hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle putin speech russia has formally presented a proposal for the disarmament of syria's chemical arsenal flatter me or putin has personally appealed to the american public and political establishment to give negotiations a chance in war torn syria so tough questions remain primarily whether washington can refrain from its habit of using brute force. to cross off the war in syria i'm joined by mark levine in washington he's a senior fellow with the truman national security project and a radio host also in washington we have paul martin he is the political director of

peace action and in london we crossed alexander mccurry he is a writer on legal affairs and a lawyer and gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want alexander if i go to you first in london. i'm sure you read president putin's op ed in the new york times how do you think the american president should react to it because if i may say in my opinion mr putin's op ed reflects a great deal of world opinion. i think it reflects majority world opinion if you go back to the g twenty summit it was quite interesting that the most powerful countries the countries of the majority population actually supported mr putin as to how mr obama should react the answer is he should welcome it whether he will of course is another matter but he should welcome it this is a way out of this crisis and one that suits mr obama as well doesn't it means that mr obama has got himself if he accepts this out of the very difficult situation

that he put himself into ok mark so obama should call putin and thank him for the op ed giving him an exit from a position that he painted himself into agree or disagree. i don't know they should thank him for the bed but he should think him for the proposal to dismantle syria's script chemical arsenal i think that's something that frankly the united states and russia can work together on that would be a good thing neither united states nor russia would like assad or any terrorist group that might get the weapons arsenal chemical weapons after assad falls the country wants that so if we could actually disarm syria's chemical weapons i think that's something both countries can agree on it's going to be very difficult to do that and it won't stop the massacre of syrian civilians which as you know peter i've been returned about for two years now ok our poll but at the same time we hear all this diplomatic talk what we know that there is evidence that the cia is sending in heavy armor now lethal weapons into syria so washington can talk diplomacy but on the ground it continues obama's drive for more violence maybe even

a military strike. right well as you can see it's a good step it's only the first step to get rid of the chemical weapons the but there are conventional weapons on the ground being armed either by the cia being armed by russia and then the rebels are being armed by saudi arabia and maybe qatar so we need to figure out how do we get moved to a ceasefire but we need to stop arming both the rebels. as well and. both sides. and that's the way forward historically the only way civil wars have stopped is through some sort of a political solution alexander you know this is a golden opportunity but it's a very small part of the whole thing because most of the people that have died in this horrific civil war have not died because of chemical weapons again a lot of people say this is a way for the americans they get their boots on the ground and then they'll change the course of action i'm sorry but that level of cynicism is present around the

world. absolutely and entirely justifiably so now if i may say the essential thing about the syrian crisis is that there has to be a negotiated solution there is in fact a possible process already in existence it's been there for a long time there's the kofi annan plan and the suggestions for a geneva conference what has been preventing that process from going forward is the intransigent demand of the rebels that mr resign as a precondition for talks and the support that intransigent position gets from scientists powerful outsiders including certain members of the u.s. administration now we have got to move beyond that point to proper negotiations what needs to happen is three things chemical design and there's a process already underway hopefully that will now happen second

a proper investigation of what actually happened on the twenty first of august and who's been using these weapons and third and most important of all a proper negotiation over the sort that has already been discussed many times which russia supports which mr asset has agreed to and which the rebels should be asked to come around to ok mark a very good point there but the rebels are furious ok i can't use the kind of language on television the way they feel right now i begin to listen to mr obama are they just going to get more arms from saudi arabian say forget washington we don't care what they think they have never played a big role anyway go ahead. kill the mass murderer that fog assad is removed from power there will always be war in syria hundreds of thousands will die new gives more of the refugees and eventually when hundreds of thousands are killed and millions more refugees syria will be left as a failed state assad will be removed but al-qaeda will be in control and that's not

