a lot of welcome to sophie and kill me sophie shevardnadze now as the international diplomatic crisis over n.s.a. surveillance is gaining in scale the u.s. is scrambling to justify its actions and while we're waiting to learn what exactly obama wanted to hear in angola merkel's conversations the question remains will the west manage to roll back the mass surveillance or will it submit to the reality of this one particular big brother presence. when frames spying on friends and trust has been undermined what can stop the relationship from crumbling when europe forgive the u.s. for sneaking in snooping or will they hang up on their curious ally. but how much longer will snowden's revelations keep the flames of the route and our guest

today is to british labor i mean. well it's a really interesting visit and to be honest we didn't expect one hundred percent we went to washington the whole nature of investigating the stored knowledge of mass surveillance of spying meant that we were very realistic we didn't expect to get you know the definitive answers about what was going on but we did get some very high level meetings we got face to face meetings with the n.s.c. we went to the white toast and so on so you know we had to every major department and we began to build up a picture in one of those build ups if you like was to try and get our concerns across the first thing was to get the concerns across and they were first of all that these allegations are really amassing there are allegations which are taken very seriously in the european union first of massive elance of you citizens. then

of course the spying allegations but osu issues of commercial sensitivity you know all of the issues about google and yahoo and all of these to. access issues so we got those across and then we try to get some answers on capitol hill and so on but it be wrong to see that we could definitive answers back because it's a voluntary process trying to make some progress but clark did you have do you do you come back with anything at all what are you reporting back to europe because you couldn't you can't get your point of view across to america without going to america they could say we're outraged by you spying on us but are you actually reporting back to europe with something. what you've got to remember and i mean every journalist is us this you know why go to america when they come here look we're having hearings in brussels and strasburg we're european parliament we have representation rule for twenty seven countries we have had dozens of hearings in

brussels in strasburg many americans have come to see it including whistleblowers by the way we've just learned ruddock who gave a statement from edward snowden for example so we've had many americans give us evidence there but it would be wrong not to have at least one visit to washington where people who were not able to give evidence gave evidence where we could interact with some people who had not come to brussels so we did and it was only for two or three days that was imports and it was important to get a sense of our concerns to them and that was also a two way street now what you know what most journalists have said well yeah what did the u.s. officials se didn't you think did they try to justify the n.s.a.'s activities are or was it just that one way monologue from here outside oh yes they did try and justify what they were doing in fact we had private meetings with the n.s.a. homeland security department national security council and there was some

justification given in fact she would have seen that. we had we had private meetings and then you saw a public statement coming out while we were there for the national security agency is explicitly a it's a mass surveillance activity and you saw that coming from the n.s.c. and capitol hill while we were there and the justification given was public it was about this was done on the basis of you know the necessity of a terror activity it was done in partnership with the government so they were they were in fact while we were there starting to rebut many of the allegations and that was unusual because my point. to many of the tissues that we saw was this it is take it a long time for the n.a.c. and others to come back on these allegations there's been a lot of silence and that was one of my points today so there were some reports

happening while we were there. ok here's what you have set recently spined has always existed but friend on friend spying is not something that is easily toral america was spying on friends and it couldn't possibly be terrorism ok and there are speculations of purely economic reasons behind it spying have you learned the purpose of the spying or is it just official lines that they've given us a long. oh no we haven't learned the full truth of this have to be open about that we haven't learned the quotes that you just gave back to me particular the german example for example the allegations of chancellor merkel i can speak for my colleagues who were there with my german parliament here in colleagues from all sorts of political parties in the european parliament who feel that you know what would be the purpose of espionage or you know chancellor merkel i mean you know

is that for security purposes is there any necessity for it is there is it proportionate and i think the view of my colleagues and i on that parliament delegation you know i would say the majority of people the european union but i think. well that's the point about these allegations that if the disproportionate if if there is no perceived reason for must surveillance and that allegation of us violence is proven. to a process of trying to figure out what is going on if that's the case that you're going to get to a point of commercial success to fifty one. i mean is you've got further allegations of massive valence of data be taken from citizens there are two points here what is the specific allegations in relation to companies this issue of back during the trip in and so on the second problem of breakdown of trust which

effects the movement of that could have commercial implications so there are two issues here if you have a breakdown of trust between the e.u. and us on this set of allegations we've said this to our code to parts and we know this is this is an issue. between the e.u. and us if you have this bridge of trust and you don't repair it that there are commercial implications but can't sell you something from what i'm hearing right now it looks like it really was more of a symbolic visit rather than anything else just like europe's reaction to a spine case of this proportion. well i mean it doesn't disturb me that you think you know my feelings are not hurt if you feel it's symbolic that's up to you what i thought it was was a very high level visit we got some information a realistic expectations were met and we were realistic that tell you why we're

