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alone welcome across town for all things considered on peter lavelle peace process what peace process the palestinians have suffered over four decades of illegal israeli occupation and over twenty years of the so-called american sponsored to go she would have gotten them precious little why are obama and netanyahu in abbas interested in this drill again does it have anything to do with peace or are there other agendas in play. crosstown palestine and israel i'm joined by omar are in washington he's a middle east analyst and in new york we cross to fred he's a professor emeritus of government at ben gurion university or a gentleman in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it omar fine go to you first i mean kerry has a new initiative after twenty years there's another initiative in your mind is it

passed the laugh test. you know one of the definitions of the word insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result we've been down this route this road for twenty years now and it's the exact same script all over again only this time with actually worse players the coalition government in israel right now is far more recalcitrant and farther to the right that it's far less able and willing to work on any kind of meaningful peace process you have the netanyahu government out of hand rejecting the idea that the talks can be based on the nine hundred sixty seven borders settlements out of the question jerusalem is out of the question directly just are out of the question and unless there is going to be a structural shift in american policy so that policy actually are like the american positions and the us is willing to put any kind of meaningful pressure on israel which is nowhere in sight then this is obviously going to lead to the same dead end that it has led to for the past couple of decades ok fred so it's

a fool's errand kerry. go ahead let me just say let me just make one comment about the way the whole program was introduced you might keep in mind that israel occupied the west bank in the gaza strip as a consequence of the one nine hundred sixty seven war which i don't believe israel began it did begin it officially but it was basically surrounded by egypt and syria who were about to attack and they committed acts of war against israel the other point about american sponsored talks some of the most successful talks in the middle east was sponsored by the americans for example peace between egypt and israel i would keep in mind in terms of what omar said almost said excuse me you know we had a right wing government that the beg and beg was a man who didn't want to make peace didn't want to give back any territory in the end they made peace with egypt gave them back every square inch of egyptian territory it's positive to have an attorney out who was prime minister of israel he's a right wing he's an extremist but he's someone the controls his government controls

the country have the support of the people fifty five percent of the israeli population supports peace talk. arcs which knit in the hours indicated he's willing to go to so i think it's very very positive not negative we're rather than fighting shooting bombing killing civilians they're willing to sit down and talk i think that's a very positive move whether it will be the same result as all these on the talks only time will tell but i think it's a very positive step and i i give the united states government credit ok omar you didn't look like you're agreeing go ahead yeah there are a couple of points i mean just to start with the sixty seven war i mean there's absolutely no question that israel is the one that started that war and even if you want to make the preemptive strike that they needed to essentially accept preemption even though there are many israeli generals and intelligence people who dispute the extent of the threat that israel is facing many of the speculated that it was not a real threat let's just grant for the sake of argument that israel needed to act

in a preemptive way in order to hold off a potential egyptian attack still international law states clearly that even if you endorse the war you still cannot hold on to the territories that you occupy through war the united nations charter is very clear about this mountain of human evolution is followed saying that israel had to withdraw from the occupied territories and israel refused to withdraw now you bring up the peace with egypt now this is actually very interesting important that peace with egypt happened specifically because israel felt compelled to leave all egyptian territory in exchange for peace and there is no pressure right now that israel's feeling to leave all of the palestinian territories in exchange for peace with the palestinians and that's the quintessential problem here until there is any kind of and also there's going to be a stretcher make to go and the other one is there's not any territory this is not going to go down ok fred go ahead fred ok no no i'm. ok here's where israel gave back everything to egypt but egypt was willing to recognize israel.

recognize israel send them bass's exchange and the state of war and everything you know just how it's not yours don't have a say how can they do that if they don't have a state fred i mean really but they can they have the they have a state in the making they have leadership they can make whatever agreements they want to now the point that or the one thing they are just like to state about international law or this international law which governs israel israel tried to tries to what here has all my rever heard of the the tomb conference following the one nine hundred sixty seven war all the arab the arab league including palestinian representatives made it clear to the israels no negotiations nothing no peace no negotiations it was all a no no no so one might understand why the israelis weren't willing to give it back now as to israel being threatened annoyed someone by the name of god. nasir the former president of egypt very very friendly with the soviet union which existed at

that time he made it clear we sending a hundred fifty thousand troops into sinai to liberate palestine ok so if you get one hundred fifty thousand troops on your border it might make sense to turn our channel and then just i'd like to stay with the current initiative the kerry initiative a go go ahead omar let's i don't really know we cannot get into history for hours and hours and hours go ahead omar. ok i mean that's the thing it's very convenient to go back to the declaration but right now we're actually talking about the current situation in two thousand and two the entire arab league included offered the arab peace initiative to israel in which israel would get full normalization of relations with the entire arab world in exchange for ending its occupation of the palestinian territories essentially by simply abiding by international law so i know it's very convenient to go back to different parts of history where there are different conditions for what peace would actually require but since the beginning