good if it roger let's we're going to remember to tell our viewers that a civil war means there are two sides fighting each other ok unfortunately it sounds like you put all more than one side it's not all aside ok and this still is a sovereign country paul you know this is the big crux and then i agree and disagree with mark as i usually do on this program it's really about the obama administration having to eat its own words in walk back about assigned because if you're going to have a negotiation you have to have all sides and you know what one side is assad. i think obama is lucky here and ana so is putin and a saw the disagreement can go forward i mean they all get to kind of save face putin really couldn't stop obama from bombing assad if you wanted to bomb or did it look like he had the votes in congress and of course assad i don't think wants to have his friends bombed so this is a solution that works for all of them and then we need to focus on. what are our other guest said which is the one thing left out that's missing in the negotiation

is including all the regional actors including iran in the discussion and look sander do you think that's going to happen because it's very interesting a lot of different noises now about iran coming out which i think is positive but we have to confirm them but do you think the americans are willing to sit at the same table with iran after all these years. well at the moment they're not and that i think is one of the fundamental problems at some point i expect they will similarly i think it's some point unless there is going to be a military intervention in syria people whether they like it or not are going to have to talk to esad it's all very well saying mr assad must go perhaps he should but what you cannot do it seems to me is make as a precondition of a negotiation what might possibly be its outcome. the whole point of a negotiation is that people sit down and talk together if you take one of these

people out of the equation and if you take away the very powerful country iran which is supporting him then what you're going to get is actually more war ok mark would you like to react to that because that's called logic but called logic and politics not always work together. look i have no problem with negotiations i think it's frankly that if it had not been for the credible threat of force nothing would have happened here assad would have ramped up his chemical weapons remember this is about the thirty the time he's used them first he killed a few dozen now he's killed thousands more people to volunteer to be fair to other had learned in the free you don't have evidence of that yet we might one day shall we say if it isn't for the liberals back there this is what western media does we have the fear and stress through it's not true we don't know yet it could be true my friend let's see what he said he was going to say let's wait for that first the experts are unanimous about this let's be very clear about this not pretend that

there's a question he believes or only expertise is chemical weapons no they're not they're all politically and biased ok paul but if i could go to your knowledge about people did human rights also coach ok more they made a lot of the the let me go let me go to paul in washington here again negotiations ok i think i would like to think that most people would like to see the end of the civil war in syria maybe saudi arabia doesn't maybe israel doesn't but do you think obama now has the strength to actually say i've made mistakes we can sit down and start real negotiations in geneva in directly even how committed is obama. well i don't think you need to say he's made mistakes he could go ahead and continue to say over the use of force is what got us here if you'd like to it's only history will show if that's the case i mean let's let's be clear that these kind of negotiations and discussions about assad getting rid of chemical weapons have been going on for over a year so what pushed to happen right now the second we won't know until history

writes its books but it's going to be in obama's best interest to probably solve this in a political way and not use military force let's be clear it's a super majority of americans who are against military force and the amount of political capital that obama will have to use to use military force is going to derail his other priorities such as immigration and so forth sort of hit into his interests to solve this with to go sheesh ns and politics ok if i go to you again again mr putin did obama a big favor here if paul is correct well i think i mean are not an expert on american politics but as far as i could see opinion in the united states is running very strongly against all of this opinion in the congress was running very strongly against all of this mr obama has now been given a way out he's been given a chance to get out of this is to say yes our i've achieved something syria is

going to dissolve its chemical weapons i would say that up to now so far as i'm aware nobody openly asked syria to get rid of its chemical weapons but regardless of that that's where we are they have said they will do it so now we can hopefully move beyond this particular crisis and start to deal with the underlying problem and as far as mr obama has is concerned yes he's come out somewhat damaged in this but perhaps not utterly humiliated as he would be if the house of representatives as i believe many people think had voted to. what he was proposing to do all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to one short break out to that short break we'll go to mark and ken your discussion on sirius stay with our to. listen.

