to cross out the ongoing conflict in syria i'm joined by george samuel in new york he is a fellow of the global policy institute of london metropolitan university and author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on yugoslavia and in washington we cross to jason isaacson he is the american jewish committee director of government and international affairs right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it i want to make sure our guests understand and our audience that president obama has not decided at this point time as we're sitting down to regard this part of a program to attack syria so let's please keep that in mind george if i go to you first hear what you believe is the most important trend you see going on in the arab world from tunisia all the way to as we speak right now with the situation the united states and syria what's the most important trend in your mind well i think the. most important trend is. obviously instability and there is. clearly

a wave of. uprisings in the in the arab world i think much of this has been fueled by outside forces i think it the origin of this is. what happened in. the later stages of the iraq war around about the two thousand and six two thousand and seven . when the united states decided that it wanted to thwart. supremacy because of the you know the shiites seem to be the dominant force now after saddam hussein there was a concern in washington that now iran would be the dominant player in the middle east and the united states saudi arabia and israel decided to. join forces with muslim brotherhood has these alarmists in order to. sunni muslim strength in the middle east and thereby.

iran and i think that what happened a few years later is the direct result of this and any the odd thing is that it was in libya they had actually pressured gaddafi to release the various islam is who he had imprisoned largely at the behest of the united states as part of the war on terror the extraordinary rendition program and so these very same people that got huffy had released and then joined forces with the united states and nato and sold to topple the regime and much the same is going on in syria where again the united states and saudi arabia got into bed with the muslim brotherhood there a few years before the uprising still plays ok jason it looks like intentional instability for the entire region it doesn't work out very well for american or western interests does it. thank you peter i just i might add

my breath is taken away a little bit by george's last comment so let me just provide an alternative explanation for what's been happening across the region for the last couple of years. rather than it being instigated by israel the united states and saudi arabia i believe what's been happening across the arab world since the very beginnings of a revolution in tunisia two and a half almost three years ago is something very different it's believe it's homegrown i believe it's a desire on the part of people who have long been oppressed by dictatorships. trying to find a. way where you claim you're again saying let's be clear these were dictators supported by western powers and the united states correct let's be clear here. you know the fact is a little more complicated than that i think that what we had was countries that that have never had traditions of democracy but have been reasonably stable

although frankly some of these countries libya supported terrorism syria as you know as long been a bastion of terror support i don't think it was a it was outside forces it was and it was mostly homegrown forces that led to the wave of revolutions that we've see in racing across the region now of course we're faced with a very very very complicated picture there are american interests at stake here there are saudi interests at stake here there are russian interests at stake here as well but i think what's important to focus on is the need to find some way of satisfying the the very definite expressed desire on the part of the arab people to have self-determination and to be free of oppression ok well then george then what about egypt itself determination. yes. the examples that we're seeing now in libya we see in egypt are seeing also to a certain extent unity or is. chaos

killings. extremism. george george george i think you outline your earlier point if you are actually taking please take you up in your early twenty's in instability who does that serve instability sort of who's interests here because you make an interesting point in your first comment well i tend to think that instability is the interest of the united states and united states has always been concerned that some kind of arab nationalist movement will become dominant in the middle east. and america's has always wanted a kind of a much weaker divided arab world and i think it also serves the interests of israel which an israeli nightmare has always been that there should be a united arab world in the united arab voice speaking on behalf of the palestinians so as long as the arabs are involved in this it was essentially was on

the i think. the americans of this rate is a perfectly happy not to mention the americans vast military industrial complex that thrives on selling arms to the various in international actors ok jason to be fair go right ahead where time to go to complete nonsense of course we're also we're you know appearing on a network that is hosted by a country that has made quite a quite a handsome profit from selling weapons across the region or here's a lot of countries in the world did make money off of. your saying something like that of what you know that you know would not clarifying it here these are transparent internationally respected of contradict it. i mean a lot of straits the united states sells a lot of arms in the middle east let's not forget about that also yes ok all right yes it does united states the united states does so does russia so do other states as well but instability is not in the interest of the united states instability is very definitely not in the interest of israel