of the peace process in the one nine hundred ninety s. and more explicitly with the entire region through the arab peace initiative it's very clear that israel can get a comprehensive peace agreement with the region in exchange for ending the occupation and the fact that israel's not willing to do that right now is what leads to people trying to pull all kinds of cards from the past of saying oh look what was said in ninety seven and what was said in nineteen forty eight and that's really not what i think you're going to talk about or you just said you just don't get the point now forget about history you just said to the talks that are good boto going on tuesday were a total waste of time now the mayor of qatar who just they just changed in office he just got to revive the saudi plan the plan that you are talking about that's probably behind the scenes something that's going to be discussed next tuesday you don't know what your position really is on if you represent the palestinians or not it's a waste of time well if everything is a waste of time the why are you criticizing here's where oh go ahead omar the israelis see broncho long as a right it's going to go to the it's going to go ahead omar jump in. here's here's

the thing like we're talking about why this is a waste of time it is very clear i certainly do not speak for anyone besides myself i'm an independent analyst i have quite a point of view of my own or not represent any kind of organization or people or state or anything of that sort and here's the thing the reason why this is a waste of time is because we've seen this happen before we had the peace process in the one nine hundred ninety s. throughout the entire peace process israel's position was let's negotiate while on the. we're going to keep building settlements and taking over whatever parts of the palestinian territories that we want and that's precisely why the peace process failed and then you had another round same thing with the roadmap under president bush you had the idea that there was going to be a roadmap to a two state solution and israel disregarded the negotiations and kept building settlements on the ground and we've seen this over and over again so until israel is willing to show that it's actually interested in the least and ending the occupation of the palestinian territories these negotiations are obviously going to be meaningless i mean just listen to the neo government all the statements that

they're saying they want to come to the negotiations without precondition but they're not willing to talk about the sixty seven borders they're not willing to talk about settlements they're not willing to talk about refugees i think it would take really exceptional going to destroy something to put on the product over this process and then only as they are talking about refugees they got to they are talking about jerusalem they're talking about everything and the fact is we're going to the government it's a right wing government but it's you know it's the same thing you would beg and i'm sorry to bring up history begun could make peace no way but party member could have made peace with egypt you know to call what trial what israeli leader wants to make peace with the palestinians fred the current negotiated sippy lived in a who's made it very very clear the major threat to israel's future is the need to settle the palestinian issue in a very positive way to satisfy both sides and when the guy know how is the one positive and how is that hospital do you think. what i mean how is it possible that

some sixty four thousand dollar question i mean what is israel going to compromise on let israel and work on your minds on anything israel's going to israel here's europe yeah israel and for first of all today in israel the probably of least about one hundred one hundred fifty thousand refugees that have come back over the last twenty or thirty years although nothing has happened israel compromise on the territories is where will probably put i listen to my well i. was with michael i don't i don't forget who the person was but one of my right wing friends made it very very clear if israel wants to settle with the palestinians there's going to have to be a compromise on jerusalem bibi netanyahu has made it clear in various places many of the settlements are going to be given up here's where we're going to compromise i haven't i haven't heard any of these things are going to have to go ahead on our fair time omar yeah. that's the thing i think i think the myth that israel is willing to compromise that anything has to be busted immediately the entire idea of

the peace process i mean you have to keep in mind the huge palestinian compromise by engaging in the peace process and giving up any territorial claim to seventy percent of historic palestine meaning accepting israel proper and return israel is supposed to recognize the remaining twenty two percent of the occupied territories as palestinian now here's the interesting part the palestinian offer this huge compromise and then israel starts saying ok now we're willing to negotiate on the remaining twenty two percent that's not an israeli compromise international law mandates that israel has no legal right at all to the occupied palestinian territories so the only people who are being asked to compromise here on the palestinian split in the army was to give a proof of value by the territories when i don't know what right gentlemen i'm going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll go to fred and we'll continue our discussion on israel and palestine state without. reason.

look. here is mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call. a dollar. i'm sorry i'm just a guy who cares an awful lot but you sir are a fool you know what that is my self loathing all want to give us a defeat terrorism be a liberal and the christian. can securely slip out of the. you know the corporate media distracts us from what you and i should care about because there are profit driven industry that sells a sensationalistic garbage because it breaking news i'm not

