time soon. when he's in just a half an hour with me in the team but do stay with us for the latest of peace that avails crosstalk that's coming up next after the break. while revolutions in the middle east sure get a great deal of coverage what you don't mix a lot of sense revolutions or exciting t.v. peaceful protests or nice but footage of moloch tough cocktails flying and crazed crowds of local middle easterners really grab attention so there's a logical next reason why some protest movements get a lot of coverage in the mainstream media well others kind of cult please forgive me for being conspiratorial but there is one revolution going down which does have all the exciting visuals of the arab spring but just doesn't get any of the mainstream coverage in fact unarmed people in this country recently stormed the

parliament trapping ministers and lawmakers with that they held them down for eight hours demanding the government reside until police with shields smash their way through creating a narrow corridor through which the officials could escape now that sounds like exciting and visual news but why did you hear about it all over the mainstream press that's because it didn't happen in libya or egypt or any other exotic country but in good old boag area right in the e.u. where u.s. and e.u. interests are best served by the status quo being maintained there is no need to hype up an intervention or kinetic action in bulgaria the only time you ever hear about the need for a crackdown in bulgaria is when a government there actually started working in bulgaria own interests and not the us use desires but that's just my opinion. right to see. first. and i think.

on our reporters. on. the scene. oh and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle americans have long seen latin and south america as part of their geo political backyard stereotypes die hard but new realities on the ground give reason to believe this continent is on the rise and determined to control its own fate regardless of

washington's unilateral perceived interests and given the trends should americans be learning spanish. to cross off the rise of latin and south america i'm joined by my guests in washington hundreds sanchez he is a research fellow at the council on hemispheric affairs and mark weisbrot he is co-director of the center for economic and policy research all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it how x. if i go to you first secretary of state kerry said recently that he treats lot in america and south america as america's backyard what is what is the kind of disconnect is that tell you about north america and south america today. let me rephrase that b.s. the obama when he was elected the first time around there was a lot of hope that he was no bring to bring a new kind of dog or how to do it like in america spartan ops are equals

fortunately this wasn't the case. they were obama the obama presidency they were actually brought up as some kind of dog treen like j.f.k. had done of the land for progress or. good neighbor policy so even to have been some interest in cuba or some treaties with colombia panama brasil the usual suspects really but obama. never had some kind of a concrete ideology or be shown a how to do little america fortunately going to alex i mean why is the case because of the wars in the middle east i mean just that the administration had too much on its plate is that the reasoning are things we were thank you had you had the war in iraq and afghanistan you had the us economy obama also trying to reset reset a if you were so famously called the british of the russia so i think america was not a best of. the second level of importance you are not

a priority for for the youth of any three k. let me turn to you lou we're going to mark here i mean maybe that's not a bad idea considering the american history with south america maybe was best to leave them alone well i think that true that is no doubt the region benefited from some of the tension that unfortunately the people of iraq in the region suffered from a lot but it did take the us a little bit away from from latin america but not enough i mean you still had the two thousand and two short lived coup in venezuela against a democratically elected government there which the u.s. was involved in. and you had in two thousand and nine the u.s. government. the obama administration this time supported and did a lot to support. the coup the military coup against the democratically elected

government there the they were involved in trying to support the coup government in to legitimize it they of course also if you count the caribbean here they also in broad daylight overthrew the government in this was the bush administration in. two thousand and four in haiti and so they are going after targets of opportunity and have been really hostile to most all of the left governments there i think they have a strategy and a vision the vision is rolled back and they want to go back to the days which was not that long ago i mean fifteen years ago even they had enormous influence in the region they had governments that aligned mostly with their foreign policy and there's been a vast change and they want to roll that back they haven't accepted it you know you know when nixon went to china twenty three years after the chinese revolution it