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welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle true mind you we're discussing the war in syria and rush's peace proposal. ok we're going to go to marc and because i always know we have something important for us to hear so go right ahead my friend. well look there's a number of different concerns in syria if we get the syrian government to get rid of its chemical arsenal that's a plus for the entire world it's a plus for russia it's a plus for the united states it makes sure that one of the last regimes that has massive chemical weapons will disperse and get rid of those that would be terrific

but wonderful result it also will show whether or not assad is serious about conforming to international norms if he does not and president obama can then go back to congress and say look assad didn't keep its word now it's time ok martin that's fair to him aren't clear enough fair enough but who is going to determine if assad is keeping his word ok who's going to do that well there are as you say there are international experts u.n. experts people like david kay and others who can examine the chemical weapons depots say that it's gone under the chemical weapons treaty the new one that syria is signing they already signed the old one promising not to use them the one they violated but under the new weapons treaty the one hundred united nations assad has to lay out where his weapons are where they're located how we got them and how he's destroying them let's see if he keeps his word ok if he can do that or international law with other all players involved alexander it seems really amazing to me is the country that is reportedly most concerned about the use of chemical weapons is a country that uses chemical weapons on

a regular basis i think you know where i'm going. indeed i do i have or what i would mention here and i think this is an important point is that international law is in for out what what is the key issue there is a legal process there are people who can carry out help to carry out the destruction of these chemical weapons these are technical issues the people who must decide ultimately if syria is in breach of its obligations is the united nations security council if you go back and look at mr putin's op ed today and if you look at all the various things he's been saying and which not just mr putin but many other people have been saying is that this matter has to be dealt with in accordance with international law not through the threat or use of force outside the proper system of international law which places the security council and the united nations at the center. ok paul i mean if you can look over

the last ten years say that's our go ahead mark but i was just going to say the u.s. of the last ten years particularly the middle east it doesn't really care much about international law or it twists a lot of things go ahead mark and to be fair go ahead. i would say that it's not that i don't care about international law but it's true they don't let the security council bind the united states when president for president they asked him specifically if the united nations does not allow the u.s. to go to war a vote against it or russia gives a veto would that restrict u.s. use of power and he said absolutely not we have in force international norms without the security council i think kosovo is a clear example of. just disagreeing with you on one of these things in a very violated go ahead alexander if you look the point of course of is that that intervention was the illegal i that is the large scale consensus within the international legal community some people say it was legitimate that it was nonetheless illegal now it is an explosive i mean you know the garbage they get

jenna's people starts sorry. go ahead mark genocide the international convention against genocide there has been a cleansing and cause of all there is a mass murder in syria alexander you want to the point well first of all there was no genocide in kosovo i think that claim has been contrary to be refuted actually by the events that followed the point to make is there are procedures right for that work can involve that involve the security council if the security council will not live up to its responsibilities there are procedures that might involve the general assembly what is extremely dangerous is when certain countries the united states britain to some extent france claim that they have a special. all rights which no one else has to intervene in those situations where they judge what they call international law norms being violated

now you know that simply isn't international law it is not what most people see except countries except let me go and i think that when countries are going well you're going to go to paul i mean you can't get abrogate that right exactly i mean you know very often the united states wants to walk away from the security council but in this case if the russian the united states can come up with an agreement with other countries involved obviously of course mr obama will go to the security council i mean again to kind of echo what alexander was saying just a gross hypocrisy when i mean the united states is protected israel from the security council sixty times or something like that go ahead paul you know historically we use the u.n. when it's in our national interest to use and we ignore when we don't want to. that's happened you know getting back to kosovo for a moment there are those who argue that our military intervention there actually

lengthened the atrocities and not shortened and it was illegal on a number of fronts it was illegal here cost. only. president clinton only had the provable from the senate and when the finally the house voted on it a month later it was tied so he didn't even have a congressional support for kosovo we need to learn how to move forward not only within our own laws here in the us about the use of force but within the international realm otherwise countries are just going to start attacking each other willy nilly and there won't there are going to be taken after the us that will happen when other countries get stronger we would not like to see china bombing certain countries just because a they think they can without going to the un or or without some sort of self defense so we need to figure out how do we use them my concern that's the way to move forward alexander first go ahead. no i completely agree i mean the point about international law is that it is in the interest of the united states to work with

