risings in brutal suppression what about the claim islam and democracy are incompatible and does the west really have an interest in seeing the people of the middle east free to decide their own destinies. to cross out the future of democracy in the middle east i'm joined by steven bucci in washington he is director of the allison center for foreign policy studies at the heritage foundation also in washington we have gareth porter he's an investigative journalist and author of the upcoming book manufactured crisis the untold story of iran's nuclear scare and in beirut we cross to name solemn he is a professor of international affairs and diplomacy are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it even if i go to you first in the wake of the coup in egypt what is the future of democracy in the region i think democracy still has a great chance in the middle east democracy and the transition to it does not

happen overnight in anyone's country and to think it was going to go without any hiccups in all of these different countries was a bit naive so i'm very optimistic for the future but stephen it was you know it was unconstitutional and he was removed from power we don't know what's going to happen to him he hasn't been charged with a crime but he's being held i mean this is a lot more complicated than just unfortunate this time around. well i agree and in egypt you know the jury is still out we don't know where the military is going to take the new government and what the people in egypt are going to do so we're not. quite ready to bless them and say everything is fine by any means but the fact that they turned back mr morsi is efforts that we're moving away from democracy in the military side with the people of egypt does not necessarily mean that they're condemned to a cycle of violence and were. russian again ok name if i go to you but the united

states is siding with the military they continue to get their aid at least so far. when focused on june thirtieth and july first second third of. july seventh and eight so you might get states was hesitant to. take a position on. in mishit until yesterday this is the spokeswoman of the state department yes that came forward and. condemn it. of former president morsi making it clear indications that the united states is in support of the military coup and then you course of action in egypt. it took about that ten days for the united states state department and the white house to make up their mind on on what kind of policies that going to do for the in

egypt finally they set them on again. islamic does that hurt and you support of course a faction which is that military would have the main say politics of egypt. coming over or you can the military bring democracy to egypt can military bring democracy to the middle east. well it's theoretically possible someplace that some time that that might happen but certainly that's not very likely in egypt and you can put me down as a a skeptic with regard to the rhetoric of democracy and the arab spring with regard to u.s. and western policy the problem that i see is that that has really been a cover for the exertion of u.s. policy the interests of u.s. policy in. egypt and elsewhere in the region and of the case of egypt this is

nowhere better illustrated thembi the term that i've been hearing in washington the last few days coup volution the idea of you know the effort to portray what happened in the egyptian military takeover as somehow a revolution rather than a coup d'etat and the reality of course is that this is indeed the reassertion of the military's power and influence in gyptian society and their effort to guide that society in a direction that is going to preserve the military's interests including its very large control over parts of the egyptian economy so i mean this is to me a perfect illustration of the problems that go along with presenting the politics in the middle east in terms of some sort of march toward democracy

this is really you know this is covering up the fundamental issues and problems that are primary in the region and it's not just you know the egyptian military it's elsewhere in the region you have the sunni versus shia as the primary problem and western interest in continuing to maintain their own influence in the region as a third stephen what do you think about that because when we hear that you know their support of the military but their support of civil society you know in that in the democratic process and there's a lot of contradictions there even people would say hypocrisy. well i think first of all you know garrets points are absolutely right it's a very very complex very convoluted situation it is not particularly black and white women like you and they will tell me i need you to let him play like cook why can't they did sekou that's what it is why can't i say if you give me

a chance out west point me to the. the the military sided with the people and thrown mubarak out and everybody applauded the for it they got on the right side of history this time they sided with the people and they threw out morsi and everybody's upset and i can understand that the reason obama's administration is reluctant to use the word coup is because we have laws on the books here in the united states that as soon as you say it's a coup you have to cut off aid and right now as soon as they designated a coup theoretically we have to stop all aid we frankly would lose all influence over the situation there and i'm not sure that's necessarily wise i would disagree with gareth a little bit i think he's given united states policies a lot more credit for their influence on the situation than we have what the gyptian people did has nothing to do with what the united states wanted or didn't

want and i'm not even sure we have that much influence with the military over the last few months since mr morsi has been in power or our influence there has waned a great deal so while i agree it's very convoluted and i just i don't think the united states is calling the shots ok garrett jump in this is cross talk go ahead let me just respond to that very quickly you know the problem is that the united states government the obama administration. really from the beginning was very clear that they were supporting what the egyptian military was doing they've been shucking and jiving ever since the beginning of this crisis and that's a good conservative i would think that that steve would would be saying yes it's time for this administration to follow the law rather than to hide behind this falshood the that this was somehow something other than a coup d'etat i mean that's simply not an acceptable way for the united states to

proceed in. and it's really time for conservatives to get on board with the rule of law in this country rather than to support a democratic administration that is really not being honest with the american people named you want to jump in and respond to what we have right here go ahead. when the united states could not overlook what has been taking place in egypt over the past ten eleven days since a joint thirty s. there were on draw in egypt some thirty three million people on the streets of various cities and towns all across egypt it is being said and it is through this is the biggest demonstration of popular remorse nation of probably in history this large number of people coming out to speak against. morsi and. it took only one year. of. to make up their

