form needs to expand the mirror needs new lines of credit for. the last five years this purpose of nine hundred ninety five was made i mean this time what the public haven't really had the stomach for it if they were hearing this more and more acrimony about it as time has gone on what is the american general feeling about what their government is doing. well i think the political damage has already been done and although the g.o.p. or the republican opposition's going to be the first target of blame eventually or believe the american people will see this is a black mark on the white house you know the words the political gamesmanship ultimately despite the blame game over obamacare or anything else is really up to the white house and to the executive why the american people elect the president to avoid situations like this not to exacerbate them and time will tell is how the epitaph will be written well with some veterans last night the firmly blaming obama

for it who do you think responsible do you think the public should hold responsible more of. what i believe i believe that the. public is taking up more responsibility in engaging more in this situation more than in past years but really the ultimate responsibility lies on the politicians in washington both democrats and republicans who basically been involved both of them colluding to expand the size of the us federal government you just had the senators say that two years spreadable spending has been decline but what he's not telling you is that over the last ten years. spending has skyrocketed so that little decline he's talking about is a small blip in a bigger trend and it's almost like they have to keep running back to the same banks first for new lines of credit. you know the u.s. dollar has how it is held its own despite the sort of skyrocketing in the cost of

insuring u.s. debt but you know how long can this situation go on. just a final sort of funny but just slightly run in a top just fall thirty seconds because even if it does get through do it do a this announcement over the next ten fifteen minutes or so so it's probably only putting off the problem till early next year isnt it. you know you're you're exactly you're exactly correct i was going to point out there during the during the government shutdown president obama met with executives from goldman sachs and j.p. morgan we don't know what he talked about which is in violation of the and he deficiency of eight hundred seventy so you can see who really runs the country in the united states and it's not the politicians look at who the politicians go to during times of crisis they go to the banks they get new lines of credit or question is what collateral as the president or the government pledged to these banks for these new extended lines of credit is it new taxes down the road is it

asset state assets we don't know very good question to raise him forever but over time to get to a break but about two hundred. twenty first century thanks for that you want check out it's eight thirty two now coming up peter lavelle is guess a look at the global backlash against all online government surveillance we're keeping our eye washington as we get more on that will bring it to you crystal is next. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter laveau in a recently published united nations report it is found that about forty percent of

the world's population soon will be connected to the internet report praises the growing possibilities for commerce education and communication at the same time surveillance state grows in power and breath when we log on to the internet there are a boundless opportunities as well as for the powers that be who watch every move we make even read our thoughts. to cross off the control of the internet i'm joined by bonnie precis sutton in washington she is the education director at wired safety also in washington we have brain mcgovern he is the co-founder of veteran intelligence professionals for sanity and in london we crossed to jim kill locke he is the executive director of the open rights group all right folks cross talk rules for the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it if i go to you first in washington all the major internet groups from icon i can to publicly traded

companies communications companies are all saying the same thing they want to free themselves of washington's influence in the n.s.a. they just blowing smoke and is that possible. what they need to do is free themselves from the money. any people are incredibly naive in trying to figure out why places like the major internet companies and the major telecommunications companies cooperate with the government it's for the money and so unless citizens rise up and say look you know we had system in our privacy unless the younger generation and there are hopeful signs there the younger generation without whom government surveillance and intrusive techniques cannot happen unless they fold unless they just kind of give up the fight the people like james clapper and keith alexander are in deep trouble because they can't function they can't possibly

fulfill what they see as their mission that is to snoop on everyone on the planet without the help of highly technical people who alas also have a conscience witness edward snowden you know bonnie you know we've we've heard before all this happened with snowden i think all of us with more on it to believe that our privacy was being respected by facebook google microsoft eccentrics cetera and they when the whole story broke they were very timid about talking about their relationship with the n.s.a. and now they come out and say we want to protect your privacy why should we believe them now. well actually the whole thing is the public doesn't understand and most people i work in supercomputing when we start talking about how the data is collected people have a misconception about. the government listening to individual telephone calls you know they're doing data analytics and they're doing things like looking at the ocean in different kinds of things so there's

a lot of big data the processes that are being done and people like those but what they don't like is the involvement in what they think is their personal life personally i'm not doing anything that would be a problem so the government can listen to anything i do but there are people who want their privacy and like you said you're a journalist you want to be able to say and think and do whatever you want but all of this new technology comes with. that is that there is data that is collected ok jim it seems to me even though i mean over the last few months i mean even the last couple of weeks the n.s.a. has been caught lying still again to the american people i mean this is mr snowden is the gift that keeps on giving every time we can look back a few weeks ago i brought their line again to us ok i mean where is the trust element here because even if the even if we have these internet groups break themselves away or attempt to break away from the n.s.a. they have other ways of finding getting into data in any way they'll find another