was a recognition that this change was going to stay and they haven't made anything it's ironic because i mean these are democratic governments examining they haven't recognized that these changes are permanent alex go ahead jump in because the united states doesn't recognize the democratic outcomes on the continent if they don't like them. i would agree that short probably the u.s. will probably hand in both main aim. to me hate of the for now the point that will help much to want to blame the us for every single coup or call for government to happen in america i mean you can talk all day one hundred hours today was pretty low was over from last year last june they believe to from twelve impart a white do want to blame the u.s. also for that one i think i do believe that the u.s. still has to be your yes you know in america. i think we need to promote and promote its influence and its national interest but we have gone along for we are far away from the one who can mean only as alex marx naruse said martin said the

americans won't roll back on the continent how do you respond to that. i think that the obama's vision is mostly ambivalent or obama finishes a bishop for the team america and the u.s. trying to just you know make up a as they go along i don't think that the are trying to roll back you mean to trying to go back to the dates of the one thousand seventy thousand one hundred sixty if we've you know all the all the course and what the molly fifty four and all those terrible examples all we see i think were the were exaggerating things there is that more isolated cases than anything else ok mark the exception to the rule what do you think you know i think they just can't get away with what they i mean they did try the coon in venezuela and they were involved in the i mean there was we have the evidence from the state department's own documents saying that they paid the people who were involved in the organizations received money and training from you know from the u.s. government who were involved in the coup and then they got on television and tried

to convince the world that it wasn't a coup at all even though the cia documents to show that they knew in advance it was a coup so they were lying to the world to try and help this coup succeed there's a whole body of evidence which the press here doesn't discuss but it's a matter of public record showing that they were actually involved in the coup itself so they have targets of opportunity they go after them on their orders they were able to get rid of eighty they were able to get rid of part of why i would also add to that the you know have evidence which was. uncovered by the tell you of ya know investigative journalist in brazil who showed that they also paid the people who are involved in that so-called parliamentary coup and part of why last year and then they manipulated the oas as they have done in they did in the honduran case to also support the outcome so this is what they do

they can't get rid of the other governments but they would if they could and they are hoping that you know. since these are democratic governments they have to face elections they're hoping that you know some will lose like the left left of center government in chile last few years ago no michel botulin will probably come back but they're trying to they want to get real right they're still good point mark let's go let's go back to alex alex you want to jump in go ahead make my point is that it works in the we were in a group human soil i'm not in mind i agree if you were in haiti as well but the one thing the one i like blame the u.s. consul in saying well there was a coup in part of why or you know if we do more of the forefront to farson improve so we always ultimately think or the u.s. was behind this just like you want to was invoking all the school scene in one thousand nine hundred seventy s. or even to say well it happened because the government in those countries was

cardinal some very bad put in positions and that was that a public see a sense and they wanted to over for the government i'm not saying that the u.s. is free of sin i'm not saying that but it seems to work seem to want to blame the u.s. every single time and say oh you're the last over from him but a why and he was only the u.s.'s fault it's not because there would be anything wrong i think president he's time a president that's my that's my my concern here. you know mark i mean he it has the reach and done well in spite of the united states because over the last ten years we've seen millions and millions of people leave poverty we see a lot of economic growth we see growth the middle classes i mean the continent overall is doing quite well you know that's right and i think a good part of that is a result of these changes you know in the past people weren't able to vote for a social democratic governments generally because the u.s. did. seems to acknowledge intervene and get rid of

these kinds of governments well as i said they're still trying to do it in a by the way i'm not saying that the united states. was the only actor in the schools or any it that they wouldn't of. the that the people within these countries who carried them out the military for example in venezuela in two thousand to one to try to just the united states was active in helping and that's what i'm that's all i'm saying and so that it's an indication of their policy they want to get rid of these governments by any means necessary but in terms of the improvements yeah you can go through country by country and they've never done this well for at least twenty twenty to thirty years you know you have poverty for the region just between two thousand and three and two thousand and nine because there's a lag if you want data for all the countries has dropped from forty two to twenty seven percent where it was the poverty rate was stuck around the forty's for for two decades before two thousand and three so you have you know that in the ghetto

