freedom of speech go ahead ed yeah. i mean i don't understand how you can say people aren't allowed to participate i mean look this was this was all born out of a paper that was written in two thousand and eight and in the paper great paper but to implement something like that it was not going to have i'm quite right i think the whole thing is kind of silly but it's worth it and it's one of my people ok not just hang on to me or let me take my time yeah yeah people can't participate but it does tell me what you mean by that because that's a lie and you know that's a lie there are companies like monopoly coming like these are pay pal and they are they are censoring the internet and they are present they're preventing people from from being out of business over the internet what about sanctions sanctions countries like iran north korea how like a part of the your itinerary is not merely sit for your quite right and he's not participate in the cottage because because all these companies to me are to say that he then i mean. ok go ahead. ok so i'm here in order to have

a good conversation you got to let me speak ok go ahead and the point of this is that you said that a lot of the countries are not allowing there's a lot of people can't participate i mean during the time we're financial crisis you are spot on there's a financial crisis there's a lot of people who are questioning the validity of anything these days to implement something over the computer something some new currency and you think that all of us that this is going to take off that's a pipe dream that is just not going to happen even though some of these things you're saying bob might be true there might be elements of it that are not true ok just talking gentlemen we have a no again not in my reality does not. get my we have left thirty gas today plan to just jump in here because i had daniel go ahead daniel yeah i just want to jump in because you know i think you know i guess i'm just curious both of the other guests for one it's very very likely that we will have digital currencies in the future this is a trend that we've seen over the past twenty years the first digital currencies were implemented in the ninety's they were regulated out of existence but they're going to continue to evolve and get better over time so it's

a big stake to dismiss big point whether or not because it is successful long term you know nobody knows but we will have virtual currencies and we will have decentralized currencies and we also need to be aware what the implications of this is right now governments regulate every bank they regulate currencies very strongly so that they can control money laundering so that they can prevent abuses by controlling the financial sector you know whether or not you agree with something you know it may or may not be an abuse but that's how governments control things through the financial sector with the centralized currencies governments that lose that ability they lose the ability to come in and say that something's that legal and we're going to stop it because they don't have control over to them or they also lose access to monetary policy so these are big implications that we need be aware of i don't think we can dismiss it as a pipe dream ok amir would you like to reply to that i completely agree with you doing that down the road is going to we're not that long the money down the road he was just being a lifer. people just mean together but just last week i went to the meet up group

and is now over sixty people and this is not this is not this is not like activists or like your every day are you sure kind of anti system and it's not normal people like programmers and people work in a city and they found a new new thing new really interesting technology called bitcoin and they've seen how the banks are responding they they've seen that they're moving and get making moves the governments have been trying to shut it down and they were there they were there brainstorming so like these people are saying how do we take on these big organizations because it is a really powerful sort it's just opened up the doors to a whole new group of people that this movement didn't have before you know it's there's a there's a blacklist. of amir it's just something that is certainly in the financial companies that are not allowed to be in all of the bitcoin exchanges are ok i mean there's let me jump in let me see let me jump in and read go ahead. amir i mean look conceptually is doing your search down the road this might work

you're in a financial crisis right now over and over and around every place in the world japan in europe and so on and right now people are looking at bringing on a new currency or a new way of transacting you know trade now are looking to make sure that there is security so that god please you because you don't have the complete is that it's inverse to hold the reins but isn't this the whole point of the currency of this new currency security. well you know but but then again i mean you tell me anything that secure you talk about you know earlier me or talk about wikipedia i mean there are hackers there are things you know we had a situation i guess about a year or two ago about you know someone hacked he in a way this was just not secure. it's a good concept but it's just not going to happen right now ok dan you look at its hand now and it's working well even if you don't give are you if you know you well know about danielle go ahead they saw danielle she's going to head people you know you know i mean if you don't agree with me ok even if you don't agree with bitcoin as a currency is certainly a successful commodity lots of people have invested money in it and that some people have been successful some people lost money but it holds value anything that

can hold value is a useful commodity it can be traded right now and so even if you don't accept it as something that's a long term currency it's definitely something that's being used right now the store value when people right now don't trust her and ultimately when you look at currencies it's about whether or not to push up to it right now you have a large number of users accepting it ok ed. well you think you know what is the value let's just talk about this i'm going to invest or what's the value of bitcoin if the computers were shut off what's the underlying value of that what was it worth a car and seen this print was actually information and not computers that's why it's value as long as others are willing to accept it if it actually it's a value you give you know current in exchange for something else it has a value it's like a baseball card it has a value because people say it has value america had jump in people you got it right coins and now we've actually it's a proper underground economy it's like i'm going this is what this is it's going to take months and it will take all of your what. ed go ahead what percentage of the

