riyadi speaking its mind and threatening to pursue a number of policy departures regarding its relationship with washington refraining from a coveted seat on the united nations security council the soviets are furious over washington stance on syria and the failure to support a meaningful peace process in the town for the palestinians the kingdom of saudi is going out on its own but where. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images her world has been seeing from the streets of canada. giant corporations are today.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle the saudi pivot riyadi speaking its mind in threatening to pursue a number of policy departures regarding its relationship with washington refraining from a coveted seat on the united nations security council the saudis are furious over washington stance on syria approaches to iran and the failure to support a meaningful peace process on behalf of the palestinians the kingdom of saudi is going out on its own but where. to cross-talk saudi arabia's foreign policy i'm joined by my guest in washington james carafano he is a vice president of foreign and defense policy studies at the heritage foundation

also we have me he is founder and director of the center for democracy and human rights in saudi arabia and we cross to jim lobe he is the washington bureau chief for into press service and publisher of loeb log dot com or in jail in close up rules if it means you can jump in anytime you want jim if i go to you first in washington these words coming out of riyadh is that bluster i mean the united states and saudi arabia are attached at the hip and they have been for for decades it's just words coming out of riyadh well i don't think i have any particular insight into what what king abdullah is thinking and obviously he's kind of the supreme decision maker it's not that words are not just coming out of out of riyadh itself they're they're coming out of washington because prince turki just gave a very fiery speech and defiant speech. at a conference here a couple of days ago. i think there are two schools of thought one school of. here

believes that it is mainly bluster that. saudi arabia is so closely entangled particularly on the military and security front with the united states that it really can't sue for divorce but there are others who believe that saudi arabia is really quite serious and that it's looking for other foreign partners great powers including for example russia itself to wean itself away from washington over the long term and that there is a strategic decision is either about to be made or has already been made to diversify the sources of its particularly of its security james i mean if there is some kind of diversification diversify to where to whom. i mean what other superpower is there so i think you know i do think the united states ought to take this seriously because quite honestly the saudis don't do this very often i agree and when they do this in good appears to be

a very orchestrated way that they're really kind of sending a message now are they are they are they really serious about diversifying and i think that's a more of an open question look at i was running saudi arabia and i was going to create new geo strategic relationships you know being in the middle east that's like doing a trap piece act you know like go the trapeze and say you got something to grab onto and so i'm not sure i would be i would do that in a in a have an open messy public divorce and have already had kind of figured out well so i'm going to do so whether this is punishing the united states as opposed to a real geo strategic shift. if i was a bet and i kind of bet on the punishment the notion that there's a cataclysmic shift i'm not sure there's enough evidence for that if that does happen the problem for the saudis for doing that is. the middle east is a really messy place and any time you make it messier everybody's at risk including

you only how do you how do you look at this here i mean we heard the word punishment in obviously punishment of washington well what does that say of this kind of relationship that the saudis have to go around in public and punish because the united states will invade certain countries it won't it's starting to talk to the wrong quote unquote countries it's it's not condemning the dictatorship in cairo i mean what kind of punishment is that shouldn't washington in brittle be some people in washington embrace and say yeah good riddance we don't you're a liability to us that is not think about this show and you could do a job understand i did the states. deal on family in the families in the gulf sort of live in the united states and it's this is a fact of life that i took that comes of. this speech is that it is his. so it seems to be actually does this go into a. mall so therefore the photo must stick and fought to get out of consumption

the share of data jim is a problem out of desperate than a lot of been in its history they have a tie in to. this. in the united states even the out of the need to support their crime paying to attack as had been the home and that i can't on and destroy the add on and modernize and they failed in all the front so i've tried it does put it more than i want to be a phone there's nothing they could do to punish to punish the united states and that is a fact of life jim can this audience with great james go ahead you want to jump in because the realignment that kind of realignment is really hard to do considered you know everything is interconnected in i tend to agree them when you start making these changes you can make things really messy are the saudis really afraid i mean an arab spring eventual visit on him going look you know well i mean i wanted to i want to do agree i mean the saudis are in