a small country surrounded by hostile neighbors that have made war on it half a dozen times in the last sixty five years so no it's ridiculous to say that this is somehow serving the interests of the united states or the interest of israel stability as internet is is in the interests of both of these countries as in the interests of the west in general it's frankly in the interest of russia as it is countering other regional threats the threat of terrorism and very definitely the threat of a of iran getting nuclear weapons capability ok george. well i find this extraordinary the say that if america wanted stability there was always a very simple way to go about stability there would have been to avoid getting involved in libya for all get off his regime was extremely stable and a good ally of the united states during the war on terror the americans could have helped the russians to get geneva two off the ground work out and a peace accord in syria. the united states could have definitely avoided invading

iraq and destroying that country i mean if you want stability there's a very easy way to go about it and none of the things that the united states and nato have done ever going to civility you don't cause the billeted by invading a country and bombing it ok jason interesting point you want to reply please. it is an interesting point let me just let me say if i can stick this back in my ear. what happened in libya was not the united states invading libya is a much more complicated story you may recall it was an uprising within within libya itself against a brutal dictator the united states was a very reluctant partner in this international coalition the one about trying to help indigenous forces topple the terrible dictator each of these countries had a very different path of revolution very different path of transition and very different levels of success frankly we haven't seen a lot of success may be. what is the playing out right now in syria maybe the most

difficult case that we're likely to face in this in the revolution the history of revolutions that we're seeing across the arab world ok george maybe the each country has been different in their experience has been different but it seems like the outcome is always the same go ahead. yes i mean what else to remember all of these interventions have one goal in mind which is regime change the united states seized on the situation in libya in order to effect a regime change i don't know why jason says that the united states was reluctant and i'd say it was not reluctant there was a united nations resolution that said that we should do something to protect civilians no way that it say that we should stop bombing and lobbing missiles in order to overthrow gadhafi this was the united states britain and france together decided on this objective the united states has been hankering for an intervention in syria for ever since this. crisis started in march two thousand and eleven it

has at sri security council resolutions rejected and then finally it is seized on this chemical weapons story in order now now it can get its intervention of the ground the goal is always the same regime change use force with you with some insurrectionist on the ground in order to topple a regime that the united states does not like and so you know the goal is to overthrow the regime but of course stability is never the outcome is that he would always be instability all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on syrian state of art.

the bible says many times that god is the father of all. children. patron the orphanage says you know in time. my fellow. pastor. kindest soul in the world. can't abandon the child he knows that they wouldn't survive so he. dreams can be summed up in just a few watts russia and the world. we don't want any children to wake up in orphanages firmly believe that their parents out there every child spit up my

ego's. now we have a whole poking toxin in the blood of our fetuses which are brain because there's no blood brain barrier developed at that stage. we can with. the consensus. choose to. choose the stories that impact. choose. they were ready to do anything for their country. is to love the country more than

yourself if you join the military for any other reason that you're probably not going to have a good day they were tools in the hands of the state now they live remembering the past which is impossible to get rid of. the war. but it however good people do get hurt. hurt good people empty silent. but who'd prefer not to be sometimes i feel like. i should have died over there. if. i saw some people. there is cheaper than therapy. on our.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter labelle true mind you we're discussing the crisis in syria. ok jason i'd like to go to you when looking at trends in the greater middle east how is the relationship between the united states and saudi arabia a plus i mean this is a very very conservative regime there's ample evidence that it exports jihad it supports them and things like that i mean how can that be positive for the united states in the in the intermediate term long term and for the region and for the people that live on the ground it's a it's a complicated relationship you're right peter there has been a history of support for jihadist movements for. across asia that have taught. the worst kinds of lessons about extremism and intolerance and i say i'm

a tism as well as of anti-semitism as well and i thank you for pointing that out peter anti-semitism as well but let us also say saudi arabia is important energy supplier to the united states and to the world in general the saudi arabia has been supportive of efforts to advance regional peace has been also key ally of the united states in keeping a close eye and and the possibility of something more than a close eye on the danger posed by iran's pursuit of chemical should be of nuclear weapons and also its support of terrorism it's a problematic relationship but and. the result has been generally an important ally in the arabian peninsula georgie it doesn't seem like it's been very hostile to me it seems the more that are problematic to me that's a good story as well as go to georgia new york it's more than problematic ok when you let loose these type of people you can't control them later we've seen this

