interim the is what about that should make some fish an intervention and what happened is normally in the past the intervention was bombing or nothing bombing or do negotiation in conflict that you can on the sheet that's why we have to be creative and with define what is the proper way to solve this conflict that is idea just about. conflict i think your mandate at least in the past was prosecuting crimes and i think just last year you're very very straightforward about calling assad a criminal for what you called indiscriminate killings of civilians now of course this is something that many other countries like russia and china would dispute and i still would like to press you on this point what do you think are the crimes being committed in syria specifically by them you know or says i'm sorry i'm sorry i never mention one you cannot have one war them from me talking about syria i say

nothing nothing because we as a prosecutor of the international court we are not use external syria now but it was a ventilator down here you started commenting on syria believe it was just last year and i believe we have a sound bite to prove that point when you gave the interview to c b c the economic canadian broadcaster and you actually called for referring assad by the un security council to the i.c.c. and what you sad baghdad is that the i.c.c. should act in conjunction with mater let's hear exactly what he had to say back then suppose the security council referred the case the international criminal court and supposed international court preparing by minigames assad because he is a commander in chief and there are absolutely clear killing of civilians there then the issue is east international media ready to say ok we request not to

to prepare another who aren't. an implementor who on again assad in syria and he did not receive instructions assad would negotiate there now obviously syria is not a party to the i.c.c. that ok if you believe the un referral but i wonder why would you adverb bring nader into the question because as you know the idea of nader acting as court martials for the i.c.c. is a total no go for both russia and china and if you believe in the impartiality of the court while good you need not and they go in the in the picture ok maybe we need not feel bored or the concert i was trying to explain is. we can use in a much more smarter way into a major international criminal court but normally. people say ok but just additions you wouldn't have no influence that's why i would mention me to the forces if there

is a prospect of an international criminal investigation that would be enforce it that would be people we arrested vend that would create incentives to do a different location a real negotiation to stop the crimes that's all the consulate to present is the pragmatic approach but mr moran the company why would we need to involve both the i.c.c. or possibly nato what again because we first need to establish whether or not there are any crimes committed saw coming back to the same issue watt could possibly be the charges against president bashar assad why didn't need to involve the i.c.c. in the first place the drawing in syria is there reference committing crimes but it's obvious that there are also members of the government of their armed forces attacking civilians and that is confirm it then we should that they investigate who gave the orders that is why dimension to assad because when you have the army

operating you assume the come on the in chief also right that so i think suspicions that in the crimes committed by the government where top officials involved it is a clear suspicion that should be clarified and you better get it and i never say someone is guilty should be investigated it's an important clarification but i think the killing of civilians or the collateral damage as americans call it. in and of itself does not represent strong grounds for prosecution because if we take your own example you know when you were investigated crimes committed against civilians in iraq by the british forces over whom you had to raise the action back then you concluded that indeed civilians were killed by the british forces in iraq and that thousands and yet you found no ground to go ahead with the. prosecution no let me correct you what we found the british saw. a few weeks with killings

and. torture some individuals but mostly were combatants so they were conducting national proceedings in some way because they signed as you see they know the british know that if they are not committing the crimes we will do it so basically what we found information about some incident what we can see isolated incidents individually people doing some individual crimes. was not a widespread attack against civilians and basically they conduct investigation that is why we did not intervene in iraq but mr miller and i come by i don't think we need. any endorsement or any even proof from the i.c.c. on that matter that the british involvement in iraq killed civilians i mean i don't think it's being disputed i think it's it is something that even the british government recognises that thousands of people in iraq were killed as a direct result of british involvement is that not the case that. this was we

conduct this examination like seven years ago in those days information we have available for that was that there were isolated incident there was not a planning to attack a specific little civilians and that's a different with libya when we meet again gaddafi we found evidence that they got us before the war should concede billions with live ammunition on the streets we don't find the similar evidence in the case of iraq i would like to discuss the libyan case a bit later on but let's come back to the syrian issue which is the most pressing geopolitical issue in the world these days i don't just recently you published an opinion piece advocating the notion of temporal justice for syria sensually saying about let's tell both the army and the rebels that starting from january first two thousand. every crime committed in syria will be investigated but i think from the point of view of both legality and international justice it's

