with the averting of war with syria at the last second and the opening of some kind of dialogue with iran it would appear washington's neo-cons an armchair generals are falling on hard times ever since the end of the cold war washington has always been in need of an enemy talking to iran certainly is one of their worst nightmares so is there a plan b. . i would rather as questions to people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t. question or.

more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world. can't. show for asians or. hello and welcome to crossfire for all things are considered on peter lavelle twilight of the neo cons with the averting of war with syria at the last second and

the opening of some kind of dialogue with iran it would appear washington's neo cons and armchair generals are falling on hard times ever since the end of the cold war washington has always been in need of an enemy talking to iran certainly is one of their worst nightmares so is there a plan b. . to cross-talk what's next for the neo con agenda i'm joined by grant smith in washington he is the director of the institute for research of middle eastern policy and in san francisco we cross to bruce fein he is the founder and president of the national commission on intelligence and foreign wars all right gentlemen in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want right if i go to you first in washington let's go through the countries saudi arabia iraq egypt afghanistan pakistan the israelis the list can go on but they're not picking up the phone too often when washington is calling because no one's really listening anymore agree or

disagree. oh i don't know about that i think you know in the in your set up you mention the neo conservative plan for syria and a brick lall but if you look at what's been going on ever since the first hard core neoconservative doctrine for the region was laid down in the one nine hundred ninety six clean break plan you can kind of do a checklist for syria and what have we seen we've seen the syria accountability act of two thousand and three which severely limited u.s. diplomatic engagement with the country we've seen that syria. has not been allowed to engage in any sort of negotiations over the golan heights we've seen the. recommendation by the neoconservatives to netanyahu but implemented

by bush to continually have harassments an open attacks on the regime we've seen the diligent i'm ization of the country so you know there's been perhaps a setback although the clean break and other neoconservative doctrine is never actually called for open u.s. conflict with syria if you look at syria in particular those points i mentioned about one hundred percent of the neo-con ask has been met and for all intents and purposes moving toward chemical weapons disarmament and having the presence already declared he's willing to attack is is a way well i mean fran i mean it is this it's interesting what you say i think it makes it sound like success is defeat here bruce you want to jump in go right ahead . yeah well i think grant misses the forest for the trees the fact is american

people by overwhelming margins like four thousand to one i spoke to maybe two dozen members of congress after the recess who had consulted their constituents on whether we ought to initiate war against syria whether for gifts of chemical weapons or otherwise and it was that staggering opposition that caused the president to flinch and decide no he'd look for another alternative to avoid embarrassing defeat which had been of overwhelming in the house of representatives now the reason why this is a turning point is that in no other situation since the cold war ended has the congress the american people turn so decisively in vocally against this idea of empire we intervene everywhere around the world because we have some obligation to save humanity from disaster and that our national security interests are implicated no matter what happens whether it's burundi rwanda or syria or otherwise staggering opposition up until that time we were in cost of oil we're in bosnia even the iraq

war the phony weapons of mass destruction the public opposition remained rather quiet and tepid but here it was so overwhelming the american people want the united states to defend its own interests here at home when they don't go abroad to do your thinking on what inside the reduce everybody to believe this was really does go ahead as the neoconservatives plan for the region been at all florida and i agree with you that there was a massive uprising in popular discontent with the wars blood it's that wasn't the question the question really was has this driving force which has been mysteriously transplanted now into the obama administration with his declarations at the u.n. and of american exceptionalism in every every bit of bag exact carries has the neocons. servant of design on the region been thwarted my contention is

about seventy percent of that agenda has been completed and kind of the left over i are rebuilding to some extent israel's economy away from socialism and some minor points along the lines of the us israel relationship including lessening u.s. pressure over them but my argument isn't that there wasn't massive backlash against another ill advised intervention my point is simply that there is no indication that there's been any defeats of the designs of the major foreign policy drivers in washington i have had a setback by rather i guess a great prudent ok john i got one of. congress what's good is bruce said in san francisco good point grant and bruce in san francisco go ahead. now but i think that's that's incorrect reading of the situation grant look at the neo cons if we

