after the first revelation of government spying by stoughton these promises of the change dot gov site were taken down if this is not just some odd coincidence and they consciously chose to hide obama's campaign promises that this is political cowardice at its worst and what is even worse is that they didn't think that this would get exposed almost immediately if you try to conduct some sort of medieval book burning to destroy information on the internet then you are only going to get burnt yourself but that's just my opinion. well with. science technology innovation all the developments from around russia we are going to the future are covered.

hello and welcome to sophie and co i'm sophie shevardnadze and today we're talking about government secrets and whether the public has the right. information society age and an atmosphere of conspiracy when governments declare the leak everything secret. yet deep into private lives. opposing it publishing the facts the concern everybody by standing up for what you believe democracy is blowing the whistle could have you labeled a patriot or a traitor is keeping a dangerous secret the new patriotism can a security state with hearts and minds the cia chief is in the front snowden there is sounds to escape the system. edward snowden has been labeled

a traitor at home but polls reveal many americans some forty percent believe he should not be persecuted there's a real global debate going over whether snowden is actually a hero to discuss that i'm joined by a man who ran the national security agency former n.s.a. and cia director for star general michael hayden it's really great to have you on our show tonight thank you very much so in your opinion is snowden a hero or a traitor. well he's certainly not a hero and i don't think he meets the legal definition of being a traitor according to our constitution but he certainly has done a very very bad thing and i think he's also a very troubled young man so perhaps truth lies somewhere. in between the two extremes you pointed out what do you think it could be a chinese spy dick cheney seems to think so. you know i don't have evidence of it. but i'm going to it's

a curious thing why would he go to hong kong for his refuge and other places available that he could have chosen and given the state of sign of american relations particularly when it comes to things about the cyber domain it really is a curious choice but again no evidence to date i'll tell you how i would handle it or i still in government i would make this one of my working i pod to seize one not not all one of my working up offices and then try to seek out evidence to prove that just proves they had offices now if you were had of an a say and cia what happens when a young colleague of yours a talented good guy walks into your office and tells you boss i think we have a problem with prison what do you say to that. well actually that is that's a great question and what makes all of this so troubling is that mr snowden didn't do that and if he wants to be a true whistle blower he needs to go to

a supervisor or his supervisors boss or the general counsel inside the organization or the inspector general or even to members of congress to express his complaints i mean there's a clear structure within the u.s. government to do that no look i'll be the first to admit that requires great courage and human beings being human beings or there might be some of there who would attempt to take retribution against an officer who attempted to do that but that's the right way to do these things and when not when somebody comes to you with a concern certainly it is true for me you've got to take those concerns very very seriously and this is somebody acting out of conscience and you need to sit down and talk with that individual and if necessary follow up to see if their concerns actually have real merit i remember back in two thousand and seven there are also cases of whistleblowing when you were had of an essay. man addressed you know what their concerns before they went public with their information. i had actually left

an essay by two thousand and five and so though those events in zero seven and zero eight came after i had left but i have no knowledge that other than complaining about some technological decisions that were made inside an essay i have no knowledge that anything akin to an appropriate whistleblower process had begun at the agency general hayden why the secrecy of greats like this disaster basically what's going on inside and a say in cia right now and you should know as somebody being held responsible talk us through things what do you do when a major crisis exposes you yeah now what you're looking for is responsibility not necessarily guilt all right you want people to be open to you want a clear description with regard to what has happened and so you go to individuals to learn to to create lessons that allow you to prevent or at least reduce the

possibilities that these kinds of things could happen in the future and so you're doing a lot of forensics on the system you're talking to people who knew this young man what kind of things did his actions suggest to bottom you're talking to a supervisor what did you suspect about him that this surprise you did you see any kind of indicators and then you're also doing a damage assessment and let me let me list for you three three different lanes in which damages almost certainly occurred number one it tells our adversaries our capabilities it tells them what we can do and it also tells them what we won't do and that can be very damaging secondly this will punish american firms who have cooperated with the n.s.a. . punish them even though all they've ever done is simply obey american law and help defend the united states and then then finally if there's anyone else out there in the world of another government to potential source who might want to