you have growth you can look at unemployment is at a record low in ecuador and brazil poverty was reduced much more than it was regionally and any quality too in venezuela was reduced by half and these are governments that the united states doesn't like very much mark these are governments the united states isn't like very much. you know that's right and again i mean it is an indication what we said at the beginning that to the extent that the region has you know achieved this historical second independence it's called it has it has drawn enormous benefits ok alex you want a last word before going to go to the break go ahead. back to senator kerry's. statement that no life in america still. america's backyard i mean a sign that it's both regions like new york in the caribbean are not is because of

the plethora of. words. that can emerge and occur again we're talking all russia we're talking about china taiwan began uni has a free trade agreement with we've been to america and i'm going to germany for that short break we'll continue our line of argument after a short break we'll continue our discussion on latin america and south america stay with r.t. . you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that

everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm charming welcome to the big picture. it.

live. and. cut. cut cut. cut . welcome back to crossfire were all things considered and peter lavelle to mind you

were discussing the rise of latin in south america. ok alex if i go to you one of the interesting things that we've seen over the last ten years or so is foreign investment into the region and china is getting increased twenty fold no wonder a lot of these governments feel they don't have to listen to the united states very much anymore because the money is coming from different sources. definitely like i was saying before the break i think like an american the caribbean let's not forget about that region is sort of open for business at the americas birth china for example is very interested in buying soybeans from argentina from brazil then you have a partner just summit in tokyo we have this interim working nations seat go to him promote trade between these two. and him to america the e.u. also has a three tier agreement it's trying to ratify working for america you have transpacific

partnership also that includes the u.s. you have all these kind of initiatives from different regions across the world because you want to be embarrassed to be more diplomatically involved in that in america and the caribbean as well well mark i mean it but that's all you know china invest without a lot of strings attached right i mean it doesn't care what governments in power it doesn't particularly care what political flavoring the government has it just wants to do business. you know that's right and this is one of the things i mean if we want to describe this historic change in the region where the country is now more into the region is now more independent of the united states especially south america than europe is for example which was never true in the past one of the reasons for this change is that they don't have to take they're not taking policy economic policy dictates from washington as they often did during that period prior to the two thousand and the most important avenue of influence of the united

states in latin america and developing countries generally over the last thirty to forty years has been the international monetary fund yeah exactly and that power broke down in developing countries and in latin america during the last decade and a half and that was a huge change and then of course as you've already mentioned the availability of investment and demand for exports also growing demand for exports from other sources including china the fastest growing economy and the large now the largest economy by the best measures the largest economy in the world. also had a had an impact and you know this came after the washington's policies had failed miserably for two decades from one thousand nine hundred eighty to two thousand income per person in the region grew by only five point seven

percent over the whole twenty years now you compare that to ninety two percent in the one nine hundred sixty to nine hundred eighty period the prior two decades and you can see why you had these left governments winning one after another in venezuela argentina bolivia brazil ecuador go i podder why nicaragua this is what happened and it was a result of an unprecedented economic failure the i.m.f. policies alex you want to jump in go ahead. i mean something else that when it comes to china he just wants resources. for the chinese government the country is a wash in their pro washing the for example china has become a huge customer of an a sort of an oil. big buyer but for example the chinese president well through

surgery in mexico because china also wants to be by mexican or in the mexican government's very. close ally of the us and the additional reason why we have mission is so far and there is no reason why the chinese very much involved in latin america and the caribbean it's also because of taiwan a lot of the countries the next one as a sovereign nation are in central america and they are also in the caribbean as well so china is throwing to us what we're calling dollar the poor must be. given loans given investments giving. best means giving out credit create lines to these small nations so that it that they will decide to switch between recognizing taiwan to switch into. china one of the biggest example has been but the bahamas where the chinese government is building is huge. it's supposed to have four hotels a golf club a golf core conference center i suppose the cost around four billion dollars well

