serious specifically by the. i'm sorry i'm sorry i never mention one you cannot have one wore them from me talking about syria i say nothing nothing because we as a prosecutor of the international court we are not jews external syria was very late i'll tell you khalid on the year you started commenting on syria believe it was just last year and i believe we have a sound byte to prove the point when you gave the interview to c b c the economic canadian broadcaster and you actually called for referring assad by the un security council to the i.c.c. and what you said back down is that the i.c.c. should act in conjunction with neda let's hear exactly what he had to say back then suppose the security council referred the case the international criminal court and supposed international court preparing by minigames assad because he is a commander in chief and there are to do clear killing of civilians there then the

issue is east international community ready to say ok we request not to prepare another who aren't an implementor who are in again assad in syria and he is the not to receive instructions assad will negotiate there now obviously syria is not a party to the i.c.c. that is why he would leave the un referral but i wonder why would you adverb bring major into the question because as you know the idea of major acting is court martials for the i.c.c. is a total no go for both russia and china and if you believe in the impartiality of the court why would you need not a major in the in the picture you're maybe we need not all the board or the concept i was friends with plain is that. we can use in a much more smarter way the intervention international community court. anomaly.

people say ok but just agree since you wouldn't have no influence that's why i would mention me to the forces if there is a prospect of an international criminal investigation that would be enforce it that would be people we arrested venn that would create incentives to do a different illustration a real negotiation of the crimes that's all the consulate to present is the pragmatic approach but mr moran no company why would we need to involve both the i.c.c. or possibly nato wide again because we first need to establish whether or not there are any crimes committed saw coming back to the same issue what could possibly be the charges against president bashar assad why didn't need to involve the i.c.c. in the first place the driving in syria is their revenues coming in crimes but it's obvious that they are also members of the government of their armed forces attacking civilians and that is confirm it then we should investigate who gave the

orders otherwise dimension to assad because when you have the army operating you assume the commander in chief also right that so i think suspicions that in the crimes committed by the government where top officials in board it is a clear suspicion that should be clarified and investigated and i never say someone is guilty should be mitigated it's an important clarification but i think the killing of civilians or the collateral damage as americans call it. in and of itself does not represent strong grounds for prosecution because if we take your own example you know when you are investigated crimes committed against civilians in iraq by the british forces over whom you had jurisdiction back then you concluded that indeed civilians were killed by the british forces in iraq and that thousands and yet you found no ground to go ahead with the. prosecution no let me

correct you what we found the british soldiers who were involved in few we three killings and. the torture some individuals but mostly were combatant so they were conducting national proceedings in some way because they signed as you see they know the british know that if they are not committing the crimes we will do it so basically what we found information about some incident what we can see isolated incidents individually people doing some individual crimes . was not a widespread attack against civilians and basically they conduct the investigation that's why we did not intervene in iraq but mr miller and i come by i don't think we need. any endorsement or any even proof from the house to see on that matter that the british involvement in iraq killed civilians i mean i don't think it's being disputed i think it's it is something that even the british government

recognizes that thousands of people in iraq were killed as a direct result of british involvement is that not the case that. this was we conduct this examination like this seven years ago in those days information we have available for that was that there were isolated incident there was not a planning to attack a specific little civilians and that's a different with libya when we meet gaddafi we found evidence that the government for the world should concede billions with live ammunition on the streets we don't find the similar evidence in the case of iraq i would like to discuss the libyan case a bit later on but let's come back to the syrian issue which is the most pressing geopolitical issue in the world these days i don't just recently you published an opinion piece advocating of the notion of temporal justice for syria sensually saying that lads tell both the army and the rebels that thought ing from january

first two thousand. every crime committed in syria will be investigated but i think from the point of view of both legality and international justice it's a very controversial proposition because essentially what you're saying is that you know we will go off to you for the crimes you commit later on but in the meantime feel free to have a killing spree and know that they did the following legally today there is no interest or justice in syria because the goal the first goal is to stop crimes i was adjusting the proposed ok will be international justice from first generally. going on so that create incentives and even promote a different environment to jeannie where they will see asians to stop the grunts before general first but doesn't that in itself and to mind the whole notion of international justice because i would assume that both know the assad government and the rebels should fill the pressure of international justice if they commit

