that recovered you can go to youtube dot com backslash r t america and check out our web site r t v dot com slash usa you can also follow me on twitter at erin ade see you back here at eight. this journey is not about seeing the world. it's a mission that i could to myself the project won't succeed if i stay in the same place all the time. i've been travelling around the world for twenty days so far in all the time i haven't spent any money at all the main idea of the project is that the artist paints people's portraits in return for some kids. we have to get used to each other i think is a little disappointed about the bus i think because we're still spending a lot of money i mean if i spend it they shouldn't worry about that right now i don't think so you guys are great i says to you but i don't think it's

a trauma if you don't like the painting that you just didn't give anything. hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle what is the future of democracy in the arab middle east in the wake of the coup d'etat in egypt is this region condemned to a vicious cycle of uprisings and brutal suppression what about the claim islam and

democracy are incompatible and does the west really have an interest in seeing the people of the middle east free to decide their own destinies. cross-talk the future of democracy in the middle east i'm joined by stephen bucci in washington he is director of the allison center for foreign policy studies at the heritage foundation also in washington we have gareth porter he's an investigative journalist and author of the upcoming book manufactured crisis the untold story of iran's nuclear scare and in beirut we cross to solemn he is a professor of international affairs and diplomacy are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want my very much encourage it steven if i go to you first in the wake of the coup in egypt what is the future of democracy in the region i think democracy still has a great chance in the middle east democracy and the transition to it does not

happen overnight in anyone's country and to think it was going to go without any hiccups in all of these different countries was a bit naive so i'm very optimistic for the future but stephen it was you know it was unconstitutional and he was removed from power we don't know what's going to happen to him he hasn't been charged with a crime but he's being held i mean this is a lot more complicated than just unfortunate this time around. well i agree and in egypt you know the jury is still out. we don't know where the military is going to take the new government and what the people in egypt are going to do so we're not. quite ready to bless them and say everything is fine by any means but the fact that they turned back mr morsi is efforts that we're moving away from democracy in the military sided with the people of egypt does not necessarily mean that they're condemned to to a cycle of violence and repression again ok name if i go to you and they would be

the united states of siding with the military they continue to get their aid at least so far. focused on. july first second third of. july sudden and they might get states was hesitant to. take a position on. in mishit until yesterday the spokeswoman of the state department came forward and. condemned the. regime of president morsi making clear indications that they might be the state is a supporter of the military coup and then you've got a small faction in egypt. what about the ten days for the united states state department and the white house that make up their mind on on what kind of

policies they're going to do for the in egypt finally they said that on against islamic does that hurt and in support of course of action which is that military would have the main say. of egypt. coming over or you can the military bring democracy to egypt can military bring democracy to the middle east. well it's theoretically possible someplace that some time that that. it happened but certainly that's not very likely in egypt and you can put me down as a a skeptic with regard to the rhetoric of democracy and the arab spring with regard to u.s. and western policy the problem that i see is that that has really been a cover for the the exertion of u.s. policy the interests of u.s. policy in egypt and elsewhere in the region and of the case of egypt this is

nowhere better illustrated than the the term that i've been hearing in washington the last few days coups volution the idea that you know the the effort to portray what happened in the egyptian military takeover as somehow a revolution rather than a coup d'etat and the reality of course is that that this is indeed the reassertion of the military's power and influence in gyptian society and their effort to guide that society in a direction that is going to preserve the military's interests including its very large control over parts of the egyptian economy so i mean this is to me a perfect illustration of the problems that go along with presenting the politics in the middle east in terms of some sort of march toward democracy

this is really you know this is covering up the fundamental issues and problems that are primary in the region and it's not just you know the egyptian military it's elsewhere in the region you have the sunni versus shia as the primary problem and western interest in continuing to maintain their own influence in the region as a third steven what do you think about that because. we hear that you know their support of the military but their support of civil society you know and that in the democratic process and there's a lot of contradictions there even people would say hypocrisy. well i think first of all you know garrets points are absolutely right it's a very very complex very convoluted situation it is not particularly black and white women like you and they will tell me somebody to watch him why can't they just say coup that's what it is why can't they just say if you give me

a chance i'll just point me to the. the the military sided with the people and thrown mubarak out and everybody applauded the for it they they got on the right side of history this time they sided with the people and they threw out morsi and everybody's upset and i can understand that the reason obama's administration is reluctant to use the word coup is because we have laws on the books here in the united states that as soon as you say it's a coup you have to cut off aid and right now as soon as they designated a coup theoretically we have to stop all aid we frankly would lose all influence over the situation there and i'm not sure that's necessarily wise i would disagree with gareth a little bit i think he's given united states policies a lot more credit for their influence on the situation and we have what the gyptian people did has nothing to do with what the united states wanted or didn't want and

i'm not even sure we have that much influence with the military over the last few months since mr morsi has been in power or our influence there has waned a great deal so while i agree it's very convoluted and i just i don't think the united states is calling the shots ok garrett jump in this is cross talk go ahead let me just respond to that very quickly you know the problem is that the united states government. the obama administration. really from the beginning was very clear that they were supporting what the egyptian military was doing they've been shucking and jiving ever since the beginning of this crisis and that's a good conservative i would think that that steve would would be saying yes it's time for this administration to follow the law rather than to hide behind this falshood. that this was somehow something other than a coup d'etat i mean that's simply not an acceptable way for the united states to

