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is this story. playing out in real life. oh and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle americans have long seen latin and south america as part of their geo political backyard stereotypes die hard but new realities on the ground give reason to believe this continent is on the rise and determined to control its own fate regardless of washington's unilateral perceived interests and given the trends should americans be learning spanish.

to cross off the rise of latin and south america i'm joined by my guests in washington. he is a research fellow at the council on hemispheric affairs and mark weisbrot he is co-director of the center for economic and policy research all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it alex if i go to you first secretary of state kerry said recently that he treats lot in america and south america as america's backyard what is what is the kind of disconnect does that tell you about north america and south america today. let me first say these the obama when he was elected the first time around there was a lot of hope that he was no bring to bring a new kind of dog or how to do it like in america a spartan equals a fortunately this wasn't the case. with obama the obama presidency they were

actually brought up some kind of dog treen like j.f.k. had dogged alliance for progress or. good neighbor policy so going to have been some interest in cuba some treaties with colombia panama brasil the usual suspects really but obama. never had some kind of a concrete ideology or be shown a how to do little america. going alex i mean why is the case because of the wars in the middle east i mean just that the administration had too much on its plate is that the reasoning are things we were like you had because the war in iraq and afghanistan you had the us economy obama also trying to reset reset a he was so famously called the relation of the russia so i think america was not a best of second importance as a second level of importance he was not priority for for the u.s. administration k. let me turn to you live in a market i mean maybe that's not a bad idea considering the american history with south america maybe was best to

leave them alone. well i think that true that is no doubt the region benefited from some of the attention that unfortunately the people of iraq in that region suffered from a lot but it did take the us a little bit away from from latin america but not enough i mean you still had the two thousand and two short lived in venezuela against the democratically elected government there which the u.s. was involved in and you had in two thousand and nine the u.s. government the obama administration this time supported and did a lot to support. the coup the military coup against the democratically elected government there they they were involved in trying to support the coup government and to legitimize it they of course also if you count the

caribbean here they also in broad daylight overthrew the government in this was the bush administration in. two thousand and four in haiti and so they are going after targets of opportunity and have been really hostile to most all of the left governments there i think they have a strategy and a vision a vision is rolled back and they want to go back to the days which was not that long ago i mean fifteen years ago even they had enormous influence in the region they had governments that aligned mostly with their foreign policy and there's been a vast change and they want to roll that back they haven't accepted it and you know when nixon went to china twenty three years after the chinese revolution it was a recognition that this change was going to stay and they haven't made anything it's ironic because i mean these are democratic governments examining they haven't

recognized that these changes are. alex go ahead jump in because the united states doesn't recognize the democratic outcomes on the continent if they don't like them . i would agree that short probably the u.s. was probably hand in both mean even in business willing to listen to the hate and for now the point with how much do we want to blame the u.s. for every single coup or call for government to happen in america i mean you can talk all day one hundred hours today was pretty low was over from last year last june they believe two thousand and twelve in part oh i do want to blame the u.s. also for that one i certainly do believe that the u.s. still has a. you know in america i think we need to promote and promote its influence and if national interests but we have gone along what far we are far away from me here only as alex marquardt you said martin said that the americans one roll back on the continent how do you respond to that. i think that the obama's vision is mostly.

obama's vision for the beach and for the team america and the u.s. trying to yes no make up a as they go along i don't think that they are trying to roll back you mean to trying to go back to the dates of the nine hundred seventy thousand eight hundred sixty if we've you know all the all the course and what the molly fifty four and all those terrible examples all we see i think were the were exaggerating things there is a more isolated cases than than anything else ok mark the exception to the rule what do you think you know i think they just can't get away with what they i mean they did try the coon in venezuela and they were involved in the i mean there was we have the evidence from the state department's own documents saying that they paid the people who were involved in the organizations received money and training from you know from the u.s. government who were involved in the coup and then they got on television and tried to convince the world that it wasn't a coup at all even though the cia documents to show that they knew in advance it

was a coup so they were lying to the world to try and help this coup succeed there's a whole body of evidence which the press here doesn't discuss but it's a matter of public record showing that they were actually involved in the coup itself so they have targets of opportunity they go after them on their orders they were able to get rid of eighty they were able to get rid of part of why i would also add to that the you know have evidence which was. uncovered by natalia of yano investigative journalist in brazil who showed that they also paid the people who are involved in that so-called parliamentary koon part of why last year and then they manipulated the oas as they have done in they did in the honduran case to also support the outcome so this is what they do they can't get rid of the other governments but they would if they could and they're hoping that you know. since these are democratic governments they have to face elections they're hoping that