view them as the voices of john mccain and lindsey graham they wanted to attack syria they want all more almost immediately to threaten and to invade and attack iran in the event that some national security surveillance says that they've got a nuclear weapon they wanted us to be involved in the transition however bad it was for mubarak to whoever was going to be ruling in egypt they want the united states to be there controlling the political destinies of all those countries including those in the persian gulf and in my judgment that has clearly been defeated we simply are not given the american public opinion and the turning away from the congress of this military projection everywhere to be held morally and otherwise responsible for the fate of everything that moves and proving the pressure that you know that the neo cons want to go in darfur in sudan and i think that that's

clearly out of the question given the sentiments today it's true that if you look far enough back there are neo cons gains that you're identifying but if you're projecting forward i think this is the turning point it is what winston churchill would call the beginning of the end. grant would you well i would i would disagree with that you're looking at one small victory in what's been a rise since pretty much you know the late seventy's one nine hundred eighty s. of hard core policy from this movement if you look at a single victory that was snatched from the jaws of defeat and ignore that all of the policy apparatus all of the political appointees who have been embedded into u.s. government all of that fund raising to keep people like mccain and lindsey graham in power none of that has gone away and the moment that they you know completed

your distracted there is not going to be another chance for an uprising if a fact simply taken the decision is no doubt many of his advisors had urged him to do that it wouldn't have mattered so i really think that the celebration is much much much too early ok bruce go ahead because i never thought of the ira he agreed i never see the american big role when it comes to this neo con agenda particularly in the middle east only when obama goes to congress do all we actually have an opinion out there in the heartland i do you know you can't extrapolate from what i don't see why given peter go ahead bruce go ahead. no well grant i walk right in front of the white house every day on the way to work and i've never seen a sign out there saying we need more intervention in the middle east in asia the pivot toward asia or all the lights not a single sign and they have a lot of bizarre signed on for their life out there and the fact is this is the

first time i say syria is an example the first time in decades where the american people vocally stood up and the president flinched and they said no by overwhelming majorities over four thousand five thousand to one and this was really to form across every single congressional district and we had members like nancy pelosi defending the president even though our own district was like ninety nine to one against going to war now i agree that doesn't mean that trend is going to continue forever because nothing is for dana in history but in terms of a landmark change in the sentiments of the american people and where the united states is going that was huge because it sends a message in the future to all other countries well maybe the united states is not going to intervene in the future we can do things well and we won't confront predator drones another military intervention by the united states and the united states needs to get back to defending let's give an example here that is going to linger on and try to green the world grant if the united states is going to grant

let me ask you why should grant let me answer the question so the united states obama won because of pressure from the saudis from the israelis they're going to attack iran do you think he's going to ask the american people always a good idea to attack iran you know that's never going to happen the reason why you went to the american people in syria because he painted himself into a corner you have to thank mr putin for this not the american people sorry. well he did pay himself into a corner i know something a maverick way was to marry i he heard it on a resume and whenever there's been triggering events whether it's the gulf of tonkin whether it's pearl harbor you know all of the groups that are lobbying for non intervention tend to disappear after a catalyzing event takes place and the region at this point is just absolutely on a hair trigger for that sort of thing to happen you know look at it if you really look skeptically we have russia which announced to the u.n.

in a report early this year that the rebels had used chemical weapons and then we have more attacks and then suddenly we have allegations probably provided by israeli intelligence that no it was a syrian government and to this day i haven't seen any credible intelligence anything other than assertions giving a clear idea of who did that now the next triggering event that just happens to fold neatly into the bigger goal of regime change in iran is likely out there the tripwire may already be set we don't know but americans unfortunately are somewhat the weak link in this decision process if you look back in history eight items including time gentlemen gentlemen we have to go to which you are praying for ron ask you that you are a brain i will send to you our discussion on the neo con agenda stay with r.t. . if you want.

pleasure to have you with us here today.