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download. location to choose your language stream quality and enjoy your favorite. if you're away from your television just doesn't matter now with your mobile device you can watch on t.v. anytime anywhere. welcome back across all things are considered i'm peter lavelle reminder we're discussing the peace process between palestine and israel. ok fred if i can go back to you in new york is the united states is

a fair broker in this conflict after twenty years. that's an interesting question if you ask some of the israelis they would probably say that the united states is biased doesn't support its position anough i think you'd have to ask the pieties i'm not representing the state of israel here well my sense is not representing the palestinians but i think that one of the things that didn't come out that we haven't talked about and that is without a doubt and i agree with omar the united states probably has to pressure israel for this to work but in the other hand it's going to have to be a lot of pressure by the arab states on the palestinians also to budge to compromise etc i think that's one of the things that's been missing and that was missing before the arab states wouldn't pressure up i think that's one of the reasons for the failures following obama's talk in cairo none of the palestinians do none of the arab states to livid in terms of pressuring or trying to further the

talks they just sort of sat back did absolutely nothing like as to whether the united states can be an objective third party etc it's up to the parties whether they're willing to trust the united states ok omar i mean we have martin indyk he's going to be considered the special envoy we have samantha power with her comments to get israel on the united nations security council so i really wonder i guess this rhetorical affair broker. yeah absolutely not i mean you have a structural problem and then you have the individual players like you mentioned you know martin indyk his association with the israel lobby is pretty clear but more structurally i mean the united states is supporting one side with obscene levels of military aid and diplomatic support vetoing countless u.n. resolutions that are critical of israel trying to keep israel from being held accountable for its actions so for a player that is clearly backing one side overwhelmingly to be trying to negotiate

you know trying to mediate these kind of negotiations obviously there's going to be a structural problem there the only problem of course is that nobody else is willing to step up and fulfill the void that the u.s. is clearly leaving i mean i think the united states is becoming less and less relevant because its approach is entirely based on a goshi a sense but there's nobody else that's really stepping in to fill that void. the problem i think you know so the so the e.u. for example i think the steps that they just took against settlements are a step in the right direction there don't go far enough but at least it gives you an idea of what it means to have consequences for israeli settlement expansion to continue what it means to back up your policy positions with actual policy actions and that's what we haven't seen from the united states is that rhetorically it takes an excellent position that says the settlements are illegitimate they must stop israel must end the occupation and so on but when it comes down to action they're never willing to place any kind of pressure to achieve those results beyond just rhetoric and that i think is the fundamental issue here that's why the united states cannot by the way it's mostly domestic american politics is the reason why

the united states is unable to place any pressure on israel and i think until we solve that problem here within the united states the u.s. cannot mediate these negotiations going i think we were ignoring a reality over the last ten years you have russia you have the e.u. you also have china you also have the arab states there are also involved in what's taking place i don't think the united states would have been able to get the both parties to come to washington this tuesday without the support of the arab league so other parties are involved the united states. it's not alone although they'll be sitting around the table with three representatives from the hell with anyone else from the israelis but i mean this is they're saying you agree that abbas is just a paid employee of the united states essentially i mean. what kind of hardy's are these you know the palestinian authority i mean they've they're basically at the mercy of the united states and in funding omar i mean is this all these really

jimmy carter years go ahead omar here's the thing here's the thing you have all these parties involved in what's happening but let's be clear about what is actually happening what is happening is israel is refusing to end the occupation of the palestinian territories but building more and more illegal settlements and the only party that is in any position to influence and pressure israel meaningfully is the united states so even though other countries are involved in the diplomatic process somehow they're not really in a position to influence the outcome because the one thing that is keeping any kind of legitimate peace process from moving forward is israeli intransigence and the only party that can shake israel office and intransigence is the united states trade let me ask you a question do you think if these negotiations don't work out you're going to end up with a one state solution because that's where it's going where you're asking me the question i don't think it's in israel's interest to have a one state solution i think the status quo today is a one state and i think the i think the what's been influencing that and yahoo would influence sharon is the idea of the israel be better off with

a two state solution rather than a one state solution that's easy said it's very hard to be done and again about israeli interim citizens let the palestinians recognize israel as a jewish state and you probably find a lot more flexibility within israel on the settlement issue and i think that want to comes to a settlement so the rajah said the market was going up it just never ends oh mark go ahead ahead go. that's the thing the palestinians recognize israel renounce territorial right to seventy percent of historic palestine and exchange for an israeli they don't they don't really know who it was we're going to need to raise state to be created i mean that's the thing you keep adding stuff the reason why it recognizing israel as a jewish state or the right to exist as a jewish state is problematic because it gives israel room to discriminate against its current palestinian citizens who live with within israel and kind of brushes aside ok but you know you really want to put up because there are controls about half the palestinians they recognize the state of israel will hamas as opposed to