you know some will lose like the left left of center government in chile last few years ago no michel botulin will probably come back but they're trying to they want to get real right at their storage point mark let's go and go back to alex alex you want to jump in go ahead make my point is that the we when i grew human soil i'm not in ny and i agree if you were in haiti as well but the one thing the war and i blame the u.s. consul in saying well there was a coup in quite a while or you know if we do more of the forefront to fasten in peru so we always ultimately think or the u.s. was behind this just like he was he was invoking all the school scene in one thousand nine hundred seventy s. or going to say well it happened because the government in those countries was cardinal some very bad police in the sea sherm's and that was that eileen a public it's the offense and they wanted to over for the government i'm not saying

that the us is free of sin i'm not saying that but it seemed to work seem to want to blame the us every single time and saying oh yeah the law was over from him but a while and he was only the u.s.'s fault it's not because there would be anything wrong i think president he's time a president that's my that's my my concern here as well. you know mark me it has the reaching done well in spite of the united states because over the last ten years we've seen millions and millions of people leave poverty we see a lot of economic growth we see growth the middle classes i mean the continent overall is doing quite well you know that's right and i think a good part of that is a result of these changes you know in the past people weren't able to vote for social democratic governments generally because the u.s. did. seems to acknowledge intervene and get rid of these kinds of governments well as i said they're still trying to do it in a by the way i'm not saying that the united states. i was the only actor in the

school is there any it that they wouldn't of. the that the people within these countries who carried them out the military for example in venezuela in two thousand to one to try to just the united states was active in helping and that's what i'm that's all i'm saying and so that it's an indication of their policy they want to get rid of these governments by any means necessary but in terms of the improvements yeah you could go through country by country and they've never done this well for at least twenty twenty to thirty years you know you have poverty for the region just between two thousand and three and two thousand and nine because there's a lag if you want data for all the countries has dropped from forty two to twenty seven percent where it was the poverty rate was stuck around the forty's for for two decades before two thousand and three so you have you know that in the ghetto you have growth you can look at unemployment is at a record low in ecuador and brazil poverty was reduced much more than it was

regionally and any quality too in venezuela was reduced by half and these are governments that the united states doesn't like very much mark these are governments the united states isn't like very much. you know that's right and again the i mean it is an indication what we said at the beginning that to the extent that the region has you know achieved this historical second independence it's called it has it has drawn enormous benefits ok alex you wanted the last word before going to go to the break go ahead i think back to senator kerry's. statement that the left in america is still. america's backyard i mean a sign that it's both regions like new york in the caribbean are not is because of the plethora of three words. that can emerge and occur again we're talking all russia we're talking about china taiwan began you know has

a free trade agreement with within for america ok so i'm going to jump in after the short break we'll continue our line of argument after a short break we'll continue our discussion on latin america and south america stay with r.t. . leave . here is mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call a dog. i'm sorry i'm just

a guy who cares an awful lot about you sir are a fool. of yourself. not want to keep us safe the future is not the only ball the crystal ball because your beliefs about it's. going to slip are going to distract us from what you and i should care about because they're profit driven industry that sells a sensationalistic garbage he calls it breaking news i'm happy martin and we're going to break that it's. just some. more. explosions.

welcome back to crossfire were all things considered and peter lavelle to mind you were discussing the rise of latin and south america. ok alex a fine go to you one of the interesting things that we've seen over the last ten

years or so is foreign investment into the region and china is getting increased twenty fold no wonder a lot of these governments feel they don't have to listen to the united states very much anymore because the money is coming from different sources. definitely like i was saying before the break i think like in america and the caribbean let's not forget about that region is sort of open for business that in america is china for example is very interested in buying soybeans from argentina from brazil then you have a partner just summit in tokyo we have this interim merican nations seat go to him promote trade between these two. and then for america the e.u. also have the strength ratified we can throw america you have transpacific partnership also that includes the u.s. you have all these kind of initiatives from different regions across the world because you want to be embarrassed to be more diplomatically involved in that in america and the caribbean as well well mark i mean it but that's all you know china

invest without a lot of strings attached right i mean it doesn't care what governments in power it doesn't particularly care what political flavoring the government has it just wants to do business. you know that's right and this is one of the things i mean if we want to describe this historic change in the region where the country is now more into the region is now more independent of the united states especially south america than europe is for example which was never true in the past one of the reasons for this change is that they don't have to take they're not taking policy economic policy dictates from washington as they often did during the period prior to the two thousand. most important avenue of influence of the united states in latin america and developing countries generally over the last thirty to forty years has been the international monetary fund yeah exactly and that power broke

down in developing countries and in latin america during the last decade and a half and that was a huge change and then of course as you've already mentioned the availability of investment in demand for exports also growing demand for exports from other sources including china the fastest growing economy and the large now the largest economy by the best measures the largest economy in the world also had a had an impact and you know this came after the washington's policies had failed miserably for two decades from one nine hundred eighty to two thousand income per person in the region grew by only five point seven percent over the whole twenty years now you compare that to ninety two percent in the one nine hundred sixty to nine hundred eighty period the prior two decades and you can