from the mujahideen in afghanistan to the present. yes exactly. was a story the other day that when the prince bandar visited president putin in russia he told putin that well why don't you drop us sad for us and then we promise that there won't be any chechen terrorist activity during the sochi winter olympics so here is a value in your saudi officials essentially acting like a mafia down. with the president of russia saying that well you do what we won and we want to unleash terrorism in russia and this has been the saudi game long it has been doing this for years and years going to various countries and threatening terrorism because it has the power i mean it has enormous resources at the disposal and it has been the chief exporter of terrorism in the world so there was this

fraudulent war on terror that we're that we've been waging and are still waging. against the very states that have had nothing to do with terror and have always been the the anti. saudi elements within the middle east so we've had the war against syria a war against iraq or both and against libya all three of which had nothing whatever to do with al-qaeda these were always secular anti islam is anti salafi as regimes the very opposite the weather was the supposedly which should be the allies and in fact weren't defacto allies of the united states in the war on terror and now on our targeted by the united states in cahoots and at the at the behest of saudi arabia the chief sponsor of terrorism in the world ok

jason do you think saudi arabia vision for the greater middle east is a positive vision go ahead go ahead you know. i find it. in an awkward position of having to defend the values of a country with which of course i have huge problems but but it's an important strategic relationship for the united states there it's a democracy deficit there's a values deficit there is a terrible history of support of extremism of various kinds around the world and of course in its own country but it is an important strategic partner of the united states in defending the gulf and defending other interests i wouldn't go beyond that i there is truth in some of what george is saying about the danger that has been posed by that country but it is an important relationship for the united states well george i mean at the end there's ability in that and that region and it's a vitally important energy supplier let's not forget that all we all know that but i mean values are applied for some people and values not applied not applied for others i mean this is that one of the reasons why the and i'm going to go to georgia this is one of the reasons why americans reputation in the middle east has

plummeted it's just it's duplicitous it's apocrypha see all the time all of the time george. yes exactly because the allies of the united states in this in this current conflict in syria before that in libya are saudi arabia qatar the various gulf states which are the worst regimes in the world and. which actually you know repress. political movements when they're inconvenient to them such as in bahrain at the very time when they were sponsoring the. fists in libya so what we happens is the united states then says oh well that it is our allies you know they they are there so they're very good for us and they said provide us the billeted in the gulf but they provide no stability in the gulf i mean the the goal

is basically to control the in energy supplies in the in the middle east and and this cannot be good for the rest of the world when the energy supplies in the middle east are going to be controlled by one bloc of powers and can therefore threaten the rest of the world with by cutting them off on the energy supplies so therefore this is something that is actually dangerous for the rest of the world and. ok i mean i think we all agree that saudi arabia is an important any supplier but jason. what about the fact that. the united states in all three of us on this program agree about energy but so he really looks at it through religious prism ok sunni against shia in isn't that going to drag the united states into making choices that we you've already agreed to that are not convenient choices based on our values. peter it's an extremely messy

world and it's a very messy region and the united states has very difficult options and sometimes very problematic friends but i think that given this very complicated equation that the united states has to play with and not just the united states i think that it's it's generally been on the right path of trying to support stability trying to encourage efforts toward political reform against corruption against oppression against intolerance but it's been very problematic and yes you know jason lies let me ask you not always been on the right side of that ok i agree with would you like to see an arab spring in saudi arabia and bahrain and in kuwait and qatar would you like to see that. peter i really don't want to sit on your program and encourage revolution across the arab world that's a democracy and putting we've been promoting democracy over what you see. isn't it all want to see we would all want to see we would all want to see an embrace of reform an embrace of democracy it's a complicated process and it's helpful when it happens based on foundations and

principles that are widely accepted by the populace and have some historical roots and frankly that's been missing and deprived of the people of the arab world for generations we hope that that can be grown in time but it's not going to happen overnight ok joe george where is that deprivation come from. i don't i don't see it i am it i suppose i see is how do you arabia increasingly. using again it's the islamism to topple regimes and to exert human the over the rest of the middle east and i think that is a very bad thing because i think the very people that the saudis sponsor the worst elements in the middle east they are the most extreme the most dangerous elements and these are the people that saudi arabia is using in order to. far more