world is using bitcoin right now a mere a mere what percentage of the world and trade is using bitcoin right now amir go ahead you know when the you know in the states came in cyprus just recently to take it to take a it had calmed people spank accounts of thirty percent to buy out the banks every account of one hundred thousand euro a second right had taken a thirty percent and that's that is not going to strike there's no that's not what i usually hear that's your view that's not i as you said gently senators want to be have value. go ahead of me or in order for there to be a value to this in order for there to be a value there has to be people using it so my question again which you didn't answer i mean the doesn't it coin all the world because you think coins are you only for joking but you can go right now and buy and sell because the market is is pretty fick and it's pretty liquid and it's far more liquid actually than the fear of currencies because i can i have they shut down my bank account was lost why do

you feel they still answer my question on the banks why don't you have them are you going to answer my call i should've been using bitcoin to travel the world on for south america free europe i have not any problem not to use an a.t.m. i haven't had to use an exchange i've not to use a bank so don't tell me there's no value because it's people are trading in london alone is over seventy different traders there are all different loads of businesses where you can go and buy sell because you can offer services on the internet you know my sister a year ago she was offering up paintings on life she was making hundreds of dollars just by selling digital paintings it's not it's not is there and it's working it's not so direct a concept it's a market we've got charts we call graphs market places and it's business is flourishing the whole doing great booming in fact faster than any other technology and. it's because you get to the early days of the mom where you can see the two that goes on here all right already i go ahead we're going to head into that i want to go to daniel go ahead ed. so the question again to me are others charts and

graphs but that doesn't create value the question i had for you that i still haven't gotten the answer what person in order for there to be an increase in value that has to be usage of bitcoin what percentage of the world is using bitcoin your sister uses which is great maybe one day i'll use it but in terms of it being widely accepted during a very uncomfortable time in the world economy is probably not today ok daniel go ahead daniel and i think again you know let's go to daniel let's go to daniel. you know he's one of the few gentlemen and gentlemen place i need to go to daniel ok to grow over time yeah i mean daniel why is it important to have so big. you know the size isn't as important right now the point is that right now with a technology you look at it as a network and the networks growing increasingly you have more and more users the last two to six i saw showed the coin was larger than twenty or forty of the world's smallest currencies so it does have

a large population use and grows every day we see what used to be something that was really. nice market where you had a small number of users and arcas libertarian kind of crypto libertarians who are obsessed with this now it's moved mainstream as a mirror said you have lots of businesses who are putting billions of dollars into new startups gentlemen i have to jump in here we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on bitcoin stayed with our kids. in the room. exactly what happened that day i don't know but a woman i killed. piers later is when i got arrested for. for

a crime i did not do. we have numerous cases where police officers lie about polygraph results. innocent people to confess to police officers don't beat people anymore i mean it just doesn't happen really. in the course of interrogation why because there's been this is like meant no because the psychological techniques are more effective in obtaining confessions than physical abuse and they were often they could get what they wanted they could say what they wanted and there was no evidence of what they did or what they said. the. wealthy british science. that's not on.

market why not. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with max conjure for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kinds or report . most of these voices the couple of a lot for violence or theft. of the window climbed in and tried to start it. we pushed it a little way and here we were drunk. and soon to have you're an alcoholic nearly all of them are homeless orphans with no money to. buy you really going to live without me your school for a moment but there it felt like i was back in those street. you're going to beat me up at any moment. you know that i turned my back i couldn't help wondering about my safety. isn't a warden he's there doc the father you could say that slava races he makes normal

people out of ugly duckling. mission. accreditation three. four charges three. months free. free. free. free blog video for your media project a free media dog r t dot com. leave .

the. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing bitcoins. ok daniel i'd like to go back to you in atlanta what's the tipping point for this

thing to really catch on because they have the global financial crisis a lot of people simply don't trust the financial system anymore. you know i think what the tipping point will be is when we reach a critical mass and you know what that number is i don't think we can know but once there are a number of users with this currency we're going to see a number of retailers who will start accepting it already we see this for online services so you can host a website and pay for this using that point we have a.t.m.'s where you can deposit cash and receive digital coins to spend elsewhere you can buy coffee in some places so it's just a matter of time before we get there what we see though is that there is lots of innovation right now around different types of payment systems digital payment systems so you know it used to be that you just had cash then we had credit cards and a.t.m. cards now there's lots of things like pay pal or square or other types of services real you can pay electronically and even governments are in favor of this because

cash transactions are much more efficient it's good for the economy is good for consumers so we're moving in this direction and as i said at the beginning whether or not big coin is the future virtual currencies are the future because they're simply so much better than everything else ok that's that was simply said ed what do you say maybe it's not big coin but it will be something like it could be. you know that's right and i don't disagree with that i mean i pay ides rare that i use it as we go into it's rare that i use cash i mean we pay for things electronically but my whole point of this is that you said earlier daniel that twenty four of the smaller currencies you know it's larger than twenty four the smaller currencies if you look at the world economy the world economy is the united states we're you know if you take the size of japan and germany and china atom up in terms although china is growing quite a bit it matches the united states once you start getting much bigger countries and a lot more usage then it will be taken seriously right now it's just not taken very seriously most people don't use it and during the time that we're in right now

a financial crisis worldwide some new technology is probably not going to be accepted you know in a moment but don't you think this is exactly the right timing hold it don't you think this is exactly the right time for this kind of innovation it would be nice to well started but when when the rubber meets the road people are not going to do that people are very scared about where their money is if it's secure they're worried about the computer well i have had your money on the side so it's not going to if you had your money in cyprus a meter jump in yeah the dollar drops are going to ninety percent as the debate point in the last month and the big point security policy is far better than anything exists it's not really powerful when i hold because all my computer and i sent to someone directly over the internet using software that i wrote completely myself and i had a buy in from here and let me ask you about one of the champions but not everyone writes their own software explained that. that's right you know there's someone who we're doing an article you know one from me or go ahead i can't write software or

software it's open source so just like someone can read french or spanish or english you can download the software for bit current and you can read through the source code and see it does exactly what it says it does it's a system based of mathematics and cryptography not of laws and legislation are subject to the full abilities and failings of human is a proper system that works according to principles mathematical princes that can't be cheated or bent according to the wills and customs of whatever politicians you know. a ten year old kid can download the bitcoin software get set up within five minutes and start accepting payments from someone in north korea our or iran and you can make a gambling website of whatever idea that they have are having to have governments or states coming in saying ok i don't like that kind of daniel what you're doing i'm going to states want to have a piece of this action here in taxation is an issue. daniel you know taxation is an issue you know i want to start with the issue of trust because at the heart i think

i was right that the issue is trust of people trust that point values if people trust other currencies they'll use those currencies as well what you have with big coin is that over time every day that goes by we're bitcoin is a stable currency where it's accepted by more users that's increasing the trust of every day that goes by where governments do bad things with their currencies that means people lose trust in those currencies. but you're right at the end of the day a lot of governments care about bitcoin because they want to one transactions they want to have insight into what's going on in their economies and to at the end of the day they're not going to treat big coins as something that can be ignored if it reaches a critical mass because they'll want to tax these transactions once they recognize that they're going to giving it legitimacy so you have this tradeoff here one that one hand some governments might not want to give legitimacy to an alternative currency but on the other hand if there's a lot of transactions happening there there are one a piece of that pie in terms of taxes so they're going to have to recognize its legitimacy you want to reply to that. i mean i'll just add that you know from

a marketing standpoint simply what a mirror said a second ago he can write his own code he can then do transactions with north korea and iran just that comment alone would scare people away from this going to what daniel said it is a trust and you have seven billion people in the world many of them don't have computers many of them don't understand but cohen most of them don't want to hear that they want trust and during a time like we have right now where the world economy is just you know barely hanging on the you know even though it might make sense conceptually somebody's the start of something like this something you know if you can get people using it you're going let's say well that you know let me go to let me go because it's a very interesting to point i mean pay pal what. we have sixty countries in the world ok those are put little to political decisions to all individuals have to follow about a meter go ahead. yeah. a lot of blocks access from of sixty different countries you know some because of higher for some for political reasons some for other

reasons countries like feel appear in kenya and what that means is those people on the allowed to participate in the general economy and when much of my improving the economy the way to improve is not to say we need additional restrictions we need additional regulations or whatever shutting people we need to remove the barriers to entry we need to increase we need to globalize trade we need to allow everybody everybody in the world equal access not just western countries it's really a cheek to say all that scares people north korea and iran what about the african countries can you what you're saying they don't have it right so that to participate in the global economy really no i do what you're saying is you the miracle of the snake is what we're not sure what not because you are in general and i want to actually show you let me jump in here daniel go ahead and jay and you'll please yeah i mean you know if you look at the internet in north korea as a part of that china is a part of that you have a lot of countries that maybe we don't agree with but they're part of this global

