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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter laveau in a recently published united nations report it is found that about forty percent of the world's population soon will be connected to the internet report praises the growing possibilities for commerce education and communication at the same time

their surveillance state grows in power and bread when we log on to the internet there are a boundless opportunities as well as for the powers that be who watch every move we make even read our thoughts. to cross the control of the internet i'm joined by bonnie precis sutton in washington she is the education director at wired safety also in washington we have gray mcgovern he is the co-founder of veteran intelligence professionals for sanity and in london we cross to jim kill locke he is the executive director of the open rights group all right folks cross talk rules for the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it if i go to you first in washington all the major internet groups from icon i can to publicly traded companies communication companies are all saying the same thing they want to free themselves of washington's influence in the n.s.a.

or they just blowing smoke and is that possible. what they need to do is free themselves from the money. people are incredibly naive in trying to figure out why places like the major internet companies and the major telecommunications companies cooperate with the government it's for the money and so unless citizens rise up and say look you know we had system in our privacy unless the younger generation and there were hopeful signs there the younger generation without whom government surveillance and intrusive techniques cannot happen unless they fold unless they just kind of give up the fight the people like james clapper and keith alexander are in deep trouble because they can't function they can't possibly fulfill what they see as their mission that is to snoop on everyone on the planet without the help of highly technical people who alas also have

a conscience witness edward snowden you know bonnie you know we've we've heard before all this happened with snowden i think all of us with more on it to believe that our privacy was being respected by facebook google microsoft eccentrics cetera and they give this whole story broke they were very timid about talking about their relationship with the n.s.a. and now they come out and say we want to protect your privacy why should we believe them now. well actually the whole thing is the public doesn't understand and most people i work in supercomputing when we start talking about how the data is collected people have a misconception about. the government listening to individual telephone calls you know they're doing data analytics and they're doing things like looking at the ocean in different kinds of things so there's a lot of big data the processes that are being done and people like those but what they don't like is the involvement in what they think is their personal life

personally i'm not doing anything that would be a problem so the government can listen to anything i do but there are people who want their privacy and like you said you're a journalist you want to be able to say and think and do whatever you want but all of this new technology comes with. that is that there is data that is correct ok jim it seems to me even though i mean over the last few months i mean even the last couple of weeks the n.s.a. has been caught lying still again to the american people i mean this is mr snowden is the gift that keeps on giving and we could see every time we can look back a few weeks ago i bought their line again to us ok i mean where is the trust element here because even if they even if we have these internet groups break themselves away or attempt to break away from the n.s.a. they have other ways of finding getting into data in any way will find another encryption process. there's a bunch of ways the data can be got out and i think one of the things that's really

surprising about what the n.s.a. have tried to do is that they've tried to find every possible way of getting data and always be able to get any information all of the time and that's extraordinarily ambitious and it doesn't really seem necessary or proportionate i mean given that most of the data the we create on the internet is in companies like google and yahoo and facebook think that just by having caught a system where they could go and get the. when they really needed it you think that would cover most of what they really needed but they've been so much more ambitious and. truly everything everywhere whether it's cables under the sea in the u.k. or whether it's contact books that they can get hold of via internet service providers or companies whatever whatever their method is they want. in whatever way christian question is well you know this idea that they are undermining the base

executor to technologies of the internet extraordinary because. i want to go ahead bonnie jump in go ahead. i'm curious because one of the things that we're in there saying you're taking the heat for this but we all know that other governments have surveillance and that governments are actually working with n.s.a. so it's not just you know state governments you know if you're among the you know what do we think james bond and all those kind of things that stuff happened way before the internet so what we're seeing is the blame is going for the things that are the privacy things but we're not talking about hell we're not talking about looking at the oceans which we agree we're not talking about when they're being able to track it and be able to tell. all the people who are talking about what's out there on spying and surveillance the kind yeah but i mean help i agree with you vonnie but if i could go to ray here the difference is the difference is i agree with you completely but great big difference is that the u.s.