welcome back across the uk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle two minute we're discussing what's next for the neo-cons. oh ok go back to bruce in san francisco we were talking grant was talking about the american people possible attack on iran and public opinion so bruce go ahead weigh in agree disagree. i disagree with the idea that american public opinion rallies

behind the president a matter what the war cause and the manner of pearl harbor pearl harbor was quite different there was ocular evidence there clearly was an attack of the gulf of tonkin resolution that grant mentions that's based upon a phony fraudulent claim of a second torpedo attack that history shows that was known to the m. executive branch at the time the gulf of tonkin resolution was passed and was ultimately the american people after told so many lies about vietnam forced the end of the war similarly the american people experience in iraq and other lies about weapons of mass destruction and suppression of truthful evidence and so american people now are much more suspicious of non pearl harbor type evidence that suggests that we have an urgent need to use military force to protect our interests for example president obama saying well the syrians are likely to use chemical weapons against our soldiers someplace in the united states you know unless we make this red line retaliation against president assad which no american really believes that the syrians are going to be using chemical weapons against the united states and in

the future in my judgment the american people have been so misled so chronically about dangers inflating them a million fold in equating even al qaeda to the equivalent of adolf hitler has left and they were soviet red army and hirohito's as zero pilots that they become very skeptical especially at a time when we have a very very austere economic situation where we can't even afford with a seventeen trillion dollar natural a debt to go abroad and try to save the world for every kind of evil that we discern ok granted it's still you would stay with i look ahead i would like to talk a little bit about to be ran go ahead greg go ahead basically the premise here is that there's a clawing in relations with iran. and to me the idea of the two presidents of exchange leaders doesn't represent a thawing of really. with iran what would represent the thawing getting out from

behind the skirts of the swiss and actually having some sort of diplomatic representation into ron would be something in real perceptible as bruce would say. getting all of these israel lobby operatives and political appointees out of the treasury to the treasury department and putting in people who actually are career civil servants as opposed to political operatives would be good actually talking about what rouhani mentioned that the sanctions are mainly targeting the weakest segments of his society but at this point you know just simply exchanging letters and trying to engineer a handshake looks like box checking to me and i don't see any breakthrough whatsoever with iran these pleasantries are on anything overarching law love economic warfare the united states apparently hasn't ordered israel to

stop assassinating its iranian scientists are engaging in their hostile activities so i just don't see it i don't see anything frank ok bruce what do you think well listen i agree with grant by and large that these are largely ornamental it's like that at the paris keith conference over vietnam they agreed on they were state of the table in there and what kind of water should be in the glasses but little else but in my judgment the real crux of the problem is that we have a very grossly skewed and an even handed application of nuclear proliferation protocols for example the so-called gold standard the one nine hundred seventy nuclear nonproliferation treaty it gives five countries and five only the right to have nuclear weapons not based upon morality but just because they had big power clout at the time a great britain france china russia and the united states what does that look like we have four other countries now with nuclear weapons outside the new. there nonproliferation pact then that's israel pakistan india north korea and suddenly

now iran it's got to be a cause of war if they develop a nuclear capability where does that come from how come other countries got to have nuclear capabilities and no one's attacking them and saying that's a causus belli i and it's just a network of human nature you've got ahead evenhanded application i mean you have to have a dynamic i agree i agree with you and principle bruce but i mean what is even handed about saudi foreign policy and israeli foreign policy when it comes to iran grant well look the cat's out of the bag i mean the united states has not only failed to enforce a nuclear nonproliferation treaty it's allowed israel to obtain know how material financial support from various so-called charities in the united states to build the deadliest arsenal in the entire region and of course the answer to bruce's question is why the on the even added this well israel wants to have a concert in their region no country that is effectively able to deter their

nuclear weapons capability i would argue that the united states by not enforcing the atomic energy act and by allowing all of this technology flow to continue is really complicit in undermining the nuclear nonproliferation treaty which is probably one of the most important treaties ever pacs and that's you know again getting back to this exceptionalism where israel and the united states in this case claim that they're really not subject to any of these rules that's true bruce you want to reply to that go ahead but a grant i think that's a cornerstone that's a cornerstone grant of this neo con theory of international relations and projecting the united states and israel as the master races over all the rest of the globe and they're one of the debates that will answer as our lead in the most interesting there is to come around and we had words i know it on theories are under attack go ahead. right well they should be under attack but they've already been embedded in key u.s.