encryption process. there's a bunch of ways the data can be got out and i think one of the things that's really surprising about what the n.s.a. have tried to do is that they've tried to find every possible way of getting data and always be able to get any information all of the time and that's extraordinarily ambitious and it doesn't really seem necessary or proportionate i mean given that most of the data the we create on the internet is in companies like google and yahoo and facebook you'd think that just by having caught a system where they could go and get the data. when they really needed it you think that would cover most of what they really needed but they've been so much more ambitious and. truly everything everywhere whether it's cables under the sea in the u.k. or whether it's contact books that they can get hold of via internet service providers or companies or whatever whatever their method is they want. in whatever way the

encryption question is well you know this idea that they are undermining the basic security technologies of the internet that you want extraordinary because. i want to go ahead bonnie jump in go ahead. i'm curious because one of the things that we're in there saying you're taking the hit for this but we all know that other governments have surveillance and that governments are actually working with n.s.a. so it's not just the united states government's you know if you're among the you know what do we think james bond and all those kind of things that stuff happened way before the internet so what we're seeing is that the blame is going for the things that are the privacy things but we're not talking about hell we're not talking about looking at the oceans would you agree we're not talking about when they go on being able to track and be able to tell. all the people we're talking about what's out there on spying and surveillance the kind of yeah but i mean help

i agree with you bonnie but if i could go to ray here the difference is the difference is i agree with you completely but great big difference is that the u.s. government says we don't do these things and we keep finding out that they do these things and even more that the trust element that i'm talking about surveillance for security reasons is a legitimate cause ok we can talk a little bit about that later go ahead ray. well the problem is this little thing that george w. bush said was not a word just a piece of paper and it is the constitution the united states now as an army officer i took a solemn oath to support and defend that constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic and one need only to go to the one sentence fourth amendment which says no people shall be subjected to an reasonable searches and seizures that only that can happen under warrants because of probable since probable

cause and the particulars of the probable cause need to be spelled out in the no warrants and so holo how do you justify. collecting everything on everyone are we all probably terrorists how about the particulars it's a gross violation of those three broad three very pointed sip elations in the fourth amendment so you can pass laws just as nazi germany did everything they did was quite lawful but their constitution was trashed and that's why we my colleagues and i and sam adams associates we feel very strongly that this oh sweet took to protect and defend this constitution which has no expiration date by the way that we need to speak out now because the government is very very clearly violating the

fourth amendment the fifth amendment for ok i made all kinds of amendments and it's happening under barack obama as well. jim you know the internet corporation for assigned names and numbers i can that they're standing up right now but they have a beacon chip with the department of commerce so jim i mean the think this is this is in the dead of the devil's themselves to. i mean how do they work their way out of it and will the u.s. allow them to do that. well you know it is two things are going to come back to what ray was saying about probable cause because i think it's very important member that probable cause here now for america means your probably not american because the privacy rights that the extends to us just don't apply to you and me side of the states if you're not an american citizen if you if they think you're outside the united states they have probable cause to surveil you that's the way they're saying it on the question of internet governance and you know what does that work

in this question of why can being in a contractual relationship with the depart with the u.s. . state are think that's a little bit of a red herring i think the really important thing here is that internet governance needs to be outside of the control of governments we need to be proud parents and it needs to involve citizen groups what they call the multi-stakeholder model that basically means everybody from companies through to citizen groups through to governments have a say in deciding how the internet works at a technical level but you can't have governments deciding that themselves because guess what they'll get all the sort of the things we've been hearing about from edward snowden they've been quite difficult to implement if governments get to decide how the internet works they'll build all that right in right from the start but that's what they're doing bonny i mean if you look at the united states they see the internet is their strategic asset here they're not going to compromise with n.g.o.s and individuals and small companies they don't like to operate that way.

certainly not and the problem is that the level of expertise is different in every country and different countries have a different way of looking at we went back to this thing about the constantly i'm not a lawyer but i know one thing then you know states the subject of the constitution depends on who you're talking to but let's get out of it that's i am not a lawyer but people interpret the constitution in many many different ways or one of them is to protect. and so some people would say to you that the purpose of that is to protect and inform and it wasnt it i was here during nine eleven i was here watching people jumping from the building something that my interpretation my understanding and my thinking about it is very different from someone who's never been affected ok you know ray i've often reflected upon how barack obama so makes part on constitutional law and he's devoted his entire time in the war on the white house to get around the constitution. while he's he's out doing

george bush in that respect we had people in moscow with me last week me two of whom tom drake and ed snowden have been subjected to charges under the espionage act of one thousand nine hundred seventeen they only the person first person subjected to those charges you know ellsberg who became a hero so obama as he has prosecuted more people under that act and more people for whistle blowing for legitimate reasons than any other president all of the presidents put together and the most recent one thomas drake who was subjected to four years let me jump in here greyhounds are going to want to operate and of that short break we'll continue our discussion on the fate of the internet stay with our team.