government says we don't do these things and we keep finding out that they do these things and even more that's to trust element that i'm talking about surveillance for security reasons is a legitimate cause ok we can talk a little bit about that later go ahead ray. well the problem is this little thing that george w. bush said was not a word just a piece of paper and it is the constitution the united states now as an army officer i took a solemn oath to support and defend that constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic and one need only to go to the one sentence fourth amendment which says no people shall be subjected to an reasonable searches and seizures that only that can happen under warrants because of probable says probable cause and the particulars of the probable cause need to be spelled out in

the no warrants and so holo how do you justify. collecting everything on everyone are we all probably terrorists how about the particulars it's a gross violation of those three broad three very pointed sip elations in the fourth amendment so you can pass laws just as nazi germany did everything they did was quite lawful but their constitution was trashed and that's why we my colleagues and i and sam adams associates we feel very strongly that this oh sweet took to protect and defend this constitution which has no expiration date by the way that we need to speak out now because the government is very very clearly violating the fourth amendment the fifth amendment for again i made all kinds of amendments and it's happening under barack obama as well. jim you know the internet corporation

for assigned names and numbers i can that they're standing up right now but they have a beacon chip put the depict the department of commerce so jim i mean this is this is in the dead of the devils themselves to. i mean how do they work their way out of it and will the u.s. allow them to do that. well you know it is two things are going to come back to what ray was saying about probable cause because i think it's very important member that probable cause here now for america means your probably not american because the privacy rights that the extends to us. just don't apply to you and me side of the states if you're not been american citizen if you if they think you're outside the united states they have probable cause to surveil you that's the way they're saying it on the question of internet governance and you know what does that work in this question of i can being in a contractual relationship with the depart with the u.s. . state are think that's a little bit of

a red herring i think the really important thing here is that internet governance needs to be outside of the control of governments we need to be proud parents and it needs to involve citizen groups what they call the multi-stakeholder model that basically means everybody from companies through to citizen groups through to governments have a say in deciding how the internet works at a technical level but you can't have governments deciding that themselves because guess what they'll get all the sort of the things we've been hearing about from edward snowden they've been quite difficult to implement if governments get to decide how the internet works they'll build all that right in right from the start but that's what they're doing bonny i mean if you look at the united states they see the internet is a strategic asset here they're not going to compromise with n.g.o.s and individuals and small companies they don't like to operate that way. so the problem is that the level of. expertise is different in every country and different countries have

a different look at what back to this thing about the constantly i'm not a lawyer but i know one thing then you know states the subject of the constitution depends on who you're talking to but let's get out of it that's. i am not a lawyer but people interpret the constitution in many many different ways and one of them is to protect and so some people would say to you that the purpose of that is to protect and inform i'm going to last until i was here during the nine eleven i was here lots of people jumping from the building so i'm still my interpretation and my understanding in my thinking about it is very different from someone who's never been affected ok you know a i've often reflected upon how barack obama so next part on constitutional law and he's devoted his entire time in the war on the white house to get around the constitution. while he's out doing george bush in that respect we had people in moscow with me last week two

of whom tom drake and ed snowden have been subjected to charges under the espionage act of one thousand nine hundred seventeen the only person first person subjected to those charges was state yells for who became a hero so obama as he has prosecuted more people under that act and more people for whistleblowing for legitimate reasons than any other president all of the presidents put together and the most recent one thomas drake who was subjected to four years let me jump in here maybe i'm going to want to show our brakeman of that short break we'll continue our discussion on the fate of the internet stay with our team. you know leave the room.

one of the new poll shows common in washington d.c. making news all the face i describe you know about. the pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm roll researcher. cools salary. child legal rights.

