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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle what are the true goals of the surveillance state since the start of the n.s.a. scandal much of the attention is focused on government agencies and the deceptions and outright lies of elected and appointed officials but what about the communications service providers they appear to be willing accomplices in the state's vast spying apparatus have day in the name of the people voluntarily surrendered the right to privacy. to cross talk to surveillance state i'm joined by eugene per year in washington he is a national organizer for the answer coalition also in washington we have michael o'brien he is a blogger in altar of america's failure in iraq and in new york we cross to t.j. walker he's a syndicated t.v. commentator right gentlemen cross-talk rolls in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it mike if i go to you first in washington the latest news on the n.s.a.

scandal is that the. telecommunications providers telephone companies are quite willing. they gave information huge vast amounts of information to the n.s.a. without really twisting there is a risk to much second of all we have a shooting in washington d.c. why didn't the n.s.a. pick up on that guy but he should have been on the radar radar they have a vast empire to watch us. well absolutely your first point is all of the providers the service providers we're all reading about that all the time in europe and it's amazing because. you know we you know people want to cooperate with the united states government you know but then at the end then you reach the point where they also have clients all of these service providers have clients so with their you know where they draw the line you they want to cooperate with the federal government but there are they violating the privacy of their of their subscribers of their clients and then of course the tragedy that happened on monday here in

washington this past monday at the washington navy yard i don't necessarily know if it was n.s.a. per se as opposed to the department of defense's screening process which from all reports and all indicators failed absolutely miserably i mean it was a complete disaster on the part of the department of defense's screening process of this man aaron alexis the the shooter the perpetrator it just goes on and on and on and everyone is saying and i personally work up about a mile and a half from where that happened and it is terrible i've been by that location constantly and for this guy to have gotten a security clearance gotten it renewed just in july. run ins with the law over on lawful discharge of a firearm not to mention his being

a diagnosed at the veterans administration for thirty you know but like you this is what this is what i'm getting at i mean what do we need this surveillance state for if you're not picking up on the things i don't care what department is i mean they're all working together t.j. in new york if i go to if you go to you i mean is this surveillance state and in the vastness that we've learned is it really justified if we can't deal with these kinds of issues. well i don't think that surveillance state is ever going to solve the problem of a crazy person who can get their hands on guns there is a real problem in the united states and that there is what i view as a terrorist organization that has complete control over congress i'm talking about the n.r.a. the national rifle association they're not going to rest until every man woman child and infant has a gun and that's that's a that is a huge problem it's a little bit separate from the n.s.a. problem with respect to the major telecom providers willingly giving their information to the government these are heavily regulated companies so it's fine

for you or me to stand up for the first amendment the fourth amendment another. what about just saying what about is saying to the government should know it's wrong it's wrong what you're asking me under the fourth amendment and we've told our subscribers we protect your privacy i think it's very straightforward don't you think it sounds like intimidation is well the let me go to did stay with t.j. new york well you know let me go to t.j. the c.e.o. of a publicly traded company and you are aware fraid of the government shutting you down or destroying your business and you destroying tens of billions of dollars of market capitalization overnight so it's not straightforward if you are the c.e.o. it is daily for what is called intimidation will jump it is called intimidation head i mean i think that i think you actually are correct i think it is straightforward i mean obviously there are losses any time people stake take

a stand against a powerful state or a powerful force that is trying to do it injustice to people but certainly martin luther king and others who we say we revere in this country that is what they stood for so i think these companies are incredibly cowardly and i think it really just ties into what we can see i mean if you look just recently all of these heads of these technology companies and other corporations they all flew right into montana to do this thing with max baucus that was all about writing tax laws that benefit corporation. it's not about that they're really fearful of the government it's about the fact that these are a set of the leads who share the same basic values of the same people who are putting forth this national security state if you look at silicone valley that was the number one set of contributors to president obama so i think to act as if they're only acting out of self-interest or they don't want to go to jail as marissa mayer said is not true in fact i think they are colluding in this broader system that the elites are setting forward of cyber imperialism i mean obviously the shooting at the navy yard proves that in fact this sort of pan off to