mind and be against the islamic brotherhood in egypt primarily because the islamic brotherhood has used a democracy to get to pot and once they were in power they sought to. hijack the government system in their own way to their own ideology to sit on a dock miles and this city has a scared it off many egyptians including. a sunni muslim christian and as our rights and the united states not bought the exact into consideration and it's a new. policy toward egypt that is the u.s. cannot. take any negative position toward of egypt because this was a slow throw off that the in egypt for months and probably for years to come

and the u.s. . cannot afford to see instability become iran he should first and egypt is that axis of the arab world and the middle east this will. be all the way to hold on let's say let's go ahead go ok adequate let's go ahead jump in because. egypt does play a very important role and it should be some kind of model go ahead karen but the idea of that the egyptian military's takeover of power in the wake of a democratic democratically elected government is stabilizing the country simply doesn't pass the laugh test and paul pillar the former national intelligence officer of the united states for the middle east and south asia just wrote the other day that the killing of dozens of demonstrators by the egyptian

military is a defining moment in the history of that country in the political history of egypt they have in fact taken a very fateful step that's what's destabilizing egypt not the u.s. the possibility of the united states saying giving the truthful description of what happened and saying you know the laws been violated we can't continue our aid to egypt let's let's tell the truth here and not try to hide it all right gentlemen i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on democracy state darkie. meeting with.

the interview. to. hold it. hold it hold it. clint.

goodspeed. her. i wish i. lived. a long slow good. luck. and. find i'm a better little. soldier my language a whole but i will only react to situations i have read the reports. for years and know i will leave them to stay behind and comment on your letters. so it's.

no more weasel words. when you question me prepared for a change when you punish the ready for a bad. freedom of speech and now the freedom to cast. what defines a country's success. baselessly years of economic growth. or a factual standard of living.

is a. welcome back to cross talk are all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the future of democracy in the middle east. ok stephen i can go back to you in a way in washington i mean how would other islamic groups now see democracy in the region because they'll say you know these guys they don't play by the rules why should we be part of this process you know it's that this is a defining moment in that respect go ahead. but first of all just to respond to carrots earlier comment i do agree with them absent a change in u.s.

law this was a coup d'etat i think the president they have to cut off aid in the last congress take some steps to come up with an exception to deal with this frankly kind of nuance situation which now pointed out it wasn't just the military who did this there were thirty one million people in the streets trying to change this system because the they popped out of. the. what was true democracy and started moving in a wrong direction you don't get a pass just because you've been elected to then do whatever you darn well please with the country and i think the egyptian people showed that that's not what they want to do gareth pass what about the rule of law that is you know you've got to go ahead yeah the rule of law is still the single biggest problem here and you know the morsi government whatever its faults had not cancelled democratic elections in

in egypt you know the rhetoric of the united states has always been well you know people who are dissatisfied with the situation should use the vote to make change and that was still possible in egypt and to have the military takeover and use force in the situation clearly is not the answer it's not going to help it was a huge mistake it was a huge mistake to rely on force rather than to wait until the next election to unseat the morsy government that's what should have happened and just let me add that you know we have a situation in egypt as we do in turkey and in iran where you have societies that are deeply divided between islamic populations who who feel strongly that the government should reflect their islamic character and the people who believe that it should not people who are essentially you know non religious in their political views and in that situation it's much more important than it is otherwise to

to rely on the vote rather than to rely on violence and takeovers by street protesters to to decide how to deal with this very very difficult historical problem name in beirut what about will the muslim brotherhood be allowed back into politics should they be. let me point out that more than one year ago when some of them brotherhood one. presidential election in egypt was smores on slightly more than fifty percent of the vote i said then that the islamist will be their own very first enemies they will shoot some senses in the foot sooner or later why because they would seek to monopolize the power and drives. the country and it took only one year for

a large growing number of banks to realize that and to turn against some of them. that's what had happened in algeria in one nine hundred ninety one ninety two when the islamic some tension from the election and then within a short time the military and the populace against them because they look would have been like as if a fifty thousand people died remember the result unfortunately unfortunately this is a byproduct of geology and don't mind when i view all of you seek to do one up our lives then all of you and seek to implemented and apply it on the population without much diplomacy without much give and take as what's happening as we've seen with this president former president morsi this would be the final outcome or the expected consequences of that model see not where you want to go but what about

when you go to europe and i'm tired of go ahead gary jump in go ahead. why not why not wait until the next election to voted out of office if that's the case and i agree with you that you know the morsi government you know basically did not. was not successful in winning the confidence of the population but the whole point of this exercise was this to wait until the next election why not do that naive that that one is that was until the next that's a good question my friend. that's a very good question and let me answer that is that reason is why that we're not going for the next election because that actions and the actress of the muslim brotherhood and not see himself as web so so to. incite i think. for instance. in a town just outside cairo about six hundred christian where viktor different