cooperate with the united states why would they trust us when we promise that we can keep a secret so all of those things are damaging well you brought up firms from your own experience have social media companies any choice other than obey n.s.a. orders. well again not been an n.s.a. for a long time no but my understanding of the program is that the these companies these private concerns were responding to specific court orders and under u.s. law they can fight those orders in court some have done that i don't know the results of any of these contentious cases but my suspicion is they win some and they lose some but if they're doing everything that's legal why do you say why are you saying they'll be punished well because these are international firms and although they're acting very consistent with american law there will be others in

the world who will look at them with suspicion and and certainly from my point of view on warners just suspicion that that's what's going to happen and what's happening to the programs like the ones that snowden made public this prison data collecting tool are they being wrapped up right now worries the n.s.a. going to go ahead with it in your opinion no i yeah i would see no reason why either the programs that he revealed the metadata program or the prism program why they would be stopped there lawful they're appropriate they're affective but the effectiveness may be the element that's most harmed by these revelations again an adversary is now know what we can do and also know what we won't do the boundaries of american law and policy and that gives them a higher probability that they'll be able to protect their communications from united states agencies trying to intercept them can tell you something though as much as prison is huge and it has turned america into

a database platform for all it's access to facebook google yahoo microcell i mean that's are not brothers own land activity prior to the boston bombing are you guys maybe casting the net a little white. well actually the sun i asked were not detected by any program like this in the sun i use were not detected because prism isn't suitable for detecting the kind of communications that sister and i have brothers had prior to the boston bombing i mean prism is about foreigners it requires a belief on the part of the national security agency that those people we want to monitor are foreigners and have foreign intelligence value and we've got to prove that in broad terms to an american court before we can insist that one of these companies assist us in that effort you know president obama has claimed surveillance programs have stopped fifty attacks but since this program has began operating shortly after nine eleven how many terrorist attacks were prevented sali

by information gathered from this prison like programs that could not be gained through any other source. right and that's a great question and i don't mean to be indirect with my answer but i'm going to be indirect. i don't know is the correct answer to your question how many have been prevented only through the efforts of these two programs between actuality i can't point to any program very often that is the sole reason that we've had an intelligence success i mean one of the one of the great achievements of american intelligence in the past dozen years is that we've been able to blend multiple streams of information with little bits of data here in little bits of data there that we've been able to convert combine into a meaningful picture and in other words we've been able to pick up shards of glass that individually have no meaning but because we collectively have a large number of these shards can actually combine them into

a very meaningful mosaic i want to read out a quote from snowden the consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed i think what it's trying to say that a lot of people feel uncomfortable after these leaks because it seems like you break into my home you listen to my phone calls you intercept my e-mails my private s.m.s. ace without telling me you're doing that and you're labeling all of that as war on terror i mean can you really not fight were terror and protect privacy my privacy. well i think the president was right when he said responsible governments have to make choices you can't have absolute privacy and absolute security there always has to be a balance between between the two and and the balance frankly is based upon that to tell the of circumstances what is the nature of the threat how real is that threat how imminent is that threat how effective is this tool in and detecting that

threat and so i think i agree with the president that this is a a suitable balance though i should point out that some of the things you said americans are saying are simply errors of fact we aren't doing many of those things but and unfortunately here in the united states when these kinds of stories get out into the public domain i'm fond of saying they are rushed into the darkest corner of the room is as rapidly as possible so so one of the important things is to make sure the american people exactly understand what we're doing no to go back to snowden is quote about the consent of the governed this is an ancient athens this isn't a direct democracy we're allowed the entire population to vote on every proposition we are a representative democracy. the people's representatives were informed of these programs and they voted in favor of them they've been approved by two presidents

they've been approved by the american court system in the american system at the executive branch the legislative branch and the judicial branch line up it doesn't get any better than that in terms of consent of the government but i mean that security state is not really a state religion that can't be questioned and if you question it then you're not a lawyer right i mean and are you saying you know not all that's right and are you saying they prison hasn't spied on americans. now that has been pressing to private and the predicate for prism the predicate for prism is that the target of the surveillance is a foreigner and what's happened is that story has been confused with the metadata story which is indeed about americans but it's about american phone records not american conversations or communications art we're going to take a short break and we'll return with former n.s.a. and cia director michael hayden on the new american packages and then ask who is

really the enemy. talking about language as well but i will only react to situations i have read the reports i'm likely to put in the know i will leave that to the state department to comment on your latter point to say. the security guards are going to talk you know gonna. take you know more weeks and. when you say to direct question the press for a change when you. get ready for a. pretty. little down to to freedom.