international law international law the international system of law that we have today is largely the creation of the united states of american jurists american lawyers american diplomats american politicians they basically set up this system and everyone else has gone along with it because it's bad not an ideal system but it's a workable system and it is a system that actually works for the united states exactly for the reason it's the other internet you have to have. ok mark go ahead absolutely go ahead marc i mean there are dirty international treaties against the use of chemical weapons that syria signed there's an international convention against genocide and what all the great powers discuss everything with security council there one hundred thousand syrians dead last time i came on this program the top twenty eleven there were three thousand syrians dead mark my words if this is numbers off it will be another

one hundred thousand dead next time i appear and a hundred thousand after that at some point the syrian people are going to. get behind some math journal that are going to hear your market how many people should obama kill in syria to back up your words. he does not kill a single one i'll tell you what he could do and i have to be clear president obama's vision is not mine he set a red line only on chemical weapons i've advocated a no fly zone for more than a year now here's what you do you bomb runways and you bomb runways no one lives on runways but what would bombing runways do you know market i saw this line saw this little reading and i saw this really it's called libya did very well ok did very well it's all i think would be ended very well you don't live in libya ok paul if i could go back to you and what you think about if i go back to libya where time job i admit spherical you know me go back to paul paul what do you think mr obama is going to help the united states go back to international law because the last ten

years in the arab world without much international law is really tarnished the american opinion there it's empty the treasury a lot of people have died on the ground i mean is this a turning point for obama and i still like to say and i like to poke a finger did mr putin do obama a favor well like to hope so i mean the obama is a constitutional loyalist not forget and i would sooner have have the spec for law and i would also assume this is one of the reasons why he said he was going to going going to congress to get the use of forethought authorization but unfortunately you've heard from not only secretary kerry but now samantha powers and others that have been thumbing their noses at the u.n. which is unfortunate and we all know that the u.n. needs reform and there's a lot of issues around the security council exciter but it is what we have and we should use it or move forward with reform so i hope comes back to the use of law rather than the use of force alexander and when i was looking i

judge an eva two point two two point zero excuse me do you think the united states and western allies can get these radical jihadist groups to actually sit down and talk because like i said in earlier in the program they're not answering to call for negotiations at all. this is this is the fundamental problem i think in this it happened more than a year ago probably they would the trouble is. because the wall has continued and the reason the war has continued in the way that it has is because there have been no negotiations can i just remind people that last year in two thousand and twelve we briefly had a ceasefire we briefly had ceasefire monitors in the country and it was the united states that insisted on pulling them out but now the trouble is because that war has continued all sorts of extremely dangerous and violent people.

we all know who they are have now come and they are not going to be very easy to deal with or persuaded for i doubt that they can be persuaded at all having said that if we have a negotiation which does eventually result in a peaceful to a transitional government we hopefully should be able to isolate and marginalize these people in a way in a way that we can deal with them but at the moment when the war is simply going on and because people are right alexander. to get smart on a tour of the program mark go ahead go ahead last word i think there is a middle ground here and the middle ground is assad has to go and al qaeda has to go and the fact that we have not helped the free syrian army the fact that frankly iran and hezbollah and russia and saudi arabia qatar of all been involved but we just started arming them two weeks ago made to the moderates in syria get screened

i'm afraid we've been are we are as i am are there only for about a time many thanks so you know my guest in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember tom was. the eve of the one. wealthy british style. markets why not come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy

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coming up on r t in geneva diplomatic talks between john kerry and sergey lavrov continue over the fate of syria the world waits to see if a deal is made to avoid u.s. military intervention the latest on the talks up ahead and in new york a judge has ruled in favor of strippers against rick's cabaret the manhattanite club was sued for denying workers a minimum wage pay more on this victory for workers' rights coming up and a lawsuit to remove the words in god we trust from u.s. money was dismissed the atheist groups behind the lawsuit claim that having the phrase on u.s. cash violates the separation of church and state we'll tell you more about this case of god in green later in the show.