conservations isn't about keeping us safe it's about if we say knowledge is power this idea that the united states government should know and be able to see every single communication electronically that anyone does so they can pick and choose who they want to target and who their enemies are it's not about security it's about cyber imperialism if trolling information to the benefits of the elites in this country like you want to jump in there and peter if i could if i did i'd very much like to some really good points there are some really good points have been brought up the last eugene i believe was the gentleman that just spoke and i agree with him and with you peter if the if i'm a c.e.o. of a major call it let's say i'm sure the c.e.o. of google i think it's a woman that runs google and she's the c.e.o. and the government goes to her and says hey come on work with us here work with us and if you don't well we're going to come down on you like we came down on microsoft she and others like her need to say well i'm really sorry about that i'm not going to do what you want me to do i'm going to do what's right for my clients

and i'm going to maintain their word their right to privacy people need to stand up for the government and not be intimidated by the government and the and let me tell you about this guy probably his contract different was such a shining eight but want different things people people want the government to not ever listen to any conversation that people also want the government to protect them from terrorist threats these are at crossed. purposes well let me i will take it lose thirty pounds. go into supposed to maintain my freight conflicting the government have supposed to go and take my freedom where it's i'm not going to come under freedom of the government you made your point my joy free you're not free to if i want to act if i get my constitution might if i go ahead can i say something and i say something head. i want the government to protect my freedom i don't want to lose my freedoms for the sake of the government protecting my freedom i'm

a student of history at all fittler pulled that stunt in the one nine hundred thirty s. he declared martial law and told the people of germany i'm doing this for your own good and we all know where that led to and i also want to address the point that was made about about the second amendment and about guns everybody hates gun violence like this we all hate gun violence like this but the expression guns don't kill people people do really is true you said it yourself the guy was a nut case the second amendment is all about protecting it's not about hunting it's about protecting the citizens from a tyrannical government case in point nazi germany in the one nine hundred thirty s. let me go to newday then we go to go to jane is on hand to go to see jeanne and why is the last line of defense this kind of surveillance state the united states has created stalin would be envious of stalin even never had anything close to that what is the u.s.

needed for that i mean i think the united states government quite frankly is trying to use this information in order to target those that have views of its enemy i mean right now they can say it's al qaeda but we saw during the height of the occupy movement the f.b.i. and department of homeland security colluding with private businesses in calling a peaceful protest movement criminalize movement so i think quite frankly this is a way like we say knowledge is power right so if they can control all the communications and all of the interactions between people over the internet and over their telephones that it gives them a tremendous amount of power to shape world events into the to the interest of the people who run this country a small elite who run this country and i think they're using this as an attempt to really have to maintain a stranglehold on power and the rights that they are eroding of people in order to keep this powerful system in place which is run by the pentagon i think it's very very scary what's happening but i think one hundred percent it's not about security it's about. securing the interest of a few elites against those who they target as their enemies who right now everyone can say oh we're against outside or against terrorism that's all good but when it's

peaceful protest movements then you know it's a whole other question and i think that's something that we should be very afraid of you know t.j. again if i go back to you it seems like some of the intimidation here because i'm a journalist and i don't always have the views of the u.s. government needless to say and that makes me that's a chilling effect for me because are people reading my e-mails reading my messages because they want to get dirt on me they want to shut me down and they want to shut down other journalists i think it's a fair thing to talk about it's a chilling effect the surveillance state. you absolutely should be concerned because there is a strong history of abuse in this country or at the tape recorders under martin luther king's bed where it was used to stifle liberal progressive political movements in this country so i absolutely sympathetic to anyone who says the history of this is horrible but there is a recent history of the rise of terrorism and the rise of the internet and communication it's never been easier for small groups of individuals to put

together a dirty bomb to commit acts of terrorism to cause massive massive destruction to major population centers and it's not just the internationally that worries about that there were a lot of working class people who died and generally i'm going to jump in here a for going to go to when they want to break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the surveillance state stayed with. the legal. issues. cretaceous free school or church free. month free. free. free.