a bad place but there's lots of people that fall for it i think we're at fault for that we i think the last several years our foreign policy has has accelerated making the middle east a mess your place but the saudis have a lot to answer for from themselves i mean they have not taken on the challenge of true economic freedom reform of the political reforms that we really ensure the worn term stability and the success of the country so there's plenty of blame to go around. the us for sure well jim i mean isn't it is it is. this this is out a hand this this early days when they. are fearful of losing because of without putting and. and also looking for security and the wrong places and instead of relying on their own be able. and. and democracy could afford homes and political participation and parliament of one mind that religious tolerance and

give be able to give this be able to stay in on their own country to defend it and to british aid to a country and its location this early the idea is continuing the politics of divison finesse. and tolerance. and. out of there are always look for somebody a from outside to protect them more than talk protect the country because they know as long as there is the love of oil and charge out i'd be out of the gulf region the united states and the west in general on the entitlement shall community all aboard checked it of. external and internal crises so that egypt was as desperate and that's looking for somebody to protect it from its and be able and stead of a lying on a to be able to defend their country and yeah but i mean. connectedness between these two countries is vast jim if i can go to you i'm thinking of petro dollars

investment in the united states i mean again this is one and i can understand why the saudis are upset because you know they're the people that they think they control are not doing what they're supposed to do quote unquote but then again you know you have invested here in the united states and the u.s. military the military industrial complex certainly doesn't want to see saudi arabia go away after what i have one hundred fifty billion dollars over the last few decades that's a nice piece of change for defense companies. no i mean obviously there's there are strong interests here in the united states that are very worried that the two countries may part ways or that the ties between them may be becoming increasingly frayed. you know on the other hand i mean it's very clear over the past thirteen years that the region is changing dramatically you know as chaz freeman former ambassador to saudi arabia said at the same conference where prince

turki. appeared and gave his remarks. this really is kind of the last region to be in a sense to colonize and where the people of the region and the regimes of the region are coming out from under external protection are asserting their own kind of identities as various as they are so it's a what we have is a situation of enormous fluidity both within the region and among the external actors who have affected the region and now you have suddenly the possibility of some kind of detente or even rapprochement between the united states and iran and that really changes the regional chess board in very fundamental ways that i don't think people have fully kind of gamed out yet and i think the saudis are particularly worried about that because they do not want to go back to

a time before the iran revolution where they played second fiddle to the shah in the gulf region and i think i think that's a major reason for why you see this kind of sudden hysterical almost hysterical kind of reaction and bitter complaining on the part of riyadh if i go to james i mean the great pillars of the of the middle east you know we look at saudi arabia for the united states are doing israel turkey and we have egypt. all of them are in flux some kind of agreeing with what jim just said there because the world is changing in ways so much faster than we could ever imagine during this old my term new colonial experience they had. put over the grid that entire region for many many decades it's unraveling and the so decides just don't know what to do you know i just want to get to add to that first i want to say one thing that shouldn't be lost here is this really does demonstrate one really stupid idea which is that america and in western america we have this idea of the notion of energy security

as well look if we just weren't dependent on middle east oil then we could just ignore all that well the united states has actually reached the point where it is a net exporter of fossil fuels and energy and you know watch it and we say we're going to pivot to asia and all the rest and you know what we're just as concerned about the middle east as we were before when we we imported more from the middle east because the reality is the middle east is a very important region of the world and a global power like the united states just can't sit back and say well we don't care what happens there so the notion that somehow we can just ignore all of this not worry about it that ain't true the point look the point on iran the saudis are worried about a u.s. iranian reproach what are they going to happen that's going to fail with the saudis are worried about is living with the blowback of that failure and the point is that it's a very good point of all that me just being here will continue on that point but we have to go to a short break and after that show frank will continue our discussion on saudi arabia state with r.t. .

if you would. please. camarena like the polish face you know. a pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm sure.

i would rather ask questions to people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t. question for.

welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing saudi arabia's new foreign policy. only fungo back to you in washington iran was mentioned here and i think that's where most of us agree this is where a lot of the bridges coming out of iraq originates here but hey as james said it's probably very unlikely they'll be a reproach of any kind of normalization of brain relations there's just too much the israeli lobby in congress too many other people in foreign policy circles have just gotten so used to having around as an enemy and it's a useful enemy also in the region for the united states and other interests i mean is there any i mean the the the saudis saw this coming are they overreacting to

that because the likelihood of a full reproach maulvi is very small i think we would all agree. i disagree surely not one of these so it is many frustrations and fear. to deal with. the out of spinning and gun and they are fearful of the united states and europe one of the appeal of all. to the mid eighty's and the mid eighty's and tightly defined differently than they used to before the arab spring nobody nobody ican talk nobody kind of shoulder here in washington like they used to why that is think tank cars or government over jails or anybody that this isn't about a games in the middle east who will escape the. the m pact of the out of spring and that is why these saudis frustration has been building up because they saw the don fall of mubarak and been out in. the hands of god that he

and the west does not stupid people i mean they are of my age and them and i believe situation but what was said on power is no now that the trend is going and the direction of be able are weakening and whether we like a top of my towards have been i'm going to out of board as ensemble and out of it and none of the four model still existing. james would be spared the be able to be able to vault sabathia but you know is that untenable for me on this early days biggest nightmare has been i need approach ma between the united states and it on it on and is that i have fought exam but their biggest fear is that there is a lot of ties and i think that is going to be hoben and because i think the out on friday and a lesson that they don't to blame a fire and want to comes to us about apologies the lot of the united states because

of the inside it was very good point show if i go to jim here if i go to jim i mean . look at this on the other way around i mean. if there is some kind of relief in washington that somehow begin lowered the profile of the relationship with saudi arabia because i mean the more you learn about saudi arabia and it's not talked a lot about in western media but the more you learn about the country wowhead does it's not really up with the times to say the least here and it can be a liability for the united states in the region as we're talking about this flux here and third if i always correct it's only you know it's only a matter of time before the arab spring visits riyadh only amount of time. i mean i think that discussion is expanding and i think this i think the saudis are kind of forcing its expansion in washington i think they're forcing people to assess is saudi arabia really a net plus for the united states or is it also a liability and i think alys remarks and for that matter james's introductory

remarks about the degree to which saudi arabia has kind of placed it self a sward history and said stop you know with the arab spring and is now trying desperately to roll it back not just in bahrain but with billions of dollars in sub vention to egypt which are probably not sustainable in the long term i think that question about well how much do we really need saudi arabia. is occurring to more and more people in washington and i think also i don't think it in a sense that they're there helping their own cause the the decision not to take the now the security council seat was seen as. biting off one's nose to spite one's face. and and similarly these kind of gratuitous attacks by prince bandar and to

a lesser extent by prince turki i don't think are particularly appreciated at the present moment especially i think. when what could be called the foreign policy establishment believes very strongly that these diplomatic effort with the ron is really worth pursuing and i think you can see that even reflected in how prime minister netanyahu of israel has modified his remarks just in the past week because i think he's getting the sense that there really is a degree of interest in washington in moving toward detente with the ron that hasn't existed before sorry ok it's and i think you have it was causing a lot of people to assess you brought up israel james that it's quite interesting because a lot of people in the greater middle east the arab world would see saudi arabia and israel strongly aligned on many many issues here or what do you think the israelis are picking up on the q.

now also is that you know the sands are shifting here and that kind of relationship they have with me will change you know i thank god we all found something finally we can disagree and look. closer at us already and thing is going nowhere it is just not going to happen it's a dead end it's actually going to be incredibly destabilizing and countries like saudi arabia and israel are freaked out because they know that with all this ends at the end of the day they're going to be worse off and this is look if you look regardless of what you think about us foreign policy and what we should have done here's the one thing that's indisputable if you look at what's happened the last four or five years in all the countries that really are important to us in the middle east and that together if you had strong by their relations with that would actually make a difference turkey saudi arabia israel i would put george in that category as well in iraq we've lost ground on every single one of them and i think that's indisputable and so the reality is that bad things are we could is it

a bad thing jay syria it would have been nothing to get better i would agree with you but only to bad so horrible thing you why because we're why. really a horrible thing because we're not because because it's going to diminish the ability to protect our vital interests in the region and our number one vital interest in the region is to not see the region destroy itself ok jim do you want to weigh in there because a lot of people would say a lot of these problems are because of the neo colonial project that was established here after the first world war and intensified after the end of the cold the water is now known as it's going to g.m. or if we buy wasn't a good thing to argue about and then we go to jim come on come on go ahead jim. well unfortunately i didn't hear exactly what i was saying at the end there i mean my. my sense is that that there that well i should say first of all i mean israel has to kind of for its foreign policy strategic traditions and one is making peace with the arab world which was always the dream of the labor party and