agencies one of the frightening things that came out of glenn greenwald's report on september eleventh was the n.s.a. saying its prime directive for the middle east was that the advancement and security of israel was the paramount to u.s. interests in the region well i don't remember voting on that i know a pac and other organizations try to put that link in the political parties but where in the world did that come from and i don't think were a disagreement saying that these are not american interests this is a gigantic cat bird has flown into every agency pushed out the egg of american interest and led a blue and white egg that is extremely self-serving usually secret and enormously destructive. interestedly course not and i think what they also disclosures showed that the the the n.s.a. was sharing all of its metadata collection and other information with the israeli intelligence services on redacted but i go back i grant i think we agree then this

is a at least a a sharp dagger into the neo con theory of of the world in international relations where we are we are joined by jowl with the israelis we do everything they ask us to do that's a cornerstone of the neo con thinking and i think that is crumbling and i think that's a very important turning point in the united states foreign policy i agree with that grand isle is crumbling because the the revelation in that memo was that the united states had passed on redacted raw and this a intelligence to the israelis you know a couple of months after obama was entering office so here he is entering office with his team freeing a couple of the lobbies people who had been accused of espionage and giving away to the intelligence on the american people this is unforgivable it's something that the americans should be uproar over but it's still in place as far as i know so i

you know i just don't see this week in the other than again the popular uprising which is fickle it might happen again it might not if americans could be supposedly disinterested or distracted you know there's no indication of any of any waning is this horrible agenda obama is implementing it alone at the rate i think i think i think they're going to do is grant is great and i think if he wants to because i started out the program you know i mean a lot of pakistani officials that i'm talking to bruce right now they don't want to talk to a bomb because of the drones and forget talking to anyone in baghdad because they could do whatever they want i mean give us the money or whatever we're still aligned with the rand the saudis where they're going to work they're working with the israelis that a new plan plan b. to attack iran i mean i don't see that the u. conn agenda is really worked out out all that well because it's been put in play and now the in washington is standing on the sidelines bruce. and i want to i want

to underscore you know perceptions you know it's like plato's allegory of the cave you know perceptions or appearances are reality and the fact is that a pack in the israeli lobby so to speak was vigorous and trying to urge congress to authorize war against syria and this was a huge defeat for them they were crushed and that sort of the demolished the aura of invincibility that surrounded a yeah it is and it's not it's i miss precisely with the change over time in the dark when you call a path out at the last minute and tell it to organize a massive campaign to move congress from a place that is uncomfortable to a place that's even more uncomfortable it's not going to win but that's not a show of apacs weaknesses that's simply a show of that it likes to and prefers to in operates more efficiently in the dark well we're entering a dark period now as the federal agency is shut down and americans become even more

preoccupied with the economy that plays into a pax favor a pack is not getting smaller bruce it's getting bigger and again i just have to i have to hearken back to this idea. of exceptionalism i mean i agree with bruce the neo conservative exceptionalism in this region is stating that israel and united states are above the law they don't really have to listen to anybody else well what other regimes have marched under the banner of exceptionalism imperial japan you know the volks movements there rose and we germany over nationalism we used to i mean i don't want to get the last word of the program i always go ahead thirty seconds go ahead yeah listen i guess i think grant and i agree on this score i guess the only point of disagreement is whether this represents a trend that's going to ultimately throw back at the neo con high watermark or whether it's simply a temporary speed bump for the neo cons and in my. my belief is and i'm up in

congress virtually every single day involved in talking about the right gentlemen i'm going to have a real beige were brought out of a job i think going to my door when the washington and in san francisco and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstalk . put it on your cultural phenomena like the main communally face i think sometimes

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of the the. ok guys welcome to breaking the sat i want to take a moment to pay my respects to a man named herman wallace who died today from liver cancer at the age of seventy one seawalls was a former inmate at the louisiana state penitentiary in angola and spent the last forty one years of his life in solitary confinement earlier this week he was released from prison after a judge granted him a new trial because of the unfair jury selection of all white males during his first one while this was originally imprisoned for robbery and moved to solitary after allegedly stabbing a prison guard during a riot he claimed that he was singled out because he was a member of the black panther party and organize protests against prison conditions now after years of appeals while.