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live. at the. i. think the whole thing over by the auditor is a joke that you know the price is the only industry specifically mentioned in the constitution because there spot that's because a free and open process is critical to our democracy albus. role. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and our trust several we've been a hydrogen lying handful of transnational corporations that will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once told us my job market and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem trucks rational debate and a real discussion of critical issues facing america by the book go ready to join

the movement then walk a little bit because. he is he just. used. to. say. the reason the police will not. sign is a. welcome back across the uk we're all things considered i'm peter all about joe mind you

we're discussing the continuing n.s.a. scandal. ok mike if i can go to you in washington again i mean there's a lot of people are talking about oversight but i mean considering what mr snowden has leaked and we've had officials in front of congress lie to the american people and to the american congress which is perjury and people have faced jail for perjury when they face congress in that way what kind of confidence do you have that they can reform themselves ok because they've actually admitted a lot of things in i mean this is how it works i think it's actually quite cavalier a funny quite amazing but you know what a lot of people say we need to have a church committee but if they have lied so much to us about what they do do you have any confidence that the going to start coming clean no no no you know the whole thing about the national security agency is none of this

happened until edward snowden blew the whistle and a lot of people say he's a traitor you know he's a jerk he's a traitor you know we need to hang him by the highest tree but well the thing about it is is is he is he a traitor or is he a patriot now sure he signed forms and not supposed to divulge things but the problem i feel is that he was sit sitting there every day at his computer in his cube and going we're breaking the law this is terrible we're spying on our own citizens and no sooner did he break the news that general alexander keith alexander who's the head of the n.s.a. and a west point graduate as am i. and of course there is the honor code you you know of but of course that supposed to apply efter you graduate as well and he lied to congress and i'm not saying that. others have said news reports have said that

general alexander allied when answering a direct question by a u.s. senator about spying on american citizens and then when he got caught he wrote a letter back saying i made a mistake well there's no talk of a presidential pardon for mr snowden but there's no talk also about perjury charges against general alexander ok and you know case in point back in american history the f.b.i. when i was a kid growing up it was the t.v. show t.v. show with effort zimbalist jr and g. man and all that well you know i just recently read the biography of j. edgar hoover and it was just nothing more than his personal private detective agency and the only reason he stayed in power until the day died literally was because he had dirt on every book well you know. the same to me that the n.s.a. has dirt on all of us right now so they're not intimidated and they're going to

they're going to face everyone down in congress that's what i'm betting. yeah you know i was just going to say yeah i mean it's quite clear i mean i wanted to speak really quickly to want to t.j.'s point i mean i agree there are many people who are worried about tax and terrorism but i think we've seen two things i mean one you know if you tell me to cook a chicken whether i break it or whether i fried chicken now they're saying well we have these security threats and we've created this huge thing and that's the only way that we can deal with it when in fact that seems not to be the case and whether it's the navy yard shooting or the boston bombing we see that threats continue to evolve and yet and still we're told that there's only one way this massive security state and so i think the whole idea that this is somehow necessary and perhaps that's not what t.j. was suggesting to stop terrorism is a completely absurd and i think that ultimately it's a way of really scaring people and intimidating people particularly journalists well if you release this kind of information look at what you can do you know not one person has been proven to be killed from wiki leaks only positive things have come from what edward snowden has revealed and yet and still there's this chilling effect that you talked about already peter i think is

a huge part of the use of this and the whole use of it an abuse of the word term in reality of terrorism which quite frankly is caused by u.s. actions in the world not in some vacuum you know every time we fire a drone missile into pakistan we create one or two people who want to come to this country and do negative things to the american people so we also have to look at that element as well t.j. you want to jump in there go ahead. well the question for all of you if you we completely got rid of n.s.a. today and no one in the government ever eavesdropped on anything but another ten thousand people were killed through terrorist activity on u.s. soil every day in your view would that be worth it there's got to be some value there's some cost benefit analysis i'm not saying we haven't gone too far in the end pro survey alun side but are you really suggesting that it just the only evil in the world is when government does surveillance and if other bad things happen well as on the way we're going to go i think. the problem is that they've been

saying trust us i think that's what really irritates a lot of people just trust us we'll take care of you i don't think any government that kind of power should be trusted and on top of it there are laws there is the constitution that's my bit mike in washington go. yes i you know good conversations t.j. your point just a moment ago often i would absolutely never say shutdown the n.s.a. and there are laws there are regulations in the end and peter and i were talking about this before the program it really comes down to two to the people that run this we need to have surveillance i'm not saying we don't need surveillance at all absolutely not the patriot act after nine eleven and a lot of people were up in arms over that because they probably for saw it would go too far now we're beginning to really think that it may be going too far and stay