to the. law. paying for the young girls cammo for the future hunter. between two and three hundred million guns united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. the causes that is the law are you know i mean this teaches them a lot of rough spots ability to simply come to pay through the eyes of children if we can do it for our children for our future what is the country will solve. real damage and complexity of this oil spill was not something you can grasp just by looking at dirty birds we have between four to five million people in this directly affected area of the coast and it's pretty clear why it's not being

reported because b.p. can't afford to have a reported all along the gulf coast are clean they are safe and they're open for business if b.p. is the single largest oil contributor to the pentagon the u.s. war machine. is heavily reliant upon b.p. and their oil this is a huge step backwards for democracy it's a step forward oligarchy carex it is toxic it looked like spraying in vietnam it was it was not a picture that either the government or b.p. really wanted to have out there i don't want dispersants to be the agent. this. is a. welcome

back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle your mind that we're discussing who should control the internet. ok jim i'd like to go back to you in london we learned over the last few months that the n.s.a. does not only just spy on people around the world it spies also on americans and when it comes to the united states they want to see everything everything and it's quite interesting when push comes to shove the n.s.a. has been able to mildly prove with circumstantial evidence it's foiled two keris attacks on the united states considering all of the data that is being collected so why does the n.s.a. need to watch hundreds of millions of people is it really looking after looking for terrorism or is it just watching to watch sake. i think there are two things

going on here but it reaches a change in power what is going on i think is that the. these agencies and politicians are very persuaded of the idea that if. there are terrorist atrocities and there's anything at all that they haven't done that they'll get blamed so they better just do everything possible no matter how inappropriate that is and i think the second thing that's going on is that the agencies themselves see that they can manipulate politicians in this way and if they just lay the possibility of the politicians being blamed put the dead bodies from the future at the feet of the politicians of today they basically get their way ok just to get in german frankly if i can i can i add to that jim can i add to that and think of all those huge budget while the n.s.a. you never say no to the n.s.a. when it comes to budgets remarkable how what you've just said in the budget issue

connects very well you started out with money i mean it's kind of interesting isn't it i mean you want to have blood on your hands you have to give us hundreds of billions of dollars and we'll do whatever we want with it irrespective of the constitution and consequences. well the head of the national intelligence set up in our country james clapper is a self-confessed perjurer told the perp he told congress what he called later called clearly erroneous things under oath his assistant or the head of the n.s.a. right now and also head of cyber warfare keith alexander has a long record of not telling the truth he lied even before james rice in revealed the extent of n.s.a. surveillance now alexander pretended that there were fifty four terrorists cases that affected america that well for oil that war for trade because of n.s.a.'s collection turns out under oath he had to it well maybe one somebody said well

possibly too well it may be that he was maybe ten it's nothing it's some somebody sending a couple thousand dollars to a terrorist group in somalia i think so their whole buncha lies here and they have to be lies because they're unconstitutional on their face and now i think people like patrick leahy and others are beginning to feel the heat from the people who don't want to be subjected to these lies if you're going to do this kind of thing you should level with the american people that's clearly what they're doing the president does he know is he lying deliberately or are they giving him what's called plausible denial him to do they not tell him these things i suspect that might be the case although i swear i would brock obama put him in the put himself in the position of telling untruths loathing see american people which he has consistently done during this latest series of issues well in ray you were in moscow last week and i'm sure mr snowden has some more surprises for mr barack

obama on this issue here bonnie i'd like to go back to gain you know we've mentioned the program and i think it's really important is you know the governance of the internet i mean is it really plausible that independent groups and watchdogs independent. independent watchdogs can get their hands back on the fate of the internet or do we have to resign ourselves that it's always going to be trolled by the n.s.a. and other governments in the world. the internet is now control but in this age the internet is controlled by the people who use it and they really could clear examples of all kinds of positive kinds of things that happen one of the concerns and i have that you mention rate you talked about the congress congress is elected that doesn't mean they're smart they know the constitution anything that doesn't mean somebody voted for them and they don't know anything very much to do this in to some of the legs of the ones who know the information most of the people don't know that i live in washington i sit in the chambers and listen those guys don't

know that you don't let them give them a brain ok so the problem might be one of them that the politicians in the adequate to understanding the informations that we start talking about data mining and data analytics some of you don't know that you don't know what the intricacies are that snowden did and there are people who do but there are simple technologies that help everybody and people all around the world are being benefit immensely and we will own the internet the people of the world it's like a big brain of the world it's just that some people have more access and more infrastructure than others i was on the national information infrastructure advisory council so i've been doing these flights before we don't own the internet it's owned by the users range but it seems like the internet is the perfect weapon that governments can use to spy on us that's what this whole scandal is all about and being able to do it against the law by the way. well in large measure it's the technology that's driving all this we can do this it's