particularly of its being and the other was no you will never make peace with the arab world you have to arrange your alliances with the periphery and the periphery was iran and turkey most importantly and. that has been followed and tell the nine hundred ninety s. by the party and you'll recall that it was under the government that israel was supporting iran during the iran iraq war. and the notion that israel itself may make some strategic reassessments of its own i think it's not a fantastic one and indeed you're getting a lot of murmurs certainly from the israeli national security establishment now that the deal that people think may in fact be quite doable with iran that is

strict limits on their enrichment capabilities that would make it impossible for them to move to a nuclear weapon within one to two years is a quote reasonable unquote solution it may not be the perfect but it's a reasonable solution with which israel could live so it may be that you'll see israel depending on how these negotiations go moving in a somewhat different direction than it has over the last fifteen twenty years i mean i think there is a lot in motion in the middle east and it's very difficult to predict what will happen. for example predicting that the iran u.s. negotiations will go nowhere i think they may be i think the chances are somewhat better than that only if the saudis really want to put their money where their mouth is here they wouldn't go to a good end ok james go ahead reply go ahead this is crosstalk no no i just didn't

say i didn't say they wouldn't go nowhere i just said they wouldn't and well big difference and well for whom. for everybody in the region ok ali let me go to you if the united states is desperate to get a deal and the israelis may live with a deal that doesn't mean the deal i want to know what i'm going to stay with saudi arabia here. only if i go to you i mean any kind of this is what really infuriates the saudis because the saudis will no longer have that kind of influence the kind of influence they have now in washington because you have a greater balance of forces in the in the greater middle east and this is exactly what saudi arabia does not want. they only have laws this early days have. as the flaws that there was and especially our country had given them we gave them them for no one to support them we support of them and put out there and also. strive to gaze at on as

a kid merely eighteen million people eighteen million people across the other from the show it is a sort of quote of the oil company and i know exactly what iran is capable of showing off and i don't been tens of inflicting determine this damage to the saudis and our interests i think it is in the best interests of this show id be able maybe not this show idea government but this i would give people to have a good relationship with their powerful iran is the most trying to ball for a country and there are a and b. and b. out of east. and but on the iran and you know give and take and and emanate this. friction between and i need a major rope around as if i were going to get more going to keep an eye on the shifting sands lands in this region many thanks to my guests in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember cross talk rules.

good luck. welcome to the. city fold can just spend over billion euros until she says she needs one hundred fifty million degrees with some token mark noll to sell from st petersburg to france we shall believe such a song. called young we've got the future covered. i'm. a society that i'm big corporation mind.

can do i'm the banker i think all that money all about money and i'm fascinated that for a politician quite a lot and with that. problem. there is just too much rat today's society. that. think a plastic. over my shoulder to do the job that you know the price is the only industry specifically mentioned in the constitution and. that's because a free and open press is critical to our democracy shred albus. role. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and across cynical we've been a hydrogen lying handful of transnational corporations that will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once it's all just my job market and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go

beyond identifying the problem trucks and rational debate and a real discussion on the critical issues facing america by the book ready to join the movement then welcome to the big picture. the. last time as a new alert animation scripts scare me a little bit. there is breaking news tonight and we are continuing to follow the breaking news in the. alexander family cry tears of snow white and great things out there that there had to be adequate regard in a court of law found alive there's a story made for a movie is playing out in real life.

instead. of the the. look at. what's going on guys i'm not being martin and this is breaking. so the n.s.a. is a leaky faucet just won't stop her being hard to know that the u.s. government has its tentacles in the ears of world leaders in france germany and brazil and just yesterday we learned the extent of the n.s.a.'s global spying apparatus goes well beyond these three countries yes apparently eavesdropping on the phone calls of longtime allies just isn't enough to quell uncle peeping sam's voyeurism addiction according to a two thousand and six classified memo released by the guardian the n.s.a. has monitored the phone calls of thirty five world leaders and the best part is that the memo acknowledges that the spying has produced virtually no report of bill and.