what's going on since a political party it's not a state it's a political party it's not a state yet it's not to say that one of the if you're not going to trial and i think you are nuts omar you want to get on a hot day i think you're not tack on bring a child there are not here are for you and with omar first thing i'll go to fred omar all hum. how mosse was not in power until two thousand and six so the peace process failed long before today it is in the ninety's when israel only had the palestinian authority to negotiate with israel still refused to end the occupation so pretending hamas is the problem is obviously completely false and just misleading on the issue of the negotiations themselves and only ended by the way you telling me how it's a go back to history now you going back to history let's talk about today many of the palestinians are under the authority of hamas hamas doesn't remember recognize the state of israel so you aren't presenting this idea the palestinians recognizes religious jewish state yeah but how often has a boss by given hamas has not been invited to the negotiating table either it's

been elected but it's not invited to the negotiation table omar i mean it's not the it's not just that i mean here's what they should be at the meeting with if you want to take issue we don't have to tell. us wants to three months watching hamas go ahead omar we're talking about hamas not come on this should there's not rhetorical hang on a second hang on hang on just how much does not rhetorical recognize israel meanwhile israel is physically wiping palestine off the map i think one of these two things is a lot more meaningful than the other i mean criticizing one side a divided leadership on the palestinian side for not being in line with the position that would be most helpful to a peace process is different than israel actively destroying palestine and wiping it off the mouth i mean that's the distinction here and i think actions speak a lot louder than words and these are the kinds of actions that are most problematic so to have israel actively building settlements well how do you know i don't know what i know so largely because a lot of the meritorious are you talking about intransigence so why doesn't everyone just show up why doesn't everyone just compromise and try to work out the

problems i mean one of the problems the israelis are going to get suggestions legalism going to be longer and sam is a democracy that we should compromise because the other side is talking about the other side assad rather destruction of the state of israel that doesn't exist. that's utter that's utter i don't know i don't know one what plan. that that narrative makes sense but here on planet earth the entire arab league including the palestinians realisation of relations with israel in return for israel ending the occupation the idea that the problem is that the palestinians are the ones who are not willing to accept a two state solution is utterly and completely bizarre is just has no relation to reality. is that israel is it at the one hand a suggestion which has now you forgot you forgot not such as to end the occupation there were two or three things there there's also the refugee issue has to be resolved and jerusalem has to be resolved so those are three good issues three important as you observe the lower back the ninety's are on the way to history as you point territories and they will have to be dealt with but they haven't they

haven't recognized israel and putting that on the table that's why they're having talks international law talks time to get used to international law says he's to is under occupation omar a system is completely under israeli occupation there is a mountain of un resolutions including ones that the u.s. itself signed to that say israel has no right to use israel has no right to east jerusalem and again i mean just pretending that israel let's talk about the arab league also for a moment that peace agreement is on the table it's offering recognition in return for israel abiding by international law so to say that that's not enough that the arab side has to recognize israel and given for everything in the hopes that israel might one day stop building settlements i think that's the way i mean who are we kidding here that's not the way negotiations actually work what's on the table is an arrest that israel is the only source of the planet recognizing the state of israel in exchange for three things which is fine and it should be and that's going

to going to be one of the issues talking about what you think is a total waste of time i mean i don't understand your position here what's wrong with sitting down and talking beginning a process that might lead to there but i think the right the better there is nothing really nothing wrong with. that we could go on for there is absolutely no here and with sitting down and talking. yeah there is nothing wrong with sitting down and talking with there is something with sitting down and talking while one side is undermining everything that they're possibly talking about i mean this is like two sides sitting down to negotiate how to divide a pizza well one side is just eating away and not letting the other person eat and saying no no hang on why are you in a hurry let's just talk about this the reason why talking about this at a time when israel is systematically stealing palestinian land from the occupied territories i mean that's what we're talking about here and that's the reason why these negotiations are complete sham and nobody should take them seriously until israel stops building settlements i mean that's such a fundamental issue here that you can't be stealing more land when you're negotiating with drawing from occupy ok i'm going to tell you don't do that if your friend the art of the crime and borders fred you got the last word go ahead. ok i

think i'm a little surprised that my in my apartment they are i just don't understand that what his position is i think it's a very positive development that both sides who don't agree are coming together led by the united states and that almost everything will be on the table even though they're running i mean my opponent began by saying israel was were unwilling to talk about to recognize the palestinian state ought to recognize the six percent you don't want to read i have to be here we will run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guest in washington and in new york and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are keep see you next time and remember. the only. reason.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big show. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images those world has been seeing from the streets of canada. showing up for racial to rule the day.

if you live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food. you know how. many i mean. i know as i'm sitting in the same thing really messed up. in the very so personally apologized and. worse for listening to. my doubts of the day the radio guy in fort lauderdale minestrone something. that was close for a politician because you've never seen anything like this i'm told. and this is breaking the set it's now been.