realistic because parliaments are not perfect democracy is are not perfect we don't have subpoena powers but not a court of law we can't force people to tell us something we don't want to tell us but it democracies and parliaments you try you try and get the truth you try and speak to counterparts these are our allies so we're there we're asking the questions we're asking tough questions and we're doing that in brussels in strasburg as well because at the end of the day we know we're legislators we're not perfect but we're there to address what we think e.u. citizens are concerned about they are definitely in our view concerned that mass state a chance. heard of happened because of these allegations that these allegations are made there's a privacy issue there's a human rights issue but there's also a commercial issue they have been tough questions are great but i really wonder about the answers and you said you haven't gotten any tangible answers like that

generally wonder why would they be spying on agam or i've looked at me yet. yeah it's really interesting you keep asking this and that's fine but this is not our reporting situation. it's a parliamentary inquiry no what i think is happening here it's a process i think with the media with good journalism with n.g.o.s with legislators there is pressure here genuine pressure building up this is part of a process people are watching this process companies businesses who don't want to see you know introduction breaking in you know back doors into people's mass affecting business privacy being you know something that is an afterthought why because in the future if we could have commercial transactions you don't want to see this being broken down super human rights reasons and for commercial reasons people want

to see this issue resolved in some way and i think that's why this process probably in the end. will it will take time but i think it will come through but it will be a painful and long process i don't think this could be an instant process but let's talk about the process a bit that you know right after merkel's reaction the spanish government has warned of a potential breakdown of trust for the us well ok but so what now it's not like they're cutting diplomatic ties what exactly does that mean the breakdown of trust. what's happening here is you've got major governments you could spanish government where we were there mn do. have a piece on. the allegations of spanish citizens having mass surveillance germany the french situation i mean what's happening here is these allegations are coming thick and fast and we understand there will be more allegations and you've

got here a sort of relentless situation of allegations and the key point here is that many. these allegations are not having an answer and the situation is as we understand it is that because it's intelligence issues. we understand that we have been told that we have a call that coming from the n.s.c. but while we were there there were some reports orse now we're in a situation where as a parliamentary inquiry and indeed there are many national inquiries as well who are not the only one. we want to get as much information as possible at the end of our inquiry you know we're all completely forensic inquiry but we'll take what information we can get and make some assumptions and make some recommendations but we think that at the end of the day those countries germany france spain you mentioned those countries will have their intelligence services they will remain so you know they do what they want to do but the citizens will still ask the question

you know what it what it what it is like government doing to safeguard my privacy i think that's the question we will have to be able to answer to those citizens and companies and commercial outfits will want to say look it's safe or are we going to be doing our business in this kind of environment and i think those two questions are what we're interested in but after the break one thing you're paid to supply is the united states and can we trust obama to say activities will be rolled back stating.

the language of war but i will only react to situations i have read the reports. no i will leave that to the state department to comment on your point of the month to say it's. no more weasel words when you question me prepared for a chase when you throw a punch be ready for a. pretty speeches and down to freedom to cost. the fifth more than four hundred cities around the globe are hosting mass rallies for fairness justice and freedom. follow million mask march on r.t.e. and r t dot com. is on its journey to such

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welcome back to the show we're talking to british labor amy claude worry ass who just returned from washington talks on an essay activities so the u.k. government communications had quarters was key in helping the n.s.a. performance surveillance have they given you or anyone their explanations. no we haven't heard. any explanation from g c h q we did invite them to the inquiry they didn't come but i mean do you find it weird that they're not giving you an explanation if they're pretending as if nothing is going on because they're really where a key in the whole operation. though is we've invited intelligence national intelligence services from most of the member states and they've not actually attended i mean this is good this is an interesting point because. when you inquire

into intelligence services and you the european parliament and the european union does have a major intelligence services we've got something called which is a very small intelligence operation but it's nothing like a national intelligence service like you have in russia or u.k. has of france has. because of we just don't have the power and authority to get those intelligence services here we have a thing called loyal cooperation in the you it's a voluntary situation and as a result none of the intelligence services including d.c. h.q. have actually come along turn quality because i've just recently david cameron lashed out at the guardian for being irresponsible for publishing more leaks but you know people are wondering shouldn't he be offering his apologists instead of lashing out at the press. well i mean he's entitled to his view i mean he's the prime minister and he's entitled to his view in the u.k. different politicians have given their view his his view is that he feels the

guardian of going too far and he stated his view but what is your view because you're a politician as well how valid is his veiled threat towards the here the guardian in particular i mean my view my view is that he is entitled to give a view on the guardian that's my view. and he's entitled to he ought to be giving our views prime minister my view about the guardian is i think what the guardian has done is reported responsibly try to in my view take you know a huge set of allegations i feel having interviewed them in the inquiry one of the first they had to it was one of the first it's of us at our inquiry be many journalists in my view and i've got the last word on it but i feel that they have redacted a lot of information. attempted to produce good journalism for example they have

just put the allegations out on a website or whatever they've tried to to shape the story so that people have not been put in danger that's my understanding clear understanding and if that's the case that i think you know the guardian of responsibly reports that this so you think the guardian should have published no doubt revelations that should continue to do so in the future. yeah i mean i'm giving you my view about the guardian not just giving you my view which is that i think that the guardian is a responsible newspaper and in the inquiry we interviewed the editor we put to him very clearly what do you you know what's your purpose what's your methods and it was very clear that they had made a lot of efforts to redacted for me that people in difficulty know there are different views of you know some people who are very strong views of the guardian you know we actually interviewed them in the inquiry and we took the view that.