it looks like a child as long as i clear with being the chinese doing what the united states traditionally the dollar diplomacy you know mark you know they recognizing cuba i mean we couldn't have been something obama could have done to change things the american approach to the continent i mean that would have been a good symbol it least. you know it's interesting question i mean first. you know all of the left governments in latin america they thought that this was when obama was elected they thought this would be the first step yeah because they see this embargo is just completely ridiculous which of course it is. and you know it's it's just a relic of this this bygone era as far as they're concerned with this this shows or this is another indication of how completely locked in the cold war mentality our government remains and you know obama himself you know he might have different

views but it doesn't really have any practical significance what he thinks because he's not willing to sacrifice two dollars of political capital to change anything when he tried even to i'm sorry you know he he when he would he try to even to to point ambassador to venezuela in two thousand and ten. you know right wing staffers in congress senator lugar's office collaborating with the state department they killed it and what did he do he didn't fight and they still haven't asked it or so that's the kind of thing we're dealing with here or even at the white mark you think you could even say the war on how to share that i mean are you going to say there aren't drugs as well would be obama's continuing that alex go ahead respond to that go ahead alex. i have to i have to agree i have to think with my colleague here sort of i will say that this much of the when obama was first

elected they're full of hope that they believe that a detention center in one time will be closed none of those things that happened i will grant you that but to think obama hasn't done anything to to improve u.s. relations that's your thought that's that's incorrect obama has lived there i believe he was in two thousand and eleven some of the pro restrictions so people can fly to. the sending off for me consists well on the last. question talks between the u.s. and cuban officials so these are small steps small big stories can both deal more see him play out agree to that but there are small steps forward their progress that obama has been able to carry out and he should be not sure said that good like you said alex he has no vision here mark talk about the war on drugs i mean if i just want to say that i didn't say i didn't say that he didn't do anything on cuba ok so yeah i recognize that he took

a small step what i said is that he's not willing to sacrifice any political capital in order to lift the embargo so i just want to make that cocaine i'm going to talk about the war on drugs a lot of people say that's a trojan horse for the united states in latin and south america it's more political than anything else yeah they obviously use it i mean this is a use it to build their relationships with police and militaries and to militarize the region and they are expanding their military presence for example in duress and that's one of the reasons i think they helped overthrow the. government in two thousand and nine was to keep their military the big military base they have and expand smaller ones there and they tried it under the obama administration to expand their military presence in colombia as well and all of this is done or most of it is done under the pretext of the war on drugs so yeah i think that's a major incentive for them not to adopt and to oppose reasonable more reasonable

policies including decriminalization and other things that would would help end the violence there so they've been a major that's another horrible failure with with terrible life and consequences there and it is related to their strategy for trying to again reassess . their control over region they have really lost control over in the last fifteen years alex you and i responded that head the us. the us government were it's republican or democrat poor millions billions of dollars probably by now because the war on terror. colombia be a day to marry initiative as well the next goal i agree of doesn't it but when it comes to saying that the u.s. is starting to expand more of its influence is military presence not in america i mean that's more our global and more polemic i think certainly

a day when month that was close in ecuador to be because of a record i wanted to in the us not need to scramble and try to find new additional place where you can simply put some of its troops calm i was and was no option but in that there haven't been that major major operations if anything because of the budget of south korea the u.s. southern command me too but i'm starting just like in america and the caribbean has actually decreased it's in need of initiatives to keep relations with latin america because the symbolism of the money to deploy the troops to the region as much as you know the us had during the one nine hundred seventy s. and eighty's. give you the last word go ahead. well i gave two specific examples of their attempts and partly successful they failed in colombia but they did attempt to expand their military presence washington attempted to expand its military presence and colombia and they did extend our

expanding their military presence in on duracell right gentlemen i think it is time we just referenced the surface i'm afraid here many thanks to my guest today in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember cross talk rules. sigrid lumber tour. was able to build the most sophisticated robots which will unfortunately doesn't give a darn about anything tim's mission to teach creation why it should care about humans. this is why you should care watch only.

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