indiscriminate killings of civilians now of course this is something that many other countries like russia and china would dispute and i still would like to press you on this point what do you think are the crimes being committed in syria specifically by the. i'm sorry i'm sorry i never mention one you cannot have one war go from me talking about syria i say nothing nothing because we as a prosecutor of the international court we are not use external syria now but it was a ventilator i'll tell you holly down the you you started commenting on syria believe it was just last year and i believe we have a sound byte to prove that point when you gave the interview to c b c the economic canadian broadcaster and you actually called for referring assad by the u.n. security council to the i.c.c. and what you sat back down is that they are in conjunction with nader let's hear exactly what he had to say back then suppose the security council referred the case

the international criminal court and supposed international court preparing by minigames assad because he is a commander in chief and there are to declare killing of civilians there then the issue is east international movie ready to say ok we request not to to prepare another who aren't. and implementer who are on again assad in syria and he is enough to receive instructions i thought i would negotiate there now obviously syria is not a party to the i.c.c. that is but if you believe the un referral but i wonder why would you adverb bring major into the question because as you know the idea of nater acting is court martials for the i.c.c. is a total no go for both russia and china and if you believe in the impartiality of the court why did you need not a nadir in the in the picture ok you're maybe we're not all board or the concert

but i was trying to explain is that. we can use in a much more smarter way intermissions a matter of communal court but normally. people say ok but just recently you wouldn't have no influence that's why i would mention meeting forces if there is a prospect of an international community based occasion that would be enforce it that would be people we arrested venn that would create incentives to do it different was he asian a real negotiation to stop the crimes that's all the consulate to present is the pragmatic approach but mr moran our company why would we need to involve both the i.c.c. or possibly nato wide again because we first need to establish whether or not there are any crimes committed saw coming back to the same issue what could possibly be the charges against president bashar assad why didn't need to involve the i.c.c.

in the first place the driving in syria is there revenues coming in crimes but it's obvious that there are also members of the government of the armed forces attacking civilians and that is confirm it then we should investigate who gave the orders that is why dimension to assad because when you have the army operating you assume they come on the in chief also right that so i think suspicions that in the crimes committed by the government where top officials involved it is a clear suspicion that should be clarified and you better get it and i never say someone is guilty should be investigated it's an important clarification but i think the killing of civilians or the collateral damage as americans call it. in and of itself does not represent strong grounds for prosecution because if we take your own example you know when you are investigated crimes committed against

civilians in iraq by the british forces over whom you had terrorist action back then you concluded that indeed civilians were killed by the british forces in iraq and that thousands and yet you found no ground to go ahead with the. prosecution no let me correct you when we found the british soldiers who were involved in few we three killings and the torture some individuals but mostly were combatants so they were conducting national proceedings in some way because they signed a c c they know the british know that if they are not committing the crimes we will do it so basically what we found information about some incident what we can see isolated incidents individually people doing some individual crimes. was not a widespread attack against civilians and basically they conduct investigation that is why we did not intervene in iraq but mr miller and i come by i don't think we

need. any endorsement or any even proof from the i.c.c. on that matter that the british involvement in iraq killed civilians i mean i don't think it's being disputed i think it's it is something that even the british government recognizes that thousands of people in iraq were killed as a direct result of british involvement is that not the case. because we conduct this examination like seven years ago in those days information we have available for that was done that were isolated incident that was not there planning to attack a specific little civilians. doesn't it with libya when we meet again gaddafi we found evidence that the government for the world should concede billions with live ammunition on the streets we don't find the similar evidence in the case of iraq i would like to discuss the libyan case a bit later on but let's come back to the syrian issue which is the most pressing political issue here in the world these days i don't just recently you published an

opinion piece advocating of the notion of temporal justice for syria sensually saying that lads tell both the army and the rebels that starting from january first two thousand. fourteen every crime committed in syria will be investigated but i think from the point of view of both legality and international justice it's a very controversial proposition because essentially what you're saying is that you know we will go off to you for the crimes you commit later on but in the meantime feel free to have a killing spree and know that they did the following illegally today there's not enough for justice in syria because the goal of the first goal is to keep top crimes i was adjusting the proposed ok will be international justice from first generally. going on so that could incentives and even promote a different environment to genuinely go see asians to stop the run before general