journalism was a plea here in a very difficult situation so that's my view but the guardian now david cameron himself has not been spied on the world at least that's what he's been told and still he signed up for a statement from all twenty eight even leaders calling for the rebuilding of trust with the united states but isn't he an accomplice in this case and should also be responding now for his actions. i don't know what you mean by hopeless a bit i think the statement to rebuild trust the united states is correct i think that's exactly what we're doing in the inquiry as well because united states is our ally i think most e.u. countries would agree with but i think the idea here is that trust is being. affected by the situation i don't think there's any don't i mean it's a factual case that we are allies. to the u.p.a. you discard the. us trade agreement you can probably

at the moment i mean i was involved in the negotiation negotiating the swift terror deal directly under the lisbon treaty with the united states so we have. partnerships we don't see the point is that it's a trust situation well i'll tell you what i mean because after all i may not know it all i'm just a journalist they cia was paying. g c h q hundreds of millions of dollars to have them spy for them is that normal practice for a governmental agency to receive money from a foreign state. even if it's an ally sure that's what our parliament should cory's trying to look our problem is not just looking at me talking about the poor issue our part of it she looking about but it's looking at all the intelligence services in the e.u. it's our remit is to look oversight issues you because we are far from perfect we have issues about our own intelligence services oversight in fact when

we were in the u.s. we made that very clear to our parts of the u.s. we said that we have oversight issues in our own backyard so we were very clear about that so that's part of our inquiry remit so what do you think snowden now has another powerful enemy of the u.k. for lending them in hard waters i mean i mean if you're asking me about what. mr student. you know if. i'm a legislator i just i mean. this is happening in a situation that thing talked about in every major news channel for the past couple of months so this is all insecure so we're just ducking you're sure. exactly i mean you do as well as i would have been year not just a journalist you have a good idea but this is i do. of course i mean he's you know

he's a very tough position i mean he's a whistle blower. you know and by the way in the inquiry. he was simple as that in fact we had a statement from him through just that granted he was his attorney and so you know we have been parted it's been pretty extensive. just recently president obama has pledged to review the n.s.a. activities what does it mean to you because for some it just means being more cautious to avoid more leaks. here i mean we met with various acts in the united states who are doing this terrible review and i think when anything happens on this scale anywhere they were this could be internal reviews and we you know we're doing our job we met with various actors in the u.s. that are doing this a terrible review and we made it very clear to them you know these are the concerns we have within the european union that when they do their review the

really understand what is happening to citizens of the e.u. and in other parts of the world to in terms of their concerns that certain actions alleged actions that are happening are having an impact on the e.u. so we made that very clear so we know about the internal reviews that are going on ordered by the president so that's what we we were very clear about that would we spoke to the various actors that are doing the internal review. yeah also another interesting fact recently last summer was luxembourg's prime minister's resignation for not being able to keep a security check do you think we could see more stories like that break out in europe. i think that's an interesting point you me because i think there was a time when. sukkoth spy stories stories were really quite rare they did really. after the cold war the speed this big where you

just didn't get any you would never get a resignation you would never really hear about this i think we're in a different phase of accountability i think citizens certainly i can speak of the european union citizens want a code to ability the warrant legislators in this case of works of birth case is a good one you bring up they just want accountability the want people for what they're doing and secrecy and espionage the understand is necessary to protect their security salut the but the wants of balance they want to know that this is not being done for the wrong reasons and they want some level of accountability so this is quite interesting the point you make that. there will be probably more of these types of situations where politicians are brought to be more accountable for what's happening in terms of security secret services and so on and

also really shortly what countries will definitely want to protect their information until the trust is rebuild what never in and whatever form it will happen we don't know that right but what do you think will happen before that like will people start using encrypted communications lines go back to typewriters because some foreign ministers are actually going to do that practice going back to typewriters. yeah i mean you know that's such a brilliant point to make not i've not heard any journalist speak up in all the time i've done this inquiry it's such a good point because one of the big problems here is that is that what during the inquiry actually heard from experts that. is that it's easier to break into highly encrypted services encrypted actually helps sometimes to break and so you know just going back to basics might be easier for some people and i've actually learned

so much doing this inquiry and i think i think this is why we need to get to the truth because what you're dealing with here is that you know in a few years to tell you where there are children will just be doing commerce on the internet on electronic media that that's the future if you don't if you don't have a safe environment to do that. you're going to face big problems so this is not just a privacy and human rights issue this is a commercial issue and people are going to want to answers because they're suddenly going to find that these allegations need some balance of because they want a more stable environment for electronic communication i cloud thank you very much so folks take on the day for today's program. is stick to the basics that support today and guess what cutlery and british labor n.e.p. and they had a good european delegation to washington. was to clear out n.s.a. spying over the e.u. nations that's not watching we'll see you in the next edition.

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