boarding school with to my friends will be around to the tundra. of the tundra is just miskito that practically i don't know how people can live there to get in there no t.v.'s in the tenth how can i send my child to boarding school that i won't be able to sleep at night after that. they enter a life without knowledge of how to do basic things they don't get that in school. some of these traditional chili lines they've been bred and developed and passed down from generation. to the told destruction of the culture of mexico by telling them what i mean this is not going to impact asylum in mexico whatever happens here about the whole world now we're eating out about school in the in the marrow in the

face in all the organs. genetically engineered crops why do you think this country is full of obese people because we have a crappy food system. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the future of democracy in the middle east. ok stephen i can go back to you in a way in washington i mean how would other islamic groups now see democracy in the region because they'll say you know these guys they don't play by the rules why

should we be part of this process you know it's that this is a defining moment in that respect go ahead. but first of all just to respond to carrots earlier comment i do agree with them absent a change in u.s. law this was a coup d'etat i think the president they have to cut off aid in the last congress take some steps to come up with an exception to deal with this frankly kind of nuance situation which niamh pointed out it wasn't just the military who did this there were thirty one million people in the streets trying to change the system because the they popped out of the. what was true democracy and started moving in a wrong direction you don't get a pass just because you've been elected then do whatever you darn well please with the country and i think the egyptian people showed that that's not what they want to do get

a pass what about the rule of law. law is you know you've got to go ahead yeah the rule of law is still the single biggest problem here and you know the morsi government whatever its faults had not cancelled democratic elections in in egypt you know the rhetoric of the united states has always been well you know people who are dissatisfied with the situation should use the vote to make change and that was still possible in egypt and to have the military takeover and use force in this situation clearly is not the answer it's not going to help it was a huge mistake it was a huge mistake to rely on force rather than to wait until the next election to unseat the morsy government that's what should have happened and just let me add that you know we have a situation in egypt as we do in turkey and in iran where you have societies that are deeply divided between islamic populations who who feel strongly that the

government should reflect their islamic character and the people who believe that it should not people who are essentially you know non religious in their political views and in that situation it's much more important than it is otherwise to to rely on the vote rather than to rely on violence and takeovers by street protesters. to decide how to deal with this very very difficult historical problem naming de road what about well the muslim brotherhood be allowed back into politics should they be. let me point i would say that more than one year ago when some of them brotherhood one. presidential election in egypt with more than just slightly more than fifty percent of the vote i said then

that that islamist. will be their own very furthest enemies they will shoot some senses in the foot sooner or later but why because they would seek to monopolize the power and drives. the country and it took only one year for a largely a growing number of. to realise that and to turn against some of them. that's what had happened in algeria in one nine hundred ninety one ninety two when the islamic some tension from the election and then within a short time the military and the populace against them because they look what happened to flight as if a fifty thousand people died remember the result unfortunately unfortunately this is a byproduct of ideology and dogma when i view it as you see two to one up our lives that all of you and seek to implemented and apply on the population without much

diplomacy without much give and take as what's happening as we've seen with this president former president morsi this would be the final outcome or the expected consequences of that model see not. what i thought we were going to hear and i'm tired of go ahead gary jump in godhead. why not why not wait until the next election to voted out of office if that's the case and i agree with you that you know the morsi government you know basically did not. was not successful in winning the confidence of the population but the whole point of this exercise well this to wait until the next election why not do that naive that that one is that was until the next that's a good question my friend. that's a very good question and let me answer that is that reason is why we're not going in for the next election because that actions and the acts of the muslim

brotherhood and not see himself as web so so to. incite i think. for instance. in a town just outside of cairo about six hundred christian where viktor differ from their houses and four or five of them. by some of them but it doesn't support the base at all religious reason i'm not that incident took place in which four or five shiite. worship or way to kill it off and i was on the phone and in. egypt and to see that not condones that did not take strong reaction of that so you have a place where you go into a conflagration you know a vicious i guess in the last ten days that continues to happen ok it continues to happen under the military rule right now it's a fortunate thing and i was happy but from what i got there was it was ok steve i