first but doesn't that in itself to mind the whole notion of international justice because i would assume that both no government and the rebels should fill the pressure of international justice if they commit crimes now they should know that they will be prosecuted isn't that ultimately what actions are all about what the international justice the i.c.c. is all about it's great that you mention that because then you highlight the problem today today there is no possibility to intervene in syria because syria as russia has us has china as many other kinds of libya they did not ratified the treaty therefore they are not under the i.c.c. the only way to get syria under the sea is if the u.n. security council decide to do it as it decided to do it in libya so libya was a case where all the countries the fifty member of the security council decided to justice because libya was not member but it's

a good accounting of that by working both justice but i think it is also one of the main reasons why all those man all those members of the u.n. security council that supported the i.c.c. referral back down no longer want to back a day i think they're. lot of questions about the execution of the i.c.c. mandate in libya but before we go there can i ask you one question that is only conventionally related to syria and it is about a ugandan rebel leader joseph kwame i know that during your term as chief prosecutor you were very passionate about the need to bring him to justice and if you compare the lord's resistance army that operated in uganda and later in congo and the militarized opposition i think there are a lot of similarities now both fought against the oppression of the government both wanted to create a theocracy instead of a secular government both use child soldiers both were involved in clans even and

a serial massacres and in both in the case of uganda and syria millions of people were displaced because of that actions now the i.c.c. it was very firm on the uganda joseph colony was indicted and he had for some reason really almost never hear anyone associated with the i.c.c. calling for. a similar action against the syrian rebels i agree with you. to see them grows out committing crimes and they should be based again in the same way that they. were committing crimes they should investigate it i agree with you that the concept ok wrote recently agree but mr moran and company have to take a very short break now but when we come back discussing international actions in syria is impossible without invoking billy beane for narrow was it a striking success or an irredeemable failure of the i.c.c. well that's coming out in a few moments on worlds apart. to

lift the torch is on it's a big journey. one hundred and twenty three days. through two thousand nine hundred ton two cities of russia. relayed by fourteen thousand people or sixty five thousand killings in a record setting trip by land air sea an outer space. a limpid torch relay. on r t r g dot com. welcome to the. show thirty four can just bend over fifteen billion euros on culture that says thirty to one hundred fifty million degrees with the. fuel to

sell from st petersburg to france we travel in search of the song. knowledge we've got the future covered. place right from the scene. of the first trip. and i think the church. on our reporters twitter. and instagram. to be in the know. on law. welcome back to worlds apart real discussing the state of global justice with the former chief prosecutor of the international criminal court luis moreno ocampo mr moran a compass you always sought to present the us to see leave involvement as

a success and indeed if you look back all the un security council members agreed unanimously on referring libya to the i.c.c. you managed to start your investigation fairly early in the conflict and it seemed likely be of presenting a real momentum for the r.c.c. to reassert its role in global politics but two and a half years later i think all those hopes of reasserting the r.c.c. role have been decimated russia china india all those countries that supported the i.c.c. referral unanimously back ban. one nothing to do with the i.c.c. on the case of syria i wonder what and who do you think is to blame i was present differently in fact the western countries did not request as intervention in syria when russia veto there was no mention to i.c.c. but my feeling is the real problem in libya was not. the real pro was in the

solution. and the use of force valve was a divisive while and i think that was indeed a very divisive point but i think your own conduct in the days after the i.c.c. referral was also a major issue and i think many in this country felt that. you sought to convict gaddafi in the court of public opinion before you even had a chance to indict him that you put media attention before any legal proceedings and by doing that many feel that you were actually on to mind the credibility of these great institution with the case i took just the first ten days. when there were very clear cut situation where. forces were shooting civilians i collect evidence about six or seven incidents with four hundred people killed and i present this first case to the international criminal court judges and i got is