a very controversial proposition because essentially what you're saying is that you know we will go off to you for the crimes you commit later on but in the meantime feel free to have killing spree know the idea is the following legally today there is not enough for justice in syria because the goal the first goal is to keep top crimes i was just saying that the proposed ok would be international justice from first generally. going on so that create incentives and even promote a different environment to jeannie where they don't see asians to stop the grunts before general first but doesn't that in itself undermine the whole notion of international justice because i would assume that both know yesod government and the rebels should fill the pressure of international justice if they commit crimes now they should know that they will be prosecuted isn't that ultimately what actions are all about what the international justice the i.c.c.

is all about is great that you mention that because then you have a like the problem today today there is no possibility to intervene in syria because syria has russia as us china as many other kinds of libya they did not ratify the treaty therefore they are not under the i.c.c. the only way to get syria out under the sea is if the u.n. security council decide to do it as it decided to do it in libya so libya was a case where all the countries the fifty member of the security council decided to justice because libya was not member but to give the can together by working both justice but i think it is also one of the main reasons why all those manned all those members of the u.n. security council that supported the i.c.c. referral back down no longer want to back a day i think there lot are a. lot of questions about the execution of the i.c.c. mandate in libya but before we go there can i ask you one question that is only

conventionally related to syria and it is about a ugandan rebel leader joseph kwame i know that during your term as chief prosecutor you were very passionate about the need to bring him to justice and if you compare the lord's resistance army that operated in uganda and later in congo and the militarized opposition i think there are a lot of similarities now both fought against the oppression of the government both wanted to create a theocracy instead of a secular government both use child soldiers both were involved in clans even and a serial massacres and in both in the case of uganda and syria millions of people were displaced because of that actions now of the i.c.c. it was very firm on the uganda joseph colony was indicted and he had for some reason really almost never hear anyone associated with the i.c.c.

calling for. similar action against the syrian rebels i agree with you. to see them grows out committing crimes and they should be based again in the same way that this libyan rebels were committing crimes they should be investigated i agree with you that the concept ok wrote recently agree but mr moore and company have to take a very short break now but when we come back discussing international actions and fear is impossible without invoking billy beyond finale was it a striking success or an irredeemable failure of the i.c.c. well that's coming out in a few moments on worlds apart. free transport charges free. range month free risk free studio time

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on law. welcome back to worlds apart a real discussing the state of global justice with the former chief prosecutor of the international criminal court luis moreno ocampo mr moran accomplice you always sought to present the us to see leave involvement as a success and indeed if you look back all the un security council members agreed unanimously on referring libya to the i.c.c. you managed to start your investigation fairly early in the conflict and it seemed likely be of presenting a real momentum for the r.c.c. to reassert its role in global politics but two and a half years later i think all those hopes of reasserting the r.c.c. role have been decimated russia china india all those countries that supported the

i.c.c. referral unanimously back ban. one nothing to do with the i.c.c. on the case of syria i wonder what and who do you think is to blame i was present differently in fact the western countries did not as intervention in syria when russia veto there was no mention to i.c.c. but my feeling is. libya was not. in the following the solution. in the use of force valve was a divisive while and i think that was indeed a very divisive point but i think your own conduct in the days after the i.c.c. referral was also a major issue and i think many in this country felt that. you sought to convict gaddafi in the court of public opinion before you even had a chance to indict him that you put media attention before any legal proceedings

and by doing that many feel that you were actually on to mind the credibility of these great institution with the case i took just the first ten days. when the with a very clear cut situation where. forces were shooting civilians i collect evidence about six or seven incidents with four hundred people killed and i present this first case to the international criminal court judges and i got review an indictment on him of course they're not the only crimes committed in libya because after my ten days. investigation there were months of an armed conflict with many type of crimes into the killing of south. we never start the case on that because they see what's happening with the new world and we're saying they will do justice now and in fact there is a debate about it should be decided in libya or in the i.c.c.