from their home houses and four or five of them killed by some of them but also who support that base it on religious reasons i'm not that incident took place in which four or five shiite. worship or way to kill it on something that was on the phone and in. egypt and grow to see that not condones that did not take strong reaction of that so egypt was that. conflagration you know a vicious i guess in the last ten days that continues to happen ok it continues to happen under the military rule right now it's a fortunate thing that it was happy but from what you got there was it was ok steve i mean if i could let me just let me go to the money go to steve in washington mean muslims now may not participate in the democratic process in egypt and across the region that's worrisome isn't it. why it is and i don't i think you're trying to make this a monolithic group ing when you say muslims i think there's going to be

a whale of a lot of the gyptian who will part. it's a paid in will be a little more circumspect about voting for somebody like mr morsi who does have a lot of baggage who does have a history of extremism and you know i hope and i think all all men of and women of goodwill hope that egypt moves to an election as quickly as possible gets the military at a power and puts it back in the hands of the civilians but i think the egyptian people the year that is referred to have learned a lot about the process that one election does not a democracy make you can have the election but well there are a lot of elections but that's probably what i do on every single one of them ok. gareth what do you think about the deficit of you know it's you know the the point i would add to what steve has just said is that you know a military coup does not democracy make either you know. the grandkids

leafletting a middle point i think that we're looking at straight in the face right no steve you want to reply to that. it's not going to help i agree completely word we're not we're not thrilled that the military did this but the military good didn't just dream it up on their own and started from scratch they did it in response to millions of egyptians in the street as they did before when everybody thought it was a great idea so it's we've got to make sure that we're consistent and i agree with gareth the united states government must be consistent with its own laws and its own principles but we we as commentators need to be consistent too that last time it was fine for the military to intervene on the side of the people and this time when they did it it's it's problematic. i'm not sure we're ever going to win but i still hear that on the record for the possible ok gary hold on the reason for that

steve is that the reason for that is that when when the united states supported the popular protests against the mubarak regime it wasn't a democratically elected government example it just wasn't and that's a fairly big difference now what do you think the by the way the united states was very slow to support the pillar uprising against mubarak as well just to make make it clear. what do you think of the future of islamic parties in the region when it comes to elections now. i think. the media and the long run that it's the army groups and our board was that in in tunisia in libya in egypt in yemen or in syria they are going backward and not forward because they are not on that i'd side of history.

would development and the evolution of what is the consistent and history worldwide was that if you were. in the west in general in american continent in russia everywhere is has been going is that action of see and liberalism liberalism in meaning where design government does not interfere in the private life of individuals and people what that lead to what to drink or when to fast the what not to fast but what to do when to pray what not to pray etc this will incite many people to be against such kind of orientation ok liberalism but that's exactly what that's exactly what the military in egypt is going to do. for the time being anyway . is a military in egypt is basically seen by the population as a savior according to google it is that where thirty three million people on the

streets of egypt on google alerts on june thirtieth and that many thirty could not but listen to that could not take that into consideration and it was this sort of very reason that the united states and the west in general has played a low key in condemning all state or taking a. position road or yanni to be against. it is that so why is this ok i say again the first thirty seconds going to be allowed to on the program go ahead. well i think the point that i want to make here is simply that. the enemy of of change the kind of change that name is talking about and that clearly is is going to be needed no one run is anything that involves the use of force which invites of course destabilisation

violence and frustrates precisely the kind of change that we all want all right on that note thank you very much gentlemen many thanks today to my. yes in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember. this journey is not about seeing the world. it's a mission that i could to myself project to succeed if i stay in the same place all the time. i've been travelling around the world for twenty days so far in all

the time i haven't spent any money at all the main idea of the project is the deltas pains people's portraits and return for some goods. we have to get used to each other i think is a little disappointed about the bus because we're still spending a lot of money i mean if i spend it shouldn't worry about that right now i don't think so goes a great artist but i don't think it's economy and if you don't like the painting you just don't give anything. wealthy british style.

markets why not. going to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cars or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kaiser report on r g. i'm not used to the tundra to freedom i am my dear. in second grade i ran away from the boarding school with to my friends will be around to the tundra. the tundra is just a mosquito the crack and i don't know how people can live there to get in there no t.v.'s in the tent how can i send my child to a boarding school that i won't be able to sleep at night after that. they enter a life without knowledge of how to do basic things when there's no they don't get that in school. oh oh oh oh.

please. please. please. i.

coming up on r t n.s.a. whistleblower edward snowden is in no hurry to leave moscow meeting with human rights activists today snowden declare that he is seeking political asylum in russia more on this developing story up ahead. and the true colors of diplomacy may actually be green obama's nominee for ambassador of the u.k. happens to be his top twenty twelve campaign bundler is this an example of pay to play and what does it say about diplomatic positions more on this coming up. and a pig virus may soon cause rising pork prices multiple states have now experienced a virus that man that's most fatal prepare goods an in-depth look at this virus later in today's show.