proceed. and it's really time for conservatives to get on board with the rule of law in this country rather than to support a democratic administration that is really not being honest with the american people named you want to jump in and respond to what we have heard here go ahead. when the united states could not overlook what has been taking place in egypt over the past ten eleven days since the june thirtieth there were on drone thirty s. in egypt some certainties three million people on the streets of various cities and towns all across egypt it is being said and it is through this is the biggest demo demonstration of popular group most nation probably in history this large number of people coming to speak against. morsi and. what it took only one year for the majority of egyptians to make

up their mind and be against the islamic brotherhood in egypt primarily because that islamic brotherhood has used the democracy to get to pa and once they were empowered they sought to. hijack the government system in their own way to their own ideology to their own dogma adopt miles and this city has a scared it of many egyptians including. a sunni muslim christian and as a whites the united states not bought the exact into consideration and it's a new. policy toward egypt that is the u.s. cannot. take any negative position toward of egyptian military because this was a slow throw off that stability in egypt for months and probably for years to come

and the u.s. . cannot afford to see instability become that he should first and egypt is that axis of the end up bored and the middle east this will cause a great deal to be very valuable and let's see let's go ahead go can i add up or let us go ahead jump in because. your dad played a very important role and it should be some kind of model go ahead karen. but the idea is that that the egyptian military's takeover of power in the wake of a democratic democratically elected government is stabilizing the country simply doesn't pass the laugh test and paul pillar the former national intelligence officer of the united states for the middle east and south asia just wrote the other day that the killing of dozens of demonstrators by the egyptian

military is a defining moment in the history of that country in the political history of egypt they have in fact taken a very fateful step that's what's destabilizing egypt not the u.s. the possibility of the united states saying giving the truthful description of what happened and saying you know the laws been violated we can't continue our aid to egypt let's let's tell the truth here and not try to hide it all right gentlemen i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on democracy state darkie.

the worst you're going to say the only white house of the day the radio guy in colombo minestrone click. on what it was quote we're about to go good you've never seen anything like this i'm telling. playing well with. science technology innovation all the latest developments from around russia we've gone to the future or covered.

i would rather as questions for people in positions of power instead of speak on their behalf and that's why you can find my fellow larry king now right here on r.t. question more. recently . as. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing the future of democracy in the middle east. ok stephen i go back to you in

a way in washington i mean how would other islamic groups now see democracy in the region because they'll say you know these guys they don't play by the rules why should we be part of this process you know it's that this is a defining moment in that respect go ahead. but first of all just to respond to carrots earlier comment i do agree with them absent a change in u.s. law this was a coup d'etat i think the president they have to cut off aid in the last congress take some steps to come up with an exception to deal with this frankly kind of new on situation which nine pointed out it wasn't just the military who did this there were thirty one million people in the streets trying to change the system because. the they popped out of the. what was true democracy and started moving in a wrong direction you don't get a pass just because you've been elected to then do whatever you darn well please

with the country and i think the egyptian people showed that that's not what they want to do gareth pass what about the rule of law that is you know you've got to go ahead yeah the rule of law is still the single biggest problem here and you know the morsi government whatever its faults had not cancelled democratic elections in in egypt you know the rhetoric of the united states has always been well you know people who are dissatisfied with the situation should use the vote to make change and that was still possible in egypt and to have the military takeover and use force in this situation clearly is not the answer it's not going to help it was a huge mistake it was a huge mistake to rely on force rather than to wait until the next election to unseat the morsy government that's what should have happened and just let me add that you know we have

a situation in egypt as we do in turkey and in iran where you have societies that are deeply divided between islamic populations who who feel strongly that the government should reflect their islamic character and the people who believe that it should not people who are essentially you know non religious in their political views and in that situation it's much more important than it is otherwise to to rely on the vote rather than to rely on violence and takeovers by street protesters to to decide how to deal with this very very difficult historical problem name in beirut what about well the muslim brotherhood below. back into politics should they be. let me point out that more than one year ago when some of them brotherhood one. presidential election in egypt

was smores on slightly more than fifty percent of the vote i said then that the islamist will be their own very first enemies they will shoot some senses in the foot sooner or later but why because they would seek to monopolize the power and drives. the country and it took only one year for a largely a growing number of. to realize that and to turn against some of them as us that's what had happened in nigeria in one nine hundred ninety one ninety two when the islamic some tension from the ones that election and then within a short time the military and the populace started against them because they look cool would have been what you like i said i think fifty thousand people died remember the result unfortunately unfortunately this is a byproduct of geology and don't mind when i view all of you seek to do one up our

