put the film on there have me take you up on that again if you refer to that as legalized homophobia and let us be clear that being gay in russia is not illegal and the legislation that we are now discussing is the propaganda of homosexual activity and more minors and i would like to ask you specifically why do you consider it is to be and in now when the right of any athlete of hugh started preaching homosexuality to minus one their parents for example are against it and as you probably know this law has an overwhelming support around eighty percent of the russian public strongly supportive to a many a many answers to your question one is that's when it comes from a certain country or course it's his or her human rights to use to freedom of speech to freedom of expression so if for instance and i asked you to is bisexual would give an interview in russia during the winter games saying that it's alright

framer to love a man or woman gender doesn't really matter it's about love and love for a person that would be illegal because minors screwed listen to such an interview so why would we stop the freedom of expression simply because the russian authorities. can always does law but it's not just the russian authorities that if the russians are actually in general and i understand that this may sound appalling to you i actually totally agree with you that algae you know part of universal human rights but i don't think it's a matter of personal attitudes about social values and the ways of changing them and when you threaten russians with. something that is very important and something very a fallacy for the majority of the russian population will the russian authorities have the obligation internationally agreed upon to uphold international agreed.

human rights and they don't because the freedom of expression is a human right is universal is for people in russia but for people as well as well clusters one very important. aspect to this discussion about the winter olympic games the olympic games are games of freedom and they are to be held without any form of discrimination that's what the international olympic movement is about whether eighty percent of the russians are in favor of or not that's not the point the point is people should not be discriminated cause it's not the point eucom to this country and i don't understand why why conduce athletes com to russia compete on an equal basis have you know private live off their hours day in places where minors are not present nobody thought of them from actually i should quote now a un secretary general ban ki moon who has said on many occasions that human rights

are not restricted to daytime or nighttime or for certain groups of people no day are universal there are there for everybody all time so day and night you cannot say you have human rights but not after six o'clock sort of means to freedom of expression the freedom to express yourself in words but also in behavior is there all the time and we cannot say simply because you know we are in russian soil all of a sudden we don't have those rights anymore russia is part of the international community pretends to be a very important international player and that means that they should uphold internationally recognized human rights but i wonder why do you completely discount that they are a different standard is there different cultural traditions different social traditions in many of the different countries you know in rome do as romans do i mean you know i think that is a. i do that in seventy six countries around the globe homosexuality is

criminalized you can actually stand to jail or accidentally get it for homosexuality let's make it clear that in russia it's not the case and the reason why i mention that is because in one of the your recent speeches i think it was in germany you put russian cam'ron in the same sometimes as you know the dangerous places for again last been people and i'm sure you know that encounter on people understand to jail for five years for just looking gain all day when engaging in homosexual behavior but just look there was in cameroon i spoke with the prime minister with the minister of justice it's true in cameroon in the penal code it says that being homosexual or sexual behavior which is translated as being homosexual could lead to a long prison sentence and of course in russia nowadays homosexuality is not criminalized but what the government does is curtailing human rights that are

usually used by homosexual people but also by their allies because if you are a father or a mother or a gay son or a lesbian daughter and you want to say in russia that's all right as long as they are good citizens as long as they are loving citizens and they care for their country that would be wrong already in russia if a minor could hear that because it's considered to be propaganda well i think this is a contested issue and unfortunately this law as weighed as it is hasn't been tested in in court yet and i think we have to wait until it is actually applied to make such sweeping generalisations it has been tested in ten regions in russia a similar law has been in place for a longer period of time and in certain regions the law has been tested in court and people have been fined for instance for wearing a t. shirt with a rainbow flag on it you just alluded to that and i think it has to be mentioned that the level of social hall. will fall be in russia is extremely high and there