reviewing an indictment and. of course they're not the only crimes committed in libya because after my ten days. investigation there were months of an armed conflict with many type of crimes into the killing of south. we never start a case on that because basic what happened was the new wording was saying they will do justice now and in fact there is a debate if safeguards it should be pursued in libya or in the i.c.c. so they you have in the. eyes in the region be minimalistic but i'm not disputing that the crimes going to evidence but i would challenge your point saying that. they nischelle i.c.c. involvement in the initial events were clear cut because i wasn't been gazi in february and the crowds that were attacking police stations and the people military base there weren't civilians there were armed militia but moving beyond that point

what i'm primarily interested in is that the claims that you made later on and more specifically your claims about gadhafi supposedly giving its army sexually enhanced saying drugs to facilitate a systematic campaign of rape let's remind our viewers how exactly you phrased it we're finding some elements confirming this issue of appreciation of. biography by proof of. medicament. true showing the policy now they were buying the containers with product to enhance the possibility to rape you and. your siding strong evidence do you still believe that those evidence were strong i say. i say well we're trying to confirm that that the way in which the line started but mr moran of you may wasn't

a muslim this you from you made that statement before you even had a jury indictment mr gaddafi on those crimes you went to the court of public as the opinion but you were of the view and from the i.c.c. that shows your assignment of priorities i think. on this issue my concern was we in those days we presented evidence and we against i would have the evidence that the shooting. torture we have a season a geisha of rapes massive rapes but in a very difficult context because in libya families reject even to talk about that even gaz rape it could be kill two to call her the shame for the family so it's a very complicated very sensitive issue there no cannot question about that but later on just days after you made this statement amnesty international human rights watch doctors without borders and the international crisis group investigated those

claims and they all sad that they were absolutely no evidence for claims of systematic rape moreover amnesty international said that rebels at times appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence or as things that stand now at this point it was a ruse there was never ever any avid dance to support that claim and here you are as the chief prosecutor of the world's highest court you went public with those allegations and those allegations how to turn global public opinion against gadhafi look we have evidence we have it we in our investigation different human i watch and i mr national i believe we have better investigations we collect information that was showing us the massive number of group of girls who were that attended in hospitals with. some cases it interviewed people telling us what happened but they were not ready to talk openly and we had this information of biography

thing that was where i say i was trying to confirm in fact it was a marginal common idea that i became a b. headline i'm sorry for that thought for me was just trying to be. sincere saying ok this is the lines we are investigating and i say in this in this statement you mentioned i say confirming i would tend to confirm but why was. my confirming that's the that's the big the accusation against the head of state why would you go to the media before i let considering that you have then i'm sorry i did not i will say i mean there were many questions there was in the press conference people asking me what's going to read we're not why you're not investigating the rapes that's what the question i say we are playing what we were doing i never say we have it ready ok so that was the punishment but in any case the case with the about killings and torture were confirmed by the judges so we have

a case they can get after a very strong killings and torture maybe you have a case maybe you don't because i mean those evidence have never been presented in the courtroom and as i'm sure you know a good office son safe will islam has been held in detention in libya for more than two years without any access to a lawyer in addition to him there are around ten thousand other prisoners all across the country that are held in even harsher conditions on the top of that thousands of people on this has been documented have been executed in libya without any trial at all for just being labeled get off of oil is so this is the state of justice in libya and i wonder when you say that the libyan case was a success when you say that it was a good solution i wonder good for whom because success rate is the is term for it prancing in humanity or a genocide situation into chaos care with no crimes ten time better crimes against

humanity that's that's the crazy thing i see is not reform in libya into sweden or russia leaving is better now because as i said the crimes a very complicated situation but there are no massive atrocities. in this crowd as a result of that is when every human rights organization reports to the contrary there is absolutely no war in order in libya people are being killed off i don't see people being buried but the i.c.c. has never investigated or has never brought a single case against the libi and brought militia leaders come face justice. and we try to defy those who commit their wars crimes and it that way for us was obvious that this shooting of civilians on the streets was a consequence humanity after that in the who which are the groups committee must writers in libya was not easy in my time because i am