we speak your language might be rolling out a deal. with these programs documentaries in spanish what matters to you. we'll turn to bangalore stories. here. altie spanish find out more visit i two on the. old. child a little.

bit. more. pain for the young girls cammo for the future han are. between two and three hundred million guns the united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. the pass' out is they you know i mean this teaches them a lot of rough spots ability to think through the eyes of children if we can't do it for our children our future. home. please.

welcome back across the uk where all things are considered on peter lavelle mind you were discussing who should control the internet. ok jim i'd like to go back to you in london we learned over the last few months that the n.s.a. does not only to spy on people around the world it spies also on americans and when it comes to the united states they want to see everything everything and it's quite interesting when push comes to shove. the n.s.a. has been able to mildly prove with circumstantial evidence it's foiled two keris attacks on the united states considering all of the data that is being collected so why does the n.s.a. need to watch hundreds of millions of people is it really looking after looking for terrorism or is it just watching to watch sake. i think there are two things going on here but root is

a change in power what is going on i think is that the first these agencies and politicians are very persuaded of the idea that if there are terrorist atrocities and this anything at all that they haven't done that they will get blamed so they better just do everything possible no matter how inappropriate that is and i think the second thing that's going on is that the agencies themselves see that they can manipulate politicians in this way and if they just lay the possibility of the politicians being blamed and put the dead bodies from the future at the feet of the politicians of today they take basically get their way ok just so that you can jam if i can get your if i can i can i add to that jim can i add to that and think of all those huge budgets while the n.s.a. you never say no to the n.s.a. when it comes to budgets remarkable how what you've just said in the budget issue connects very well you started out with money i mean it's kind of interesting isn't

it i mean you want to have blood on your hands you have to give us hundreds of billions of dollars and we'll do whatever we want with it irrespective of the constitution and consequences well the head of the national intelligence set up in our country came to clapper is a self-confessed purger told he told congress what he called later called clearly erroneous things under oath. his assistant or the head of the n.s.a. right now and also head of cyber warfare. keith alexander has a long record of not telling the truth he lied even before james rosen revealed the extent of n.s.a. surveillance now alexander pretended that there were fifty four terrorists cases that affected america that well for oil that we're fortunate because of n.s.a.'s collection turns out under oath he had to it well maybe one somebody said well possibly too well he was maybe ten it's nothing it's a some somebody sending

a couple thousand dollars to a terrorist group in somalia i think so their whole buncha lies here and they have to be lies because they're unconstitutional on their face and now i think people like patrick leahy and others are beginning to feel the heat from the people who don't want to be subjected to these lies if you're going to do this kind of thing you should level with the american people that's clearly what they're not doing the president does he know is he lying deliberately or are they giving him what's called plausible denial him to do they not tell him these things i suspect that might be the case although i swear i would barack obama put him in the put himself in the position of telling untruths whole thing see american people which he has consistently done during this latest series of issues well in ray you were in moscow last week and i'm sure mr snowden has some more surprises for mr barack obama on this issue here bonnie i'd like to go back to gain you know we've

mentioned the program and i think it's really important is you know the governance of the internet i mean is it really plausible that independent groups and watchdogs independent real independent watchdogs can get their hands back on the fate of the internet or do we have to resign ourselves that it's always going to be trolled by the n.s.a. and other governments in the world. the internet is now controlled by in a say the internet is controlled by the people who use it and they really could clear examples of all kinds of. positive kinds of things that happen one of the concerns of i have that you mention rate you talked about the congress congress is elected that doesn't mean they're smart they know the constitution anything that doesn't mean somebody voted for them and they don't know anything very much i mean this isn't just some of them legs of the ones who know the information most of the people don't know that i live in washington i sit in the chambers and listen those guys don't know that you let them give them a brain ok so the problem might be one of them that the politicians are not

adequate to understanding the information is that if you start talking about data mining and data analytics some of you who don't know that you don't know what that into can see that it was snowden did and there are people who do but there are simple technologies that help everybody and people all around the world are being benefited immensely and we will own the internet the people of the world it's like a big brain of the world it's just that some people have more access and more infrastructure than others i was on the national information infrastructure advisory council so i've been doing these flights before we don't own the internet it's owned by the users range but it seems like the internet is the perfect weapon that governments can use to spy on us that's what this whole scandal is all about and being able to do it against the law by the way. well in large measure it's to technology that's driving all this we can do this it's easier to collect everything on everyone than to target collection it really is we have