is no secret about that and what's interesting is that this is not unique specifically to russia if you look at any other post soviet state or countries in eastern europe live bulgaria the czech republic romania you know they're now members of the european union but the levels of social homophobia there are also extremely extremely high and i think that points to the fact that homophobia is extremely complicated and deeply rooted phenomenon and what i would put to you is that the tactics that the l g b t community has has employed so far in russia in relation to russia as well as in relation to many other countries like ukraine and georgia are extremely counterproductive to the l.g.b. cause do you seeing that if you indeed succeed in boycotting the olympics gays and lesbians will be treated any better in russia on a social day to day basis i want to go back to what you said about post soviet countries i was invited to open the first struck pride in the czech

republic and i can tell you from my own experience and from talking to many politicians and people in the czech republic girls learn so much on the phobia they're really not to be compared with homophobic level in russia but he says there is a lot in the polls it's not just anecdotal it shouldn't be based on your personal impressions look at the polls of the czech republic and the level of cell phone number exactly . so when the prague mayor said yes it's all right to have a gay product unfortunately it's never allowed in moscow for instance but in the czech republic they respect freedom of their citizens the proprietors are allowed to do the third one will take place this moment and we can say that in the czech republic generally speaking the people are not homophobic but coming back to your question would it help. russian elegy b.t.i.

people i personally don't think so that's why humans rights watch is against a boy called because we think that. it's important that the olympic winter games take place but that athletes and supporters and everybody watching will learn about the state of legislation in russia and the state of homophobia and that it will be a public discussion we think that would help people in russia more than men the world would turn away russia because then probably p.t.i. people in russia will be forgotten by the world but we'll come back to the fascinating conversation dried off a short break. wealthy

british. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with my next concert no holds barred look at the global financial headlines kind as a report on. what defines a country's success. faceless figures of economic growth. or a factual standard of living.

admission and free accreditation free zones for judges free. range month free. free studio time free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects and free media. dot com in. welcome back to worlds apart where we are discussing what many russians consider to be the unsporting behavior of the global community with boris dittrich advocacy

director of human rights watch program mr dittrich just before we went to the break you mentioned that perhaps had a chance to hold several gay pride parades and you believe that's a sign that this is getting increasingly more tolerant now one of the reasons why that the authorities often side here in russia as well as in many other countries the ukraine for example for not holding such gay pride parades is the concern for helgi beauty community itself because obviously the authorities have the responsibility of ensuring that security and again the level of violence against people in russia as well as a rounded world including your own country the netherlands is extremely high so i wonder why i conned the l.g.b. community find a more productive way of working with the society here you know trying to change social norms i think there is a consensus medically that homosexuality in most cases is genetically

pre-determined so why not to try a different route rather than stay confrontational aggressive in your face approach that i would argue so far have been practicing and that's a very interesting question and my answer would be that in russia it's very difficult for an organization to organize and to be vocal and to present itself in public because with the legislation some organizations who accept money from elsewhere are considered to be what they call a foreign agent and the word agent already resembles something against russia which is of course not the case this is a civil society and there is a killer going on by to russia know sorties who do know and like the organizations are may be critical to words government or. her choice disappointing pons is there an invasion that usually always foreign it's all of the government approaches so

that's that's why they're perceived as biased but that doesn't mean democracy is not really functioning and that's a problem and then you said why does it always have to be in your face what are russian bt organizations ask for and what do they do want to same rights as everybody else that's what they want to do one freedom of expression for instance they are not allowed to you just mentioned that they want equal rights and they just want freedom of expression and they had that freedom of expression for the last twenty years that mean this is the every way the virus legislation that limits and that rate of expression the only image of gays and lesbians that we have and the public sphere so far are provoke a typically dressed man who make out on the streets who wear their sexuality only sleeve who indeed. well why late social norms of behavior on every possible occasion and i think many people of would be much more tolerant towards gays and lesbians if they had