lives that all of you and seek to implemented and apply on the population without much diplomacy without much give and take as what's happening as we've seen with this president former president morsi this would be the final outcome or as expected consequences of that model see not only what i thought we were going to hear and i'm not a dire dog go ahead gary jump in go ahead. why not why not wait until the next election to voted out of office if that's the case and i agree with you that you know the morsi government you know basically did not. was not successful in winning the confidence of the popular. but the whole point of this exercise was this to wait until the next election why not do that naive that that one is that was until the next that's a good question my friend. that's a very good question and let me answer that is that reason is why we're not going

for the next election because that action and the act of the muslim brotherhood and not see himself as web so so to. incite i think. for instance in a town just outside of cairo about six hundred christian where viktor differ from their home houses and four or five of them. by some of them but also who support the base it on religious reasons i'm not that incident took place in which four or five shiite. put away to kill it on something that was on the phone and in. egypt and to see that not condones that did not take strong action of that so we should oppose that. conflagration. because the last ten days that continues to happen ok it continues to happen under the military rule right now

it's a fortunate that i was happy but from what i got there was it was ok steve i mean if i could let me just let me go to the the money go to stephen wanted to meet with muslims now may not participate in the democratic process in egypt and across the region that's worrisome isn't it. it is and i don't i think you're trying to make this a monolithic group ing when you say muslims i think there's going to be a whale of a lot of gyptian who will participate in will be a little more circumspect about voting for somebody like mr morsi who does have a lot of baggage who does have a history of extremism and you know i hope and i think all all men of and women of goodwill hope that egypt moves to. an election as quickly as possible gets the military at a power and puts it back in the hands of the civilians but i think the egyptian people the year that has referred to have learned a lot about the process that one election does not

a democracy make you can have the election but well there are a lot of elections but that's what i do on every single one of them ok. gareth what do you think about this the if you know go ahead you know of the point i would add to what steve has just said is that you know a military coup does not democracy make either you know. the grand fundamental point i think that we're looking at straight in the face right now steve you want to reply to that. it's not going to help i agree completely word we're not we're not thrilled that the military did this but the military good didn't just dream it up on their own in and started from scratch they did it in response to millions of egyptians in the street as they did before when everybody thought it was a great idea so it's we've got to make sure that we're consistent and i agree with gareth the united states government must be consistent with its own laws and its

own principles but we we as commentators need to be consistent to that last time it was fine for the military to intervene on the side of the people and this time when they did it it's it's problematic. i'm not sure we're ever going to win but i can hear it on the record for the possible ok gary hold on the reason for that steve is that the reason for that is that when when the united states supported the popular protests against the mubarak regime it wasn't a democratically elected government example it just wasn't that's a fairly big difference now what do you think the by the way the united states was very slow to support the pillar uprising against mubarak as well just to make make it clear. what do you think of the future of islamic parties in the region when it comes to elections now. i think. the media and is

along with the islamic groups and our board was that in in tunisia in libya in egypt in yemen or in syria they are going backward and not forward because they are not on that island side of history . development and the evolution of what is the consistent and history worldwide. in the west in general in american continent in russia everywhere is has been going in that direction of see and liberalism liberalism in meaning where design government does not interfere in the private life of an individual and people what to eat or what to drink or when to fast the what not to fast but what to do when to pray what not to pray etc this will incite many people to be against such kind of orientation ok liberalism has no name that

is but that's the exact quote about it that's exactly what the military in egypt is going to do. for the time being anyway. isn't military in egypt is basically seen by the population as a savior according to google it is that where thirty three million people on the streets of egypt on google earth on june thirtieth and that many thirty could not but listen to that could not take that into consideration and it was this sort of very reason that is what i think the states and the west in general has played a low key in condemning all stand or taking a. position road or yanni to be against. it is that so why is this ok john mayer garrett's offense thirty seconds could it be the last word in the program go ahead gareth. well i think that

the point that i want to make here is simply that the enemy of of change the kind of change that naive is talking about and that clearly is is going to be needed no long run is anything that involves the use of force which invites of course destabilisation violence and frustrates precisely the kind of change that we all want all right on that note thank you very much gentlemen many thanks to my guests in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. this one. is a. this

journey is not about seeing the world. it's a mission that i could to myself the project to succeed if i stay in the same place all the time. i've been travelling around the world for twenty days so far in all the time i haven't spent any money at all the main idea of the project because of the artist paints people's portraits in return for some kids. we have to get used to each other i think is a little disappointed about the bus a failure because we're still spending a lot of money i mean if i spend it he shouldn't worry about that right now i don't think so goes a great artist but i don't think he's a con man and if you don't like the painting you just don't give anything.

wealthy british style. that's not on. my. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with max cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kaiser report on r g let me let me i want to know would not let me ask you a question from. here on this network is what we're having a debate we have our knives out. to do is this right that's a bad thing mary gearin a situation will be an ideal way to talk about the name and.

oh i. do live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food because you know how. i mean. i know i'm sitting seems really really messed up. and we're all very so personally apologize and. worse you're going to. find out sort of a. radio guy in fort lauderdale minutes from a cricket. club or a politician because you've never seen anything like that i'm selling. just say. hey guys i'm out in martin and welcome breaking the set surely if you've been watching the corporate news this is your.