see why you had these left governments winning one after another in venezuela argentina bolivia brazil ecuador of part of why nicaragua this is what happened and it was a result of an unprecedented economic failure of the i.m.f. policies alex you want to jump in go ahead. i just know at something else that when it comes to china he just wants resources. for the chinese government doesn't mean the country is washing their pro washing the for example china has become a huge customer of an a sort of oil. big buyer but for example the chinese president was through simply in mexico because china also wants to be by mexican or in the mexican government the very. close ally of the u.s. and the additional reason why we have mentioned so far and there is no reason why the chinese very much involved in latin america and the caribbean it's also because

of taiwan a lot of the countries the next one as a sovereign nation are in central america and they are also in the caribbean as well so china is trying to use what we're calling dollar of the poor must be. given loans giving investments giving. best means giving out credits create alliance to these small nations so that it that they will decide to switch between recognizing taiwan to switching to. china one of the biggest example has been but the bahamas where the chinese government is building these huge. tourist resort is supposed to have four hotels a goal of a golf core conference center i suppose the cost around four billion dollars well it looks like a child as long as i clear with being the chinese doing what the united states traditionally the dollar diplomacy you know mark you know they recognizing cuba i mean we couldn't have been something obama could have done to change things the

american approach to the continent i mean that would have been a good symbol it least. you know it's interesting question i mean first. you know all of the left governments in latin america they thought that this was when obama was elected they thought this would be the first step here because they see this embargo is just completely ridiculous which of course it is. and you know it's it's just a relic of this this bygone era as far as they're concerned with this this shows or this is another indication of how completely locked in the cold war mentality our government remains and you know obama himself you know he might have different views but it doesn't really have any practical significance what he thinks because he's not willing to sacrifice two dollars of political capital to change anything

when he tried even to i'm sorry you know he when he when he try to even to to point ambassador to venezuela in two thousand and ten. you know right wing staffers in congress senator lugar's office collaborating with the state department they killed it and what did he do he didn't fight and they still haven't asked or so that's the kind of thing we're dealing with here or even at the white mark you think you could even say the war on terror are sure that i mean are you going to say that iraq drugs as well would be obama's continuing that alex go ahead respond to that go ahead alex. i have to i have to agree i have to think with my colleague here sort of i will say this much of the when obama was first elected the floor hold that belief that that a detention center in one time would be closed none of those things that happened i will grant you that but i think obama hasn't done anything to improve u.s. relations that's your thought that's that's incorrect obama has lived there believe

in divorce and eleven some of the pro restrictions so people can fly to. the sending off for me consists well on the last mile i say without question talks between the u.s. and cuban officials so these are small steps small big stories. most see him play out agree to that but there are small steps forward their progress with steps that obama has been able to carry out and he should be no he said that good like you said alex he has no vision here mark talk about the war on drugs i mean a complete utter i just want to say that i didn't say or i didn't say that he didn't do anything on cuba ok so yeah i recognize that he took a small step what i said is that he's not willing to sacrifice any political capital in order to lift the embargo so i just want to make that call came out going to talk about the war on drugs a lot of people say that's a trojan horse for the united states in latin and south america it's more political

than anything else yeah they obviously use it i mean this is a use it to build their relationships with police and militaries and to militarize the region and they are expanding their military presence for example in duress and that's one of the reasons i think they helped overthrow the. government in two thousand and nine was to keep their military the big military base they have in expand smaller ones there and they tried under the obama administration to expand their military presence in colombia as well and all this is done or most of it is done under the pretext of the war on drugs so yeah i think that's a major incentive for them not to adopt and to oppose reasonable more reasonable policies. including decriminalization and other things that would would help end the violence there so they've been a major that's another horrible failure with with terrible life and

consequences there and it is related to their strategy for trying to again reassess . their control over region they have really lost control over in the last fifteen years alex you want to respond to that head the us. the us government where it's republican or democrat poor millions billions of dollars probably by now because the war on terror. colombia be a day to marry initiative as well the next goal i agree of doesn't it but when it comes to saying that the u.s. is starting to expand more of its influence is military presence not in america i mean that's more our global and more polemic i think certainly a day when month that was close in ecuador to be because of course i wanted to in the us what need to scramble and try to find new edition a place where you can see people some of its troops can i was and was not. burdened

that there haven't been that major media operations if anything because of the budget of directions south korea the u.s. southern command me to but i'm starting just like in america and the caribbean has actually decreased it's in need of initiatives to keep relations with latin america because he simply doesn't have the money to deploy the troops to the region as much as you know the us had during the one nine hundred seventy s. and eighty's. give you last word go ahead. well i gave two specific examples of their. partly successful they failed in colombia but they did attempt to expand their military presence washington attempted to expand its military presence and colombia and they did it say are expanding their military presence and so right gentlemen i think that it's time we there stretched the surface i'm afraid many thanks to my guest today in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time and remember cross talk was.

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