a chance to see them in their other identities as community organizers this parents as neighbors you know all other identities that the will allow us to see that humanity rather than their homosexuality it's always all about homosexuality and nothing else no it's not about homosexuality it's all about rights and if for instance the mayor of moscow would a gay pride then the people of russia the people of moscow would see many gay men lesbian women bisexual men their parents their neighbors their friends their coworkers work demonstrate on the street and asking for equal rights and that's not something very extravagant or something like that something about basic rights and russia is part of the group of countries organized in the council of europe i'm coming back now to your. remark about protecting the bt people against aggressors the council of europe has said in

a very clear recommendation and also the russian government agreed with that and they said that if. phones to organize again prior to a mayor of a city is not out to ben and simply because it's about homosexuality and if there are security concerns because for instance one things there might be a lot of new your nonces or hooligans trying to attack d s l g b t demonstrators then the police should protect the freedom of expression and should protect demonstrators and this is also confirmed by the you in court for human rights in strasbourg but unfortunately russia doesn't care about even the european court for human rights decisions what i find extremely condescending in such approach is that you seem to be totally discounting the reality on the ground again it's not about rights i think we agreed that. people should be treated just like everybody else

bought how do you persuade the society and openly homophobic society that this is the way to proceed and i would argue that thought like and prayer you know having a discussion in such a tone very condescending tone and looking down onto onto the population if not productive i think i don't see how it's going to change the views of ordinary russian folk and therefore i'm very glad with this conversation this discussion because i think it's wonderful that on russian t.v. people can have a discussion about equal rights and about human rights and about people so that people can get informed but when the government is clear to all those human rights then it's impossible for the russian public to get all these arguments on the table and. i think that's very condescending of the russian government towards his own people it doesn't trust its own people and therefore it's limiting the freedom of

expression and when we see the princes do you court for human rights tells russia the gay pride to shoot to place and that the russian police should protect demonstrators and when russia then just ignores these rulings by the european court for human rights then the international community sings well russia and the russian government is very condescending to words internationally agreed upon writes ok. mr jittering the international community that you just mentioned those progressive western countries that have already adopted same sex marriage for example. didn't arrive there overnight it took you personally seventy years to make sure that same sex marriage is introduced in the netherlands and the netherlands was the first country to diesel in the united states homosexuality was just a couple of decades ago so on one hand you gave your own societies enough room and

space to come to terms with those issues there and you deny that to the russian society or any other society because regardless of what european governments or european court house to the russian government russian people the eighty percent of them who are against the public display of homosexuality i'm not going to listen so again this is something that has to come from with then rather than being told by the european court of human rights onto the russian government well it's being told by outsiders to the russian government because inside russia. people and their allies parents coworkers children they are asking for equal rights as well you might be right that eighty percent doesn't want it but when we talk about human rights we're not talking about percentages for instance when we had the discussion about race equality. several decades ago a lot of people in the united states were against it we needed the in the courts in

the united states to supreme court to tell the american public it's not ok to discriminate based on race and so what we ask is leadership from the russian politicians not using people as a scapegoat but to really support equal rights and that is something it's a phase we have to go through no the eyes of the world are focused on so jews because of the winter games and so are really welcome this discussion and i hope that after these discussions more people in russia really do understand that it's ok to be gay that you are born this way and that you have the same rights as everybody else in society i know that in your own country and in other lands the. suicide rate among l.g.b. teens are higher than on average within the population in the united states the violence against people is actually on the increase and in fact the national

coalition of anti-violence programs just reported that violence against al g.b.t. community in the united states is at the highest since one thousand nine hundred ninety eight aren't you concerned that these the style of algae b t advocacy that i began to would describe as pushy and in your face maybe actually putting the cart before the horse you're pushing all those changes legitimate changes on to societies before those societies are really ready and as a result of that seems to provoke a very significant backlash a very violent backlash well of course you've mentioned a few times in your questions a comparison between the netherlands my own country and russia for instance there is a big difference of course and that is that when there is homophobic attacks or when there is violence against the people in the know. and then the authorities are there to protect people to protect the victims for instance there is even