down in the front. and the rest. will be a pretty. good laboratory. was to build the world's most sophisticated robot which doesn't give a darn about anything. to teach me reason why you should care about humans and. this is why you should want your only dog.

welcome back to the show our guest today is michael hayden former n.s.a. and cia director when we're discussing the fallout from prison gate on edward snowden's extraordinary revelations general hayden what exactly does it tell you about your system that your own people whistle blow on you because it's not the first time. no no it's not and you know i mentioned before that i believe mr snowden was not a hero he had committed a crime but he was also a troubled young man let me phrase it for you this way what kind of what kind of moral arrogance is required to believe that your personal moral judgment trumps that of two presidents two houses of our congress the american courts and over

thirty thousand of your coworkers. know i would miss it in american society as in russian society we have a generation of young folks whose kind of absolute commitment to transparency which is well beyond anything of my generation or even my children's generation and we are now like the russian security services or any security service or out the world we're now recruiting from populations whose views toward secrecy and openness or a bit different than those that have been traditionally held by the people we've recruited in a former age and so you've got a mr snowden you you've got private manning both of whom have almost have this romantic attachment to it to revealing secrets. but in both cases this commitment to absolute transparency has created great harm it's the security of people around the world but can i ask you something if not whistleblowers who else

can stop you in case you push it too far there must be checks and balances everywhere right. know they did you you're right you're right now let me raise a technical point for you a whistleblower has to point out unlawful activity even snowden admits this was an unlawful he claims it was unwise it was inconsistent with his personal value system but no one claims it was unlawful it was consistent with the law it was done under a court order with the knowledge of the congress and it's hard for for me to imagine that you know that anyone would afford him whistleblower status at least in the technical legal definition of the term now where do you get debate you could debate in our representative government you get debate from a judge who pushes back saying he's uncomfortable with the outlines of the court order we want him to sign you get debate in the american congress were members

particularly the intelligence oversight committees get a chance to look at these programs and to pass on their merits as to whether or not they would authorize them or appropriate funds for them. i mean what i'm talking for a while are we really saying that giving all the details of my private life to a government agency is the new normal it's it's the new patch we all stick norm. no no not at all and again that you're saying that as a reflection as to how badly reported this story is bit the details of your private life are not being shared with the government and these two programs what the government gets is a macro database of phone calls but just fact of call nothing more and with regard to the prism program has already said it focuses on foreign communications of intelligence value to the united states that's what the national security agency and i might add what the f.s.b. is all about so the whole thing is that maybe if the security state was

a little more transparent like obama promised it would be before the us elected president that maybe the american public and the foreignness will be more comfortable with programs like prism. you bring up a wonderful point and somebody with my background coming from the security services i mean we're reluctant to say much about anything we actually think we're more operationally effective the less our adversaries know about what it is we're doing but we also realize we work in a democracy and i'm now fond of saying that in the american democracy the president probably gets to do anything one off one time based upon his presidential authority and a narrow definition that it's simply lawful but in our system and our system the president doesn't get to do anything over a long period of time without generalized popular support and and you're right you

don't get generalized popular support unless the american people and especially their representatives have some sense of broad knowledge maybe not detail but broad knowledge about what their government is doing on their behalf and so i know have to admit even as a security professional that we may have to make a few things more public things that actually might make us a little less affective so that we can make the american population more comfortable about what it is we're doing otherwise the american population the american democracy will tell us to stop doing all of what we're doing and so we're going to have to have these trade offs transparency popular acceptance and operational effectiveness general hayden you brought up your security background but you also come from a long line of republicans whereas the republican point of view on all of this i mean how does the less government i believe in with all of this. well

i think your viewers are seeing a very interesting dynamic here in the united states i mean let me first of all challenge the assessment that i'm a republican i i was selected to be they had a cia by a republican president but i was selected to be head of n.s.a. by demick. president president clinton but your question is about the republican party and it's really quite interesting here in the american political system that the extreme right of the republican party and the extreme left of the democrat party seem to be coming together with regard to common concern about some of the things that the center is doing to keep americans safe and free and so you do actually have some republicans criticizing this program on civil liberties less government is better government grounds rather than addressing the program on what are frankly more traditional public republican grounds on the grounds of national security you know at the end of the day the fact is that prison gate has