so there you have this done eyes intervention should be minimalistic but i'm not disputing that the crimes going to evidence but i would challenge your point saying that. they initially i.c.c. involvement in the initial events were clear cut because i wasn't been gazi in february and the crowds that were at tacking police stations and could keep a military base there weren't civilians there were armed militia but moving beyond that point what i'm primarily interested in is that big claims that you made later on and more specifically your claims about gaddafi supposedly giving its army sexually enhanced saying drugs to facilitate a systematic campaign of rape let's remind our viewers how exactly you phrased it we are finding some elements confirming this issue of appreciation of. biography by

proof of. medicament. true showing the policy now they were buying the containers with product to enhance the possibility to rape you and. your siding strong evidence do you still believe that those evidence were strong i say i said. i say we're trying to confirm that that's the way in which the line started but mr moran amberley you say wasn't a muslim this ng from you made that statement before you even had a jury indictment mr gaddafi on those crimes you went to the court of public opinion but you're the one from the i.c.c. that shows your assignment of priorities i think. on this issue my concern was we in those days we presented evidence and we against i would have the evidence that the shooting. torture we have seen is a leg asians of rapes massive rapes but in

a very difficult context because in libya families reject even to talk about that even gaz rape it could be kill two to call her the shame for the family so it's a very complicated very sensitive issue there no cannot question about that but later on just days after you made this statement amnesty international human rights watch doctors without borders and the international crisis group investigated those claims and they all sad that they were absolutely no evidence for claims of systematic rape moreover amnesty international said that rebels a times appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence or as things that stand now at this point it was a ruse there was never ever any avid dance to support that claim and here you are as the chief prosecutor of the world's highest court you went public rebuild the legations and those allegations help to turn global public opinion against gadhafi

look we have evidence we have it in our investigation different human i watch and i mr national i believe we have better investigations we collect information that the worst showing us the massive number of a guest with it attended in hospitals with. some cases it interviewed people telling us what happened but they were not ready to talk openly and we had this information of biography thing that was where i say i was trying to confirm in fact it was a marginal common indeed i became it being headlined i'm sorry for that for me was just trying to be. sincere saying ok this is the lines we are investigating and i say in this in this statement you mentioned i say confirming i would tend to confirm but why was. my confirming that's the that's the big the accusation against the head of state why would you go to the media before considering that you have

the i'm sorry i did not i will say there were many questions there was in a press conference people asking me what's coming with the raid why not why you're not investigating the rapes that's what the question i say we are and i playing what we were doing i never say we have it ready ok so that was the relation but in any case the case with the about killings and torture were confirmed by the judges so we have a case they can get after a very strong on killings and torture maybe you have a case maybe you don't because i mean those those evidence have never been presented in the courtroom and as i'm sure you know a good office son safe will islam has been held in detention in libya for more than two years without any access to a lawyer in addition to him there are around ten thousand other prisoners all across the country that are held in even harsher conditions on the top of that thousands of people on this has been documented have been executed in libya without

any trial at all for just being labeled get off a loyalist this is the state of justice in libya and i wonder when you say that the libyan case was a success when you say that it was a good solution i wonder good for whom because success rate is the is term for it prancing in the against humanity or genocide situation into chaos care with no crimes ten times with crimes against humanity that's that's the crazy thing i see is not transforming libya into sweden or russia. is better now because as i said the crimes a very complicated situation but there are no massive atrocities. in this sense is a crime as a result of the trust that is when every human rights organization reports to the contrary there is absolutely no war in order in libya people are being killed all those people being buried but the i.c.c.