easier to collect everything on everyone than to target collection it really is we had these great big warehouses where we can store all these little thumb drives so it's the technology driving this without any. to the constitution the united states to adult supervision asking well does this really help us prevent terrorist now it might help us figure out who the terrorists were associated after the fact but why didn't it prevent boston way to prevent detroit why didn't it prevent times square i mean those are those are questions that should be asked here these kinds of collections have no capability no capability of preventing such events before hand and that's the name of the game here jim let's go back to getting ownership back here i mean after the scandals here and i think we're going to we're going to hear a lot more in the months ahead i mean again i want to stress how to get back more

neutrality to the net because if from my understanding that was the great hope of the internet was it's neutrality in equal stakeholders here and we've certainly got away from that you know i'm not you know i'm looking at the companies just not n.s.a. i'm actually i have a lot more anger towards the companies for abusing the privacy of citizens and consumers because it's always easy to blame the government but these companies went along with it this is where the pressure should be jim in london go ahead yeah so i think there is something that they really badly got wrong and that is after the foreign intelligence and security act which gave the government permission to just mandate itself to do whatever it lights in the states for data collection and given what was clearly going on in the united kingdom where the regulation of investigatory powers act has been used to mandate to control you know the massive data hoovering just off our border. when when the companies started to realize that

that was happening they should have said they should have said very clearly our laws are not adequate to deal with the problems because they can be abused in the case of the in both cases they were kind of sworn to secrecy. and certainly in the united states this case you know they created a really cool regime where nobody can talk and everyone is compelled to lie about what's going on and that's what's created a lot of the problem but they could've said i don't think these you know we as companies are worried about how these laws could be abused and they should be reviewed and that would have allowed us to have a conversation without them breaking the law but in effect by not doing that they did go on with the government and that's terribly wrong it's interesting ray if i'm not mistaken twitter said no it still exists doesn't it. yes and you know going way back before nine eleven question one of those big telecommunications companies said no and what happened yes we did jail so there's

a very repressive yeah. and i think the repression of the conditions here are amazing ok bonnie you want to jump in go ahead i think the point the point that you're missing is that the technology is always emerging every time you do something it would create a product there are ways that change how the internet is being used and that's at least for the country to not just the united states anyone using i were yelling brazil some time the point where they're doing things that motorola every country has a stake in the internet because of the way it's used in the country and one of the things that no one is saying is that the things that happened on a good we don't talk about those we're only talking about so they islands and yet the companies collect more data than the united states does i mean all you have to do is google a wheelchair and then every five minutes you get an ad for a wheelchair what's that all about. yeah but the body if i go to write i'm not

afraid of wheelchairs ok i'm afraid of drones ok and that's what the u.s. government tad's re go ahead here. we had the previous head of the cia and n.s.a. michael hayden suggests very clearly that snowden be put on the kill list for assassination quite clearly by a drone. the height of irony is that it was snowden is in probably the safest place for him on the face of the earth because the united states is not going to violate russian sovereignty by shooting a missile from a drone at him or send in seal team six or whatever now what's what's happening and what's really bothering me here is the big lies continue dianne feinstein who are selfish complicit in this whole arrangement just lie. mike rogers on the house side they are complicit what she says oh if we had this before nine eleven it would have been prevented just the opposite is true and all one needs to do is go to colin

wildly testimony from the f.b.i. showing that it was a lack of sharing it was a lack of opaqueness so a lack of of transparency actually that contributed to the fact that these things weren't sorted together the dots were not connected stovepipes or in existence and it's just the opposite of what dianne feinstein is saying and she should know and she does know that he she is not telling the truth she is not saying i'm afraid we're brought on a time when nothing would happen like trust politicians here many thanks to my guests today in washington and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here and remember. the.

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