crimes now they should know that they will be prosecuted isn't that ultimately what no conventions are all about what the international justice the i.c.c. is all about is great that you mention that because then you have a like the problem today today there is no possibility to intervene in syria because syria as russia has us china as many other kinds of libya they did not ratify the treaty therefore they are not under the i.c.c. the only way to get syria under the sea is if the u.n. security council decide to do it as it decided to do it in libya so libya was a case where all the countries the fifty member of the security council decided to justice because libya was not member but to give the country or the power to impose justice but i think it is also one of the main reasons why all those manned all those members of the u.n. security council that supported the i.c.c. referral back down no longer want to back

a day i think there are. lot of questions about the execution of the i.c.c. mandate in libya but before we go there can i ask you one question that is only conventionally related to syria and it is about a ugandan rebel leader joseph kwame i know that during your term as chief prosecutor you were very passionate about the need to bring him to justice and if you compare the lord's resistance army that operated in uganda and later in congress and the militarized opposition i think there are a lot of similarities now both fought against the oppression of the government both wanted to create a theocracy instead of a secular government both used child soldiers both were involved in clans even and a serial massacres in both in the case of uganda and syria millions of people were displaced because of that actions now the i.c.c. it was very firm on the uganda joseph colony was indicted and he had for some

reason really almost never hear anyone associated with the i.c.c. calling for. similar action against the syrian rebels i agree with you. and lucy and rose are committing crimes and they should be based again in the same way that the libyan rebels were committing crimes they should investigate it i agree with you that the concert ok wrote recently agree but mr moran and company have to take a very short break now but when we come back discussing international actions in syria is impossible without invoking billy b. and finale or was it a striking success or an irredeemable failure of the i.c.c. well that's coming out in a few moments on worlds apart. it

is easy to. say. maybe yours you don't know if you don't think carl norris plans to release.

everyone in my life that i cared about their goal much and then it became a scam well. i was a national champion in track and field and also i was able to go and qualify for the olympic games. you know nine hundred eighty eight i started to experiment with other drugs i had lost all the financial means that i had them was really on the street. black market can. kill three. hundred. welcome back to worlds apart real discussing the state of global justice with the

former chief prosecutor of the international criminal court luis moreno ocampo mr moran accomplice you always sought to present the r.c.c. leave involvement as a success and indeed if you look back all the un security council members agreed unanimously on referring libya to the i.c.c. you managed to start your investigation fairly early in the conflict and it seemed like leave your presented a real momentum for the r.c.c. to reassert its role in global politics but in a half years later i think all those hopes of reasserting the r.c.c. role have been decimated russia china india all those countries that supported the i.c.c. referral unanimously back than. one nothing to do with the i.c.c. on the case of syria i wonder what and who do you think is to blame i was present differently in fact the western countries did not request as intervention in

syria when russia veto there was no mention to i.c.c. but my feeling is the real problem in libya was not isis resetter was in the following the solution. in the use of force valve was a divisive while and i think that was indeed a very divisive point but i think your own conduct in the days after the i.c.c. referral was also a major issue and i think many in this country felt that. you sought to convict gaddafi in the court of public opinion before you even had a chance to indict him that you put media attention before any legal proceedings and by doing that many feel that you were actually on to mind the credibility of these great institution with the case i took just the first ten days. when there with very clear cut situation where i'm forces were shooting civilians i

collect evidence about six or seven incidents with four hundred people killed and i present this first case to the international criminal court judges and i got review an indictment and. of course they're not the only crimes committed in libya because after my ten days. investigation there were months of an armed conflict with many type of crimes into the killing of south. we never start a case on that because basic what's happening was the new wording was saying they will do justice now and in fact there is a debate about it should be pursued in libya or in the i.c.c. so there you have this done eyes intervention should be minimalistic but i'm not disputing that the crimes go drivers but i would challenge your point saying that. they initially i.c.c.