a conflict or thirty thousand people died i see this vision today i am i the news did exactly the day. but i believe this is a national government and there's a debate you mentioned you've got us the situation is interesting because i see no want to go to the i.c.c. he sees i.c.c. as a gandhi for him and that's another part of the role of i.c.c. as far as he's concerned it's a better of the two evils and i just interviewed his lawyer and couple of weeks ago i know obviously he still believes that the i.c.c. is a mickey mouse trial as he calls it but the problem is that the current state of levy and justice is so poor and that more people have been killed in libya since the i.c.c. involvement and since nato involvement than during the time of gaddafi and during the suppression of the pro of the protests that you just cited i cannot agree to court the court judges from eighteen countries because it's doing its job is

a very complicated job and a very cumbersome but the fact that saif gadhafi tried to go to the sea showing in using the wall is less primitive now because we have an international criminal court ready to go when we need it and that is an evolution that's an interesting statement because i would argue that the court is not ready to act precisely of the way it active in libya it's not ready to act on syria because of all the mistakes and all the political meddling that was conducted during the libyan involvement but can i just press you on the libyan case because given the state of justice in libya these days and the isis is still has a mandate overlay ban demand it wasn't to bring to account just gadhafi the mandate was to punish everybody who was committing crimes against humanity and as we just established crimes against humanity and maybe even war crimes are still being committed in libya do you think in the current circumstances the court has any

leverage the court has any possibility of bringing those two. committing those crimes to justice look my feeling is we need to take advantage of the existence of the court if people like you believe their see used were granted you might be committed by rebel forces the best way would be to present the case to the court send any citizen in the world has the right to send the communication to the court of course if you send videos and strong evidence the court should answer that so for me to say all you got to do nothing promote action in court you have the right to do it well i predict that if there were a similar position of orders i think you can do really because the court has just ordered faithful islam be transferred to the hague it has issued several warrants and the militia in libya they defined it was foreign sending there is absolutely no power in the world that will make the currently being authorities to transfer safe

to the i.c.c. so what's the point of even launching those proceedings when the i.c.c. is so toothless and powerless when it comes to libya is vengeance and you say that because for me the present today is in fact the national government libya libyan national government has no power to try to take so you cannot see who is still in the hands of the militia and that's a very accurate situation is very strange is a weird situation because who would have a national government everyone because nothing government but they go and look to the control even its own militias so if this iteration is so complicated and you side and you still side the libyan case as a success and as a past to fall when it comes to syria why do you think anyone should trust the i.c.c. the on on the syrian issue why should should china russia india all those countries that are poor opposed to the referral of bashar assad to the i.c.c.

why should they trust the it's going to be any better than it isn't in syria i'm sorry china russia never have. those reset of i.c.c. to in syria in fact no one proposed so china and russia veto was not about as you see was never presented absolutely but i don't want to go there on officials here in moscow and they would never even have such a resolution was they both in the security council for the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. russia would never support it precisely because it doesn't trust the credibility of the i.c.c. because of the whole libyan experience look i think as you say it's important to understand what happened livia and to have different views but russia has the log if they believe that in libya there have to be more people indicted they got percent information they see or in syria my proposer these recent months want to see they tried to use eyes to see as a way to these to a the commission of a new crimes because that's the main goal look in kenya today people are confused

about kenya the main achievement of i seen kenya was that in dozens of teen there was it before election in kenya and it's interesting that being they tease one direction and now what this is trying to do isn't where the press and the by president kennedy are indicted by the i.c.c. but let's understand i think the was a factor helping to cover it piece through election and i see it's not intervening who we have election while mr moran oh come president has pointed out every case that the i.c.c. got him itself involved in is very strange but unfortunately this is all we have time for for our viewers please join us again same place same time here and while the party.

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her choice. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. sheinkopf orations the day. we're not psyched to have active camp at guantanamo where patients are forces that . are strike. world's attention to the place that some.

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