has never investigated or has never brought a single case against the libi and brought militia leaders can face justice. and it will try to defy those who commit their wars crimes and it that way for us was obvious that this shooting of civilians on the streets was a consequence humanity after that who which are the groups committee must react as in libya was not easy in my time because i am a conflict where thirty thousand people died i see this vision today i am i the news did exactly the day. but i believe this is national government and this is the bay that you mentioned so you've got us the situation is interesting because i see no want to go to the i.c.c. he sees i.c.c. as a gandhi for him and that's another part of the role of i.c.c. as far as he's concerned it's a battle of the two evils and i just interviewed his lawyer and couple of weeks ago

and obviously he still believes that the i.c.c. is a mickey mouse trial as he calls it but the problem is that the current state of levy and justice is so poor and that more people have been killed in libya since the i.c.c. involvement and since nato involvement than during the time of gaddafi and during the suppression of the pro of the protests that you just cited i cannot agree to inside court the court judges from eighteen countries because it's doing its job is a very complicated job and a very complex but the fact that saif gadhafi tried to go to the sea showing in using the wall is less primitive now because we have an international criminal court ready to go when we need it and that is an evolution that's an interesting statement because i would argue that the court is not ready to act precisely the way it active in libya it's not ready to act on syria because of all the mistakes

and all the political meddling that was conducted during the libyan involvement but can i just press you on the libyan case because given the state of justice in libya these days and the isis is still has a mandate over libya and demanded it wasn't to bring to account just gadhafi they demanded it was to punish everybody who was committing crimes against humanity and as we just established crimes against humanity and maybe even war crimes are still being committed in libya do you think in the current circumstances the court has any leverage the court has any possibility of bringing those two. committing those crimes to justice look my feeling is we need to take advantage of the existence of the court if people like you believe there see used were granted countries you may be committed by rebel forces the best way would be to present the case to the court sending any citizen in the world has the right to send the communication to the court of course if you send videos and strong evidence the court should answer that

so for me to say all you got to do nothing promote action in court you have the right to do it well i feel if there were muslim organizations what reason can do really because the court has just ordered a full islam be transferred to the hague it has issued several warrants and the militia in libya they defy there was war and send there is absolutely no power in the world that will make be it currently being authorities to transfer safe a list to the i.c.c. so what's the point of even launching those proceedings when the i.c.c. is so toothless and powerless when it comes to libya is vengeance and you say that because for me the present today is in fact the national government in libya libyan national government has no power to do to take so you cannot see who is still in the hands of the militia and as a very accurate situation is very strange is a weird situation because who have a national government everyone because nothing government but they go and look to

their control even its own militias so if this iteration is so complicated and you side and you still side the libyan case as a success and as a path to follow when it comes to syria why do you think anyone should trust the i.c.c. the on on the syrian issue why should should china russia india all those countries that are poor opposed to the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. why should they trust the it's going to be any better than it isn't in syria i'm sorry china russia never have. poe's reset of i.c.c. to in syria in fact no one proposed it so china and russia veto was not about as you see was never presented absolutely but i don't want to go there russian officials here in moscow and they would never even if such a resolution was stable in the security council for the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. russia would never support it precisely because it doesn't trust the credibility of

the i.c.c. because of the whole libyan experience look i think as you say it's important to understand the cap in libya and to have different views but russia has a lot they believe that in libya there have to be more people indicted they got percent information they see or in syria my proposal these recent months wanted to see they tried to use eyes to see as a way to these trade commission you crimes because that's the main goal look in kenya today be confused about kenya the main achievement of i seen kenya was that induces on thirteen there was a peaceful election in kenya and it's interesting that the they tease one direction and now this is strange the duration where the press and the by president kenyatta indicted by the i.c.c. but what i understand i see was a factor helping to cover it piece through election and i think he's not intervening who that we have election well mr moran oh come president has pointed

out every case that the i.c.c. got him itself involved in is very strange but unfortunately this is all we have time for for our viewers please join us again same place same time here and while the party. three bureaus you don't know if you know her car there are no response to really. everyone in my life that i cared about their goal but now that i came to skate well . i was a national champion in track and field and also i was able to go and qualify for

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