these great big warehouses where we can store all these little thumb drives so it's the technology driving this without any heed to the constitution the united states to adult supervision asking well does this really help us prevent terrorist know it might help us figure out who the terrorists were associated after the fact but why didn't it prevent boston way to prevent detroit why didn't it prevent times square i mean those are those are questions that should be. here these kinds of collections have no capability no capability of preventing such events before here and that's the name of the game here jim let's go back to getting ownership back here i mean after the scandals here and i think we're going to we're going to hear a lot more in the months ahead i mean again i want to stress how to get back more neutrality to the net because my understanding that was the great hope of the

internet was its neutrality in equal stakeholders here and we've certainly got away from that you know i'm not you know i'm looking at the companies just not n.s.a. i'm actually i have a lot more anger towards the companies for abusing the privacy of citizens and consumers because it's always easy to blame the government but these companies went along with it this is where the pressure should be jim in london go ahead. so i think there is something that they really badly got wrong and that is after the foreign intelligence and security act which gave the government permission to just mandate itself to do whatever it lights in the states for data collection and given what was clearly going on in the united kingdom where the regulation of investigatory powers act has been used to mandate to control you know the massive data hoovering just off our border. when when the company started to realize that that was happening they should have said they should have said very clearly our

laws are not adequate to deal with the problems because they can be abused in the case of the in both cases they were kind of sworn to secrecy and certainly in the united states this case you know they created a real eagle regime where nobody can talk and everyone is compelled to largely about what's going on and that's what's created a lot of the problem but they could have said i don't think these you know we as companies are worried about how these laws could be abused and they should be reviewed and that would have allowed us. i have a conversation with them breaking the law but in effect by not doing that they did go with the government and that's terribly wrong it's interesting ray if i'm not mistaken twitter said no and it still exists doesn't it. yes and you know going way back before nine eleven question one of those big telecommunications companies said no and what happened your c.e.o. will be in jail so there's a very repressive yeah i think this is going to go and i think the repression of

the conditions here are amazing ok bonnie you want to jump in go ahead i think the point the point that you're missing is that the technology is always emerging every time you do something we create a product there are ways that change how the internet is being used and that's at least for the country to not just the united states anyone using i were yelling brazil some time the point where they're doing things that motorola every country has a stake in the internet because of the way it's used in the country and one of the things that no one is saying is that the things that happened on a good we don't talk about those we're only talking about surveillance and yes the companies collect more data than the united states does i mean all you have to do is google a wheelchair and then every five minutes you get an ad for a wheelchair what's that all about. yeah but the body if i go to write i'm not afraid of wheelchairs ok i'm afraid of drones ok and that's what the u.s. government tad's re go ahead here. we had the previous head of the cia and

n.s.a. michael hayden suggests very clearly that it's snowden be put on the kill list for assassination quite clearly by a drone. the height of irony is that it was snowden is in probably the safest place for him on the face of the earth because the united states is not going to violate russian sovereignty by shooting a missile from a drone at him or sending. and seal team six or whatever now what's what's happening and what's really bothering me here are the big lies they continue dianne feinstein who are selfish complicit in this whole arrangement just like mike rogers on the house side they are complicit what she says oh if we had this before nine eleven it would have been prevented just the opposite is true and all one needs to do is go to colin riley rallies testimony from the f.b.i. showing that it was a lack of sharing it was a lack of opaque opaqueness or

a lack of of transparency actually that contributed to the fact that these things weren't sorted together the dots were not connected stovepipes were in existence and it's just the opposite of what dianne feinstein is saying and she should know and she does know that he she is not telling the truth she's not what i'm saying i'm afraid we're brought on a time when nothing would happen like trust politicians here many thanks to my guests today in washington and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here on c.n.n. and remember. these .

wealthy british science. is not on. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with my next concert for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines. keyser report. the olympic torch is on its journey to such a. one hundred twenty three days. through two hundred towns and cities of russia. really fourteen thousand people or sixty five thousand killings. in a record setting trip by land air. space. torch

relay. m r t r t. breaking news this hour u.s. lawmakers strike a deal to stave off to fold and reopen government potentially ending two weeks of brinkmanship that have left the dollar more vulnerable than it's been in decades. defending its image at all costs cuts to tends to journalists investigating heroin conditions facebook migrant workers preparing the nation for the twenty twenty two world cup one of those reporters tells me what covered. the destruction of syria's chemical arsenal gathers momentum with international experts dismantling equipment at six sites now but it's no easy task in the midst of a raging civil war.