no legitimacy for political retribution can morsi get a fair trial for the military backed government the trial is key to showing its plan for transition towards democracy how sound of a plan is this and what message does this trial send to the muslim world. to cross not the situation in egypt i'm joined by in washington he's an egyptian political activist and in pittsburgh we cross to greg roman he's a former israeli official in the ministry of defense and ministry of foreign affairs right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i'm very much encouraged to go to washington first should be in washington the trial has been adjourned it started it's already been adjourned it's been described by morsy supporters as illegal unfair unjust and unconstitutional how do you react to that well first thanks for having me on your show. we can't judge this trial and call it unfair when it hasn't started yet yesterday we had the

first hearing but there are signals on there are signs that we have seen that may make us believe that this is turning to be a political feud and this is what we don't need to see at this point the current provisional government has been backing or or has been backed by the military and this is a yucky situation for the military which is supposed to be. more independent. i personally believe that the trial could have been postponed until the roadmap gets. accomplished there are clearer steps to where we can please egypt back on democracy. finishing the constitution holding a parliamentary and presidential election and then we you know the elected government. and that newly elected government could have been in power like this

would take place ok ok greg and pittsburgh i mean i saw the pictures of the trial was held for a very short amount of time it was a fiasco and it turns it looks like a political vendetta is this what this trial is going to be all about and we'll talk about if it is a vendetta and what kind of legitimacy does it have go ahead oh the most legitimate institution in egypt right now is the judiciary they were able to go through a full trial an appeals process to take on hosni mubarak for the crimes that he allegedly committed during the two thousand and eleven uprising and now you see the crimes of the muslim brotherhood being put on trial and if they are found guilty there may be an appeals process there may be another acquittal where we really have to understand each of today's on the backdrop of the political process and reformation that's going on by the military backed provisional government sagging economy a weakening tourism industry terrorism being strewn throughout the sinai peninsula and on the backdrop of all these issues egypt has to be able to stand firm not just

within its own political influx which is currently going on but also in its relations with the rest of its neighbors in the region and around the world but while mohamed morsi may be the centerpiece for judicial joyous prudence right now in egypt but this must be taken within the context as the previous speaker had said within the provision of the new government and also within the context well no greater than what the for this trial is going on it's already started ok i think you know maybe it should have been different but we've already started this game here and greg i would go back to you i mean this judiciary that you're talking about was at war with morsi during the entire time he was in office before he was ousted so do you have still confidence in the judiciary when you had a force that was appointed by the former president i mean i don't see that they got along very well and there's no reason to believe they're going to get along very well now. within the context with the judiciary's independence a touche and poor from this the government. we have to take in the context is that

to do just that put hosni mubarak on trial is now putting another former president on trial and the fact is that the individuals who are part of that establishment on its way into any political allegiance no one makes a tough week or of the r.c.c. or any of the other political powers and outlaw if the judiciary what they are doing is showing that they have independence as was done in the portside massacre during the fourteen death sentences that they were given out there in the last football ok the ultra conflict that took place about a year ago ok and they have shown only that whatever. the security forces that killed protesters since the coup are they being put on trial is very much indeed investigation into that there are there are. believes that. or hopes that morsi should be getting a fair trial now. with the military being in this situation it's not helping the military the military needs to go back to the actual job that the

military should should be doing which is protecting the nation from any external enemies now i don't actually see. every eason for why we are speeding to go through this trial mubarak it took us eight months to put him on trial we could have waited for for a couple of more months until a newly elected government would be in and power. i honestly believe that whatever happened yesterday is just adding more to the fuel of the follow ization that is happening in egypt. this is taking us away from what needs to happen which is. the asian and going through a transitional justice. which which is strongly needed at this point to get great you know ever since you know the fall of mubarak we had a number of elections in egypt and the result kept being the same and you know what that result is i mean how do you square the circle you want to have

a digital fairy but you don't want to have a democracy even if you don't like the outcomes you don't you don't accept them and then you turn to the military to overturn it i mean that's a cul de sac for any kind of society moving towards democracy isn't it it's not when the democratically elected forces and people who they put in power abuse democratic institutions we saw president morsi suspend the constitution we saw him try to take absolute rule and power away from the military we saw him fired on tali and put all sisi in place and he essentially went against any constitution that was being drafted and in doing so he was trying to empower his majority that was in the lower house of parliament and eventually he would try to maintain absolute power just because a political party uses democracy as a way to get elected does not mean that they have the authority to absolve them of credit institutions once they are in power and that's why the job. third coup took place there's a certain marker which goes in terms at least your trial democrat lisa cholodenko

that's progress there if i go back to washington so do you think that the egyptian military is just going to crowd out the political field because apparently there's going to be an election and i think we all know who is going to be elected and he may be the only candidate to run are you asking my personal opinion pete go ahead yeah i don't i don't think i don't think jenaveve at the i.c.c. should draw and the upcoming presidential election i think he is strongly needed as a military general he is strongly needed as somebody who can defend this country from. any anything that might damage the political and the democratic process. again this should be and you know then today it is the decision of the gyptian people if the i.c.c. wants to run he may he may resign from his post and join the political arena