mean if i could let me just let me go to the the money go to steve in washington i mean muslims now may not participate in the democratic process in egypt and across the region that's worrisome isn't it. why it is and i don't i think you're trying to make this a monolithic grouping when you say muslims i think there's going to be a whale of a lot of gyptian who will part. it's a paid and will be a little more circumspect about voting for somebody like mr morsi who does have a lot of baggage who does have a history of extremism and you know i hope and i think all all men of and women of goodwill hope that egypt moves to an election as quickly as possible gets the military at a power and puts it back in the hands of the civilians but i think the egyptian people the year that is referred to have learned a lot about the process that one election does not a democracy make you can have the election but well there are a lot of elections but that's what i do on every single one of them ok. gareth what

do you think about this the if you know it's go ahead you know of the point i would add to what steve has just said is that you know a military coup does not democracy make either you know. like the middle point i think that we're looking at straight in the face right now steve you want to reply to that. it's not going to help i agree completely word we're not we're not thrilled that the military did this but the military good didn't just dream it up on their own and started from scratch they did it in response to millions of egyptians in the street as they did before when everybody thought it was a great idea so it's we've got to make sure that we're consistent and i agree with gareth the united states government must be consistent with its own laws and its own principles but we we as commentators need to be consistent too that last time

it was fine for the military to intervene on the side of the people and this time when they did it it's it's problematic. i'm not sure we're ever going to win but i still hear that on the record for the possible ok hold on the reason for that steve is that the reason for that is that when when the united states supported the popular protests against the mubarak regime it wasn't a democratically elected government example it just wasn't that's a fairly big difference now what do you think the by the way the united states was very slow to support the bill or uprising against mubarak as well just to make the make it clear. what do you think of the future of islamic parties in the region when it comes to elections now. i think. it's a long. slimy groups and our board was in in tunisia

in libya in egypt in yemen or in syria they are going backward and not forward because they are not on the lights light of history. development and the evolution of political system and history worldwide was i think you are. in the west in general in american continent in russia everywhere is has been going is that action of grandma crossly and liberalism liberalism in a meaning where design government does not interfere in the private life of an individual and people what to eat or what the drink or when to fast the what not to fast but what to do when to pray what not to pray etc this will incite many people to be against such kind of for young patient ok liberalism has named it but that's exactly what it that's that's exactly what the military in egypt is going to do.

for the time being anyway. the military in egypt is basically seen by the population as a savior according to google it was there were thirty three million people on the streets of egypt on google earth on june thirtieth and their military could not but listen to that could not take that into consideration and it was this sort of very reason that the united states and the west in general has played a low key in condemning or stand or taking a. position. or yanni to be against. it is that so why is this ok mr garrett the first thirty seconds could it be allowed to on the program go ahead. well i think the point that i want to make here is simply that. the enemy of of change the kind of change that

name is talking about and that clearly is is going to be needed no long run is anything that involves the use of force which invites of course destabilisation violence and frustrates precisely the kind of change that we all want all right on that note thank you very much gentlemen many thanks today to my. yes in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember.

this journey is not about seeing the world. it's a mission that i could to myself the project won't succeed if i stay in the same place all the time. i've been travelling around the world for twenty days so far in all the time i haven't spent any money at all the main idea of the project is of the artist paints people's portraits in return for some kids. we have to get used to each other i think is a little disappointed about the bus a thing because we're still spending a lot of money i mean if i spend it shouldn't worry about that right now i don't think so goes a great artist but i don't think it's a coma you know if you don't like the painting that you just don't give anything.

download the official application to yourself choose your language stream quality and enjoy your favorites from alzheimer's if you're away from your television just doesn't matter now with your mobile device you can watch on t.v. anytime anywhere. but all told i'm a language as well but i will only react to situations i have read the reports to i'm not in a position to know i will leave them to the state department to comment on your latter point of the month to say it's. a car is on the docket no god. radio no more weasel words when you vade a direct question be prepared for a chase when you throw a punch be ready for a battle freedom of speech. down to freedom to crush.

added snowden is expected to release his first public statement since arriving in moscow right now the whistleblower is meeting human rights activists an apple trans and. also this hour telecom giants exposed by snowden's latest leaks are accused of cashing in on visas data by giving the u.s. government unfettered access. under age or braces for more while project folding more than a week old data like clutches caused by the military backed ousting of the country's president. this is all see coming to you live from moscow hello and welcome to the program.