civilized far more. advanced states and therefore the ultimate outcome has to be something that is very dangerous so we call spring. see that you know with the cannibals the other the running rampant in syria. i think want to go to jason. i think and an alternative reality and i think we'll be closer to the reality is is the other pol that's that's that's driving these negative forces in the region and that comes from iran and it comes from syria countries that frankly are very heavily supported currently and protected by russia but countries that poses an enormous terrorist threat and threat to the whole region to the west to your country and i fear that if we spent all of our time focusing on the danger posed by saudi arabia and ignoring the huge danger that

suppose well i don't know if i can go to your door and i don't see it as i don't see an invading any countries i don't see syria invading any countries i see them all besieged ok george you have yes absolutely i disagree i have. no idea george. syria was an ally of the united states in the war on terror i mean it was a very actively cooperating in the in the extraordinary rendition program moreover the in the same way to go this goes for iran and i don't see way we can see the syria what's the evidence of syria sponsors terrorism in the world i mean syria is certainly align with hezbollah but hezbollah is a political movement in lebanon and when it comes to. his neighbor i mean i really don't. eventually spent on his own extremely very has been extremely helpful

towards israel in the golan heights and it's created no problems at all for israel since one thousand sixty seven in the golan heights she said before i go ahead ok just a few wars in the background just a few words in the background but not recently ok just supporting hezbollah which is not just a political movement but happens to be a terrorist organization resistance have gotten out and change the city from jason i'm going to do this i hate them out they going to run through my hate to interrupt my guess like this one not everyone in the world looks it has been was a terrorist organization a small number of countries do aligned with the united states ok go ahead jason give you the last word go ahead go ahead. peter i just missed what you just said as well as a terrorist organization to the resistance that is supported by syria and this is not helping us helping our side helping our side right now killed his own people and you're saying that all of the friends of the political organization that's nonsense ok it's a political organization that really just it was a sham that go ahead ruin us as a result of the israeli invasion of lebanon and one hundred to one hundred thousand

is all i wanted to invade lebanon and then. the shiites the shiites in lebanon had been very pro israeli up until the one nine hundred eighty two invasion hence they are the rise of a hizbollah all right gentlemen excellent debate we had two great sides here many thanks to my guest in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time and remember tough rules. do we speak your language i mean some of the law in advance. or music programs and

documentaries and spanish what matters to you breaking news a little turn it into angles kitten's stories. are you here to. enjoy it all to spanish find out more visit actually dad on t.v. dot com. but he sees things that sighted people don't notice. he's deaf. but he hears things that most people never. think call him disabled but he's the world's first deaf and blind doctor of science. professor i think that they're symbol of. the great life lived against the odds.

it was. very hard to take. that back with that. number. one. the bible says many times the goat is the father of all forms.

i'm sure he told me to set up these children. and those mistakes in the orphanage that you know in times he just close by so nobody needed me. my fellow pilgrims hello pastor. my dad is probably the kindest soul in the world. one can't abandon the child he knows that they wouldn't survive a silly endures to the end any one dream can be summed up in just a few watts russia and the world with no wolf and we don't want any children to wake up in orphanages firmly believe that the parents out there every child speed up my ego's.

ok. i dave a crack it while going to take and you're all over jane edge a little while in the middle of the chesapeake bay on the virginia. county. rampage here all in the chesapeake bay probably one of the best there is in the phone call fred. this is an old picture of ten and your island before the channel was good for oh here. gone way up there. as go all. right here are some of it here at stone graves it for you this is a fruits that's what we don't want happen to change your all and we want to get some protection and make sure that we don't go into the chesapeake bay like uppers did in other communities.

as america debates whether to strike syria washington use the time to send reinforcements to the middle east and reveals more unconfirmed evidence by mean assad for using chemical weapons. radiation levels japan's stricken fukushima nuclear plants are now so high they're enough to kill a person exposed for as little as four hours. german chancellor angela merkel goes head to head with her rival any t.v. debates are to look at why neither of us one selection candidates are in too much of a rush to criticize the other. you're watching r t i lindsay.