network is the same thing with digital currencies you can't really exclude someone but what you do is you regulate the intermediaries and that's what's going to be happening right now that's who we're seeing for example the united states where the financial regulatory agencies are going after the intermediary since they can't go after big point it's a decentralized system they can't there's no company in charge of it there's no person that they can go after so what they say is some point most people want to convert bitcoin into another currency for example u.s. dollars they can go if you're going to. do business with these converters they can go after any other company that's providing services is basically united states to coin users and that's how you get this kind of regulation so you're still going to be excluding the end of the day north korea or other countries that you disagree with because you know the united states and other countries want to exclude them from the international system so they want to punish them and i think they have reason to do that ok amir because you're the odd man out on the program going to

get something on your side all right ed go ahead go ahead ed. let me just respond amir i in no way shape or form i seem to exclude anybody i'm a very much a free market person worldwide i'm simply saying in order for this to catch on there has to be world wide acceptance more so than there is right now i love startups i love new business i'd love new ideas i'm very much a supporter of the free market as i said i'm just simply saying in order for this to really catch on during a time where everyone is scared of everything excuse me and i were going is there i know there's something in the new body and it's something new a miracle i mean. there's a political thing this is a political thing as well it's a protest as well isn't it. like the big point is goes beyond just digital money it's far grander than if you actually look at the original white paper for big coin he says because it is a distributing distributed system for time stamps contracts and i just happens that

the most common form of contract we use is transferring value from one person to another but there's so much more they can emerge out of the big points system a lot of a lot of these think a lot of this potential that's in the big point system simply isn't used yet because it's still it's not seen in stages where it's forming it's like the internet we are the internet did not have web browsers it was very hard and very technical for people to use but people came along they built the tools they built the systems for people to interact with that with bitcoin you can do really incredible things things like you know things like health care or hospitals or schools. people like that where we have to find ways to keep funding that stuff and because it allows you to do distributed funding of public infrastructures i think it's really interesting fascinating stuff you can do stuff like. you know when you're running for the city and there's all these white fi hotspots you could create a special kinds of contracts in the big point system where you can pay for the wife

i haven't wife or as you will crack the sea and people can open up their hotspots and. some of the funds bought from me to help fund the internet that they are using and not helps incentivise a creation ok ok i got your point there and it's going to get a lot of people are afraid interesting stuff a lot of people are afraid that the state is going to be pushed out of the economy with this new technology how do you feel about that i mean the states could very well get pushed out in the law could be pushed out especially if you bypass them and you know what i that's so far down the road i think some states who will be against this some countries will be against this you know what i get a free market person i'd like to see it happen i just think that as peter said earlier daniel said earlier that is the trust factor and you don't hear people talking about this it seems like kind of a whole key thing and it surely but it's actually a lot of people don't trust the banks they just don't trust banks anymore do they this is why this is happening they they do that's not true they might not trust that that's just not true people trust banks and i mean the money for all over the

world they trust banks that might not trust banks in cyprus and that might not happen where they don't trust the banks in cyprus but they certainly don't trust their information on the internet people seeing it and then also having their currency on something in his remaining old people's idea of calling it quote i'm just now returning to reality so lewdly fascinating discussion many thanks again my guests in london atlanta and in dallas and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember prostate schools. recently were.

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a lot for violence or theft. but we drove the window climbed in and tried to start it. dump we pushed it a little way and here we were drunk. and soon who you're an alcoholic nearly all of them are homeless orphans no money or relatives. are you going to tell me. for a moment but there it felt like i was back in those street hooligans are going to beat me up at any moment of the. year that i turned my back i couldn't help wondering about my safety. isn't a warden he's their father you could say that slava races he makes normal people out of ugly duckling.

more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. operations are all.

aside the prince who defected from the royal family slams the gulf war in the case for widespread human rights abuses and a violent crackdown on the opposition in the exclusive interview with our. saudi arabia's oppression of anti regime activists has intensified with the rest and long jail sentences leaving the number of political prisoners in the country at well over forty years and. the latest leaks reveal only the likes of russia china and iraq are ahead of america's allies on the n.s.a.'s spying kidneys .