involvement in the nation events were clear cut because i wasn't been gazi in february and the crowds that were attacking police stations and keep a military base there weren't civilians there were armed militia but moving beyond that point what i'm primarily interested in is that the claims that you made later on and more specifically your claims about gaddafi supposedly giving its army sexually enhanced saying drugs to facilitate a systematic campaign of rape let's remind our viewers how exactly you phrased it we are finding some elements confirming this issue for acquisition of. biography by proof of. medicament. through showing the policy now they were buying the containers with product to enhance the possibly do great going. here citing strong evidence do they still believe that those evidence were

strong i say. i say we're trying to confirm that that the way in which the line started but mr moran of you may resonate with him this in from you made that statement before you even had a jury indictment mr gaddafi on those crimes you ran to the court of public as the opinion but you were the warrant from the i.c.c. that shows your assignment of priorities i think. on this issue my concern was we in those days we presented evidence and we against i would have the evidence that the shooting. torture we have seen is a leg asians of rapes massive rapes but in a very difficult context because in libya families reject even to talk about that even gaz rape it could be kill two to call her the shame for the family so it's a very complicated very sensitive issue benaud cannot question about that but later

on just days after you made this statement amnesty international human rights watch doctors without borders and the international crisis group investigated those claims and they all sad that they were absolutely no evidence for claims of systematic rape moreover amnesty international said that rebels at times appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence or as things that stand now at this point it was a ruse there was never ever any avid dance to support that claim and yet you as the chief prosecutor of the world's highest court you went public with those allegations and those allegations help to turn global public opinion against gadhafi look we have evidence we have it we in our investigation different human i watch and i'm just a national i believe we have better investigations we collect information that the worst showing us the massive number of girls who are that attended in

hospitals with. some cases in the view of the people telling us what happened but they were not ready to talk openly and we had this information of biography thing that was where i say i was trying to confirm in fact it was a marginal comment i did i became a b. headline i'm sorry for that for me was just trying to be. sincere saying ok these are the lines we are investigating and i say in this in this statement you mentioned i say confirming i would tend to confirm but why was. my confirming that's the that's the big the accusation against the head of state why would you go to the media before considering that you have them not i would say there were many questions there was in the press conference asking me what i believe the rape were not why you're not investigating the rapes that was a question i say we are and i playing what we were doing i never say never the

ready ok so that was the finish of that in any case the case with the about killings and torture were confirmed by the judges so we have a case they can get after a very strong on killings and torture maybe you have a case maybe you don't because i mean those those evidence have never been presented in the courtroom and as i'm sure you know a good office son safe will islam has been held in detention in libya for more than two years without any access to a lawyer in addition to him there are around ten thousand other prisoners all across the country that are held in even harsher conditions on the top of that thousands of people on this has been documented have been executed in libya without any trial at all for just being labeled get off of loyalists this is the state of justice in libya and i wonder when you say that the libyan case was a success when you say that it was a good solution i wonder good for whom because success rate is the is term for it

prancing in humanity or a genocide situation into chaos care with no crimes then time by the crimes against humanity that's that's the crazy thing i see is not reforming libya into sweden or russia leaving is better now because as i said the crimes a very complicated situation but there are no massive atrocities. in this crowd as a result of the trust that is when every human rights organization reports to the contrary there is absolutely no war in order in libya people are being killed people being buried but the i.c.c. has never investigated or has never brought a single case against believe been brought militia leaders can face justice. and we try to defy those who commit their wars crimes and it that way for us was obvious

that this shooting of civilians on the streets was a crimes against humanity i said that in the who which are the groups committee must rest in libya was not easy in my time because i'm a conflict where thirty thousand people died i see this vision today i am i the news did exactly the day. but i'd be this a national government and there's a debate you mentioned you've got us the situation is interesting because i see no one to go to the i.c.c. he sees i.c.c. as a gandhi for him and that's ok is another part of the role of i.c.c. as far as he's concerned it's a better of the two evils and i just interviewed his lawyer and couple of weeks ago and obviously he still believes that the i.c.c. is a mickey mouse trial as he calls it but the problem is that the current state of levy and justice is so poor and that more people have been killed in libya since the i.c.c. involvement and since nato involvement than during the time of gaddafi and during