a police force in the netherlands specialized in homosexuality and so homosexuals victims of violence can go to the pink police force and can ask for help and they are being helped and do is no legislation which discriminates between heterosexual and homosexual people islamists and it's a right to be fair the spinet because our society had a very different experience from the russian society the dutch society didn't have to go through these major ideological transformation that russians have to go through when everything they previously believed family was proven false so i wonder again why would you expect a society that is still as a mature as the russian society to embrace all of those progressive values that the . most developed western democracies are still struggling with but my answer to that is that russia is not on our land russia is part of the international community russia is france is part of the council of europe where forty seven

european member states agree upon the fact that you're not to discriminate against people and therefore the council of europe says against russia this propaganda law is wrong you should repeal it to european courts says to russia you should. people to associates to be on the streets to be vocal to ask for the same rights this law may be extremely vaguely worth it and i wonder why not challenge it in the in the court of law you are a lawyer yourself you're a former lodges later why politicize this issue so much and that you know the tensions are running high people are getting offended we used a couple of. have a little late and warthe here condescension would be one of them why not go. straight to the russian quarter and take the floor out it's face value. i presume

that there will be russian organizations who want to do so i hope they will get the chance to go to the russian courts and to russian judges are in the pens enough to really look at the law as it is worded and see if it's unconstitutional or not but of course much more needs to be done on the sochi olympics winter games will take place in half years' time the eyes of the world are on soji and that's why of course there is a lot of discussion now about these laws but hopefully even after the games are over people will still pay attention to these laws and how it affects russian. people because we shouldn't forget about them after the games are over i mean they are in a very difficult situation they are not protected by the law we see a rise or at least we see a lot of publicity also on the internet against people people who have been beaten and tortured and driven to suicide and so this all happens in

a climate where russian authorities should protect their citizens and destroy the market but i see it as though he doesn't have an essential and maybe i'm going in circles here what i don't understand is why the l g b t people would assume the ownership of the winter olympics because the algae pretty community all often complains about being excluded or being shamed and this is exactly what you are doing now you're shaming russia on this particular issue and you're denying one hundred forty three million people you know they can't fit come together if you take pride in their country q you know enjoy the company of other people to see their humanity rather than making it all about algae bt issue well that's because the olympic charter says that the olympic games are for everybody with and . form of discrimination and you are turning the tables because you are now saying to me that the b.t.i.

community is claiming the olympics no it's to russian government who introduced homophobic legislation which courteous to freedom of expression for people who want to speak up in favor of homosexuality and of course people who are against that use does know now that your limpid games are being held in soji to highlight this in the discussion it's to russian authorities who started this and it's our right to protest against it and to say this is really wrong we would love to inform the russian public about all aspects of homosexuality but it's not alone because russian authorities said no this is considered propaganda and you are not allowed to say that on russian t.v. well if you are we are and. that that. is not exactly true but unfortunately this is all we have time for let me just mention that for the majority of the russian population that really looks like b l g b t africa to feel

that christmas but obviously you are entitled to your own opinion this is only have time for please join us again famed place time here on while the party.

basis with these economic ups and downs in the final months day the longer the deal sank i and the rest the life they may take it will be a briefly a leg. length

. well if you're going to like these new policies you know.

a pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm sure. we speak your language or not of the. news programs documentaries and spanish what matters to you. is a little too much of angles to these stories. you hear. in spanish find out more visit. was.

i. a day of bloody riots he's a month long state of emergency declared in ages at least two hundred eighty one people were killed nationwide after security forces deployed to gas snipers and on the dig is to clear protest camps. unexpected apology military bradley manning says he's sorry for the biggest leak in u.s. history sparking speculation he's being pressured to soften his stunts. and sitting on a goldmine no more the u.s. federal reserve loses trust amid mounting concerns that it no longer holds the mind of precious metals that he claims.