damaged obama's reputation personally but it has also undermined you know the reputation of his office and the american presidency in the eyes of the world i mean it was so how he was in front of merkel in germany and he had to justify himself i have to justify prison. i. promise a little earlier on interrupting i should have programs are so thin coat take you live to washington where a high level summit between russian and u.s. officials just wrapped up for mr sergey lavrov you can see the defense ministers today showing good holding a live media conference after meeting their american counterparts let's listen in but it was that this was the argument of the mosul area of where we were but also the. proliferation of much importance the shoes space car peroration. including this with the peaceful use of space

community at the u.n. we have a lot of convergent interests in this syria and common approach is to solving the problems that emerge since mankind develops its. space more and more in the mix new phenomena on the regional issues we mostly talked about syria. and again we share a common opinion here is that no matter what we need to convene a conference in geneva too soon as possible according to the us russian initiative that was presented with during john kerry's was a to moscow on may seventh this year. we. on the subject we need to do our best to progress towards the goal we set in a car and that we need to coordinate our efforts. to

bring together. the syrian government and the opposition driving terrorists out of syria and this requires agreement political agreement between the syrian government and the opposition regarding the transitional period . as agreed. in the geneva communiqué. cheer it all must be done based on common consensus between the government and the delegation of the opposition we have agreed that russian and u.s. experts will meet once again to discuss specific issues preparing for this conference later this month and other such meeting will take place so we also talked about the ghana status and we noted that we are it's the rules of both interested in. making sure that this country. does not pose such

a threat in terms of drug trafficking and other serious issues and our use partner six pressed their gratitude to us for opening russian territory for transit. since the. time we signed disagreement on transit to these there were thirty four a hundred flights through our territory that held these trends forward two hundred sixty five thousand hues servicemen this is a very significant figure which indicates that it's important for us to continue caught up reading on this issue. particularly given the fact you're off twenty fourteen when the bulk of the forces will be withdrawn from afghanistan and when the election is scheduled to take place there we agree that we need to pay . much attention to political solutions in form that will help the people of

gayness tend to do so in their future by themselves and create a state where all minorities will feel comfortable and secure we also exchanged their views on the iranian nuclear program. we also look forward to the next three plus three meeting which will include iran representatives and we would like to support iran's new president who said they are open to looking for new agreements in this area we have very similar views regarding the situation on the korean peninsula just like the u.s. we think that the six party talks should resume it's an early date here the. a we also had separate meetings between foreign ministers and defense ministers in at my meeting with john kerry we discussed some by let's really shoes and we agreed that we have all the necessary conditions to move forward and achieve further progress

we have prepared several agreements documents which we are going to sign soon and we'll continue working with you we are both very positive and optimistic and we think the. these consultations helped bring our approaches closer on a number of specific issues regarding strategic stability and we will definitely continue this work which would think it's very helpful to insure and secure stability worldwide thank you. thank you. before the two plus two meeting i had a separate meeting with my colleague my counterpart mr cagle and we talked about a wide variety of wider when joey shoes we mostly talk about the missile defense. it was and the new proposals and new approaches. which as far as we

understand are related to some economic he she is. in the delays that we currently see are temporary so we are still interested in the future. and it should because what's most important is what mr lavrov talked about here is that we need a comprehensive approach to solving those issues. which means that in addition. to. specific plans self deploying missile defense elements in certain places we think that we should also talk about sea based systems especially in the bar in c. and then the baltic sea because we are also concerned about those plants as well and we should also. realize that. this.

we are not against other countries improving their security but they should not boost their security at russia's expense. i hope we all understand what we're talking about here is what i talked about with my come to part we also talked about the number of issues. related to ghana stand. so we're still getting into the movement and. its troops being withdrawn. in large numbers and we also talked about what will happen in the future i may tell you frankly that i told my come to part. you. we were you. know i talked to him about anxieties and concerns that have gania stands neighbors have i mean the jacket on and gives ten and the steps they're currently

taking to secure their territory and protected. us so we told him about our experience experience so withdrawing troops from a. instead of what we did prior to withdrawing our troops it's how we train military personnel police force how we built schools and. everything else even though this did not less theory long. after we would through of course we also talked about syria and all the matters related to syria. i would say that our approach is our understanding. has been presented in much detail by mr lever of. we agree. of course.