the suppression of the pro of the protests that you just cited i cannot agree to court the court judges from eighteen countries because it's doing its job is a very complicated job and a very complex singleton's but the fact that saif gadhafi tried to go to the sea showing in using the wall is less primitive now because we have international criminal court ready to go when we need it and that is an evolution that's an interesting statement because i would argue that the court is not ready to act precisely of the way it active in libya it's not ready to act on syria because of all the mistakes and all the political meddling that was conducted during the libyan involvement but can i just press you on the libyan case because given the state of justice in libya these days and the isis is still has a mandate over libya and demand it wasn't to bring to account just gadhafi they

have demanded it was to punish everybody who was committing crimes against humanity and as we just established crimes against humanity and maybe even war crimes are still being committed in libya do you think in the current circumstances the court has any leverage the court has any possibility of bringing those two. committing those crimes to justice look my feeling is we need to take advantage of the existence of the court if people like you believe there see used were granted continue medical media by rebel forces the best way would be to present the case to the court sending any citizen in the world has the right to send the communication to the court of course if you send videos and strong evidence the court should answer that so for me to say all you got to do nothing promote action in court you have the right to do it well i feel that if there were a similar position of orders i think you can do really because the court has just

ordered a full islam be transferred to the hague it has issued several warrants and the militia in libya they defined it was born sending there is absolutely no power in the world that will make be it currently being authorities to transfer a safe a list to the i.c.c. so what's the point of even launching those proceedings when the i.c.c. is so toothless and powerless when it comes to libya is vengeance and you say that because for me the present today is in fact the national going to libya libyan national government has no power to try to take so you cannot see who is still in the hands of the militia and that's a very accurate situation is very strange it's a weird situation because who would have a national government everyone because not a government but they go and look to the control even its own militias so if this iteration is so complicated and you side and you still side the libyan case as a success and as a path to follow when it comes to syria why do you think anyone should trust the

i.c.c. the on on the syrian issue why should should china russia india all those countries that are poor opposed to the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. why should they trust the it's going to be any better than it isn't in syria i'm sorry china russia never have. poe's reset of i.c.c. to in syria in fact no one proposed so china and russia veto was not about as you see was never presented absolutely but i want to know the russian officials here in moscow and they would never even have such a resolution was stable in the security council for the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. russia would never support it precisely because it doesn't trust the credibility of the i.c.c. because of the whole libyan experience look i think as you say it's important to understand what happened livia and there are different views but russia has a lot they believe that in libya there have to be more people indicted they got

percent information to see or in syria my proposal this recent months wanted to see they tried to use eyes to see as a way to these trade commission you crimes because that's the main goal look in kenya today people are confused about kenya the main achievement of i see kenya was that in design thirteen there was a peaceful election in kenya and it's interesting that the in the eighty's one direction and now this is strange you do asian where the press and the by president kennedy are indicted by the i.c.c. but it was understand i think the was a factor helping to cover it piece through election and i see it's not in the intervening who that we have election well mr moran oh come president has pointed out every case that the i.c.c. got him itself involved in is very strange but unfortunately this is all we have time for for our viewers please join us again same place same time here and while the party.

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olympic torch relay. on r t r g. crossing before the law in washington is accused of topping the very top and chairman and snooping on chancellor merkel herself an operation for linda miles in need it are. the secrets of the detainees at stake with the wardens also his current spill is gone total of a sparkling clean brings and fine dining contrast of all the ill fated inmates experienced firsthand you're seeing what there is just to see you know. our report censored by the u.s. military is coming up in just a few modeling. on the life that brought the darkness is recovering after an alleged strike on a key gas pipeline knocks the power out across much of the.