and edward snowden. really i believe in my in my if such being my personal opinion proved it but the thing is probable cause it all comes down to trying to think of which amendment to the constitution but it's part of the bill of rights you can't you can't just go into somebodies house because you just want to search their house you have to have probable cause does the n.s.a. have probable cause to listen in to my cell phone conversation i can tell you right now they don't but if they are they're violating my right to privacy however if i was receiving phone calls from some middle eastern country that was on the watch list and i might be able i might be a reasonable exploit to expectation that they would be listening to that phone call but i'm not getting phone calls from the middle east nor am i making calls to the middle east if i'm talking to a buddy of mine on my cell phone they have no cause probable or otherwise to listen

in to my conversation and they've got computers that listen in to key words and as soon as a key word is spoken on the phone cole all the sudden the digital tape recorder it's plenty to me i got it right when he said do you do to me go to eugene in washington eugene i mean we all know. these things all of us know these things but where is the popular outcry where is the revolt against the telephone companies where we're i mean what i'm saying is we got to a tipping point now where people say yeah i'm willing to give up my freedom because i'm going to be sure that if my kids a call from the middle east they're going to get i'm. that's pretty insane i mean i think there's i think it's totally insane and i think there is you know some of that people really are i mean when there's this massive machine trying to push this narrative on you some people will accept it i think also there's just a chilling effect where people feel like they can't speak out because well we're all targeted they know everything they're going to take us in and then i think quite frankly there's quite a bit of cynicism i mean what we see consistently in politics in america not all

the time but certainly consistently is that people feel that politicians sort of tell them one thing and then do another which is why we see it almost impossible to get over fifty percent of registered voters to vote or to vote here with all the windows in it so people are alienated from the political system i think if i can get a word in here in your head t.j. that i'm doing is a big difference there is there's a big difference between what j. edgar hoover was able to get away with and what of barack obama or any political figure could get away with today there is it's just much harder for any political leader to keep secrets if someone was keeping this private dossier on you know whether somebody is a homosexual that would release that would get released and that would come back to haunt the person doing that in the last five years certainly since obama's been in power there hasn't been any credible allegations that he has somehow use this to go against his political enemies i mean that's the real problem people have with this is that an authority is going to use this to attack their political figures the way

j. edgar hoover did against anyone he didn't like and the the same technology that makes it available for n.s.a. to tap everything is also technology available to public citizens and private citizens to find out what the government is doing against them it's simply harder yeah but to me if i go to my cake you can still get somebody going to try to back down let us know unless i want to put all your even. trust going to my support of the occupy wall street but occupy wall street didn't fail. as n.s.a. tapped one of their leaders phones the problem was they didn't have strong leadership and i supposedly had built would that make it right for them to tap their phone whether it was whether it was what why they failed or not would it make it right i mean let's just be clear i mean obviously you say it's easier but you know drew pearson who had some of the stories about j. edgar hoover said later he wished he'd blown it wide open but because of the chilling effect he said on some of those stories that came out about the taps and

one of the big things bedroom secondly i think that ultimately we didn't have any and at the time i made a groove it was doing what he did it was mostly considered to be rumors and innuendo by many people but in fact it turned out to be true but even if it's only a question of hypotheticals the fact that this massive machine has been built that can look and analyze pretty much all communications that happen over electronics whether barack obama has the most motives or the worst of motives once you've set up the legal precedent and the physical infrastructure to use this sort of thing i think quite clearly that danger should override even a hypothetical some idea that well if we just have the right people running it it's going to go ok i think that this amount of power can only be and the thing about it is a long one great for you had michael going to be a last word go ahead and absolute absolute power corrupts absolutely and you could say you know valid point you know there's never been a q you don't we don't know of any case where barack obama's used anything against well you know i don't know about that i mean that is debatable i mean he has told.

conservatives and republicans the enemy. people that believe in the constitution's inflatable you know greenest and saddle ship the nation but here is the king jr if that were to happen today but the thing about it is where we don't hear on a good leak it to the right of matadors is that it would be. the cabinet is a could get for the ocean like that i'd like to be able to finish my statement can i please finish what i'm saying ten seconds mike of the matter is we don't want to go there we don't want to go there and the apparatus is in place that if people aren't sure. last word the it's all up to their the trust of the people running your government frankly i don't trust him on that point gentlemen clinton ran out of time well i did better of trust here many thanks to my guests today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t see you next time and remember.

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