and the people will decide who would be the next president but i'm saying my personal opinion i think the country needs a more to be the head of this military greg you think the military in egypt is a big country and a big country it's very diverse and it's very very divided great can the military bring democracy to egypt i think they can do they show that they were able to bring democracy in the first round unfortunately those who were elected decided to abuse democracy and around this time i think they will have learned from the inability of certain forces within religion and politics and having the sort of cross divide between islam ism and political islam being in within the egyptian parliament in the egyptian presidency that the new constitution and the drafting maybe of the third time to actually get it right so you think that islamic party should be banned from the political process in egypt. it's not what i think it's with an objection people think but what you thought it was right now were put on notice there's a white a few protesters out there for the ousted president i mean what this trial is

showing is the great the great divisions within the country here he still has support maybe not a majority but it's still significant so do you how do you feel about that in washington what is the role of political islam in the political process now is going to be completely shut out and i'm looking at the muslim brotherhood here. i think i think it will it will not benefit liberals to to keep slimmest away from the political scene it gives them more sympathy it gives the most more support i honestly believe that the muslim brotherhood they have lost most of their grassroots most of the support during that one year of of the ruling of mohamed morsi because the they were placed under the test and they did not deliver so bringing. stomach parties on top you know on the table having them participate in the political scene is not

a bad think actually it it works out well or it worked out well for four for the liberal voices during that last year because you just can't. speak with the religion or with the name of god for four for longer you may you may win one election with that but it's not it's not going to deliver jobs to people it's not going to deliver. food and shelter it you know people now in egypt the realize that voting for that i politician who gives the who who may provide the better policies is what they will go for but you know keeping them and keep keeping islamic groups in the dark and allowing them participate in the political scene will backfire ok gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with r.t. . wealthy

british scientists are. not on the tirelessly. margetts why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in these kinds of reports. a place it was a muslim very hard to take out plots against long there is

a plug hat that has sex with the perfect hair plugs let's call it. lifts the first stimulus plan lists lists lists of the people.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the political turmoil in egypt and the trial of mohamed morsi. ok great i have to go back to you in pittsburgh we just heard at the end of the first part of the program here about the nature of political islam in the democratic party process does it worry you more that the brotherhood won't participate any longer in the political process and you know they've been there for decades and they they thrived under a dictatorship maybe that's what's going to happen now if they're excluded from the political process in the future because there's every likelihood that's going to be

the case. right but the muslim brotherhood since its inception was always sort of a pressure valve to allow the regime regardless of if it was at the beginning of the egyptian republic or until today when we see the army once again having oversight over the provisional government to allow the forces in power the sort of actors in the corner of pressure valve to be able to control what was going on on the street you saw that the muslim brotherhood besides its political prowess also ran extensive social welfare networks and religious institutions that didn't just provide handouts to the needy but had educational systems their own institutions for political indoctrination and eventually as the previous speaker said when they get the power that's when the true challenge affects them now if we have the muslim brotherhood outlawed as a movement which is what is currently on track to happen in egypt it's not going to be because of their political positions it will be because of the violence that they incited during the july uprising that took place against president morsi and

also in the subsequent aftermath of the outside the red mosque and some of the other violent incidents that they well i'm glad you are shelling if i go to washington it what about the violence that the regime commits against protesters it seems very one sided at this point you know this actually and you know egypt is taking its very first and strong steps towards democracy in the last three years we saw two ex presidents being you know accountable for their. decisions and for what they did to do the gyptian people but we still have a lot of questions on whether every institution in egypt will be questioned or will be accounted you know accountable for the for the actions against that include the military and those that i don't salute the military because mubarak was thrown under a bus five military. wasn't about to remove the s. and the oil is the military that threw him under a bus they decided to get rid of him not the people protesting against him this is

what i'm getting at i mean accountability i mean i find it really interesting is you have egyptian liberals where their voices right now are they behind the tanks. well i mean i will not go as far as saying that they are behind the tanks but i would say that every institution in egypt should be should be held accountable including the military nobody is above the law and ever since the twenty fifth of january revolution. the rules has been set and you cannot think that you are above the law you cannot think that people will not judge you one day now but isn't a military man when he says it isn't the military acting that way right now just last week we have the military saying terror is not an area saying that there should be no public criticism of the military in egypt i mean counted belittle this is my god going to go well that's not and that will not settle well with gyptian

perhaps you know it may it may appear that it sells well with them now but with with and with the months. you would promise you that it's not going to continue people cannot go back egypt will not go back to to to the dark days where where we could not speak up or where we could not. question the leader of our country now this is again brings us to whether the military wants to play that political role or not because being being you know in the political role in egypt it's like being on the hot seat people will judge you people will question you people will hold you accountable i don't i don't want the military to be in this place that's why i'm always calling for speeding up the process handing over to an elected government this will will. save or or will

hold the in danger of of having the military interfering in the political arena great how confident are you that and we just heard and i jumped in to want to go backwards they don't want to go back to living under dictatorships ok maybe you're both right this is a transition but you know the recent past doesn't bode well for the future ok because once you have power what is it you know the appetite comes at the eating you think the military is going to let go and number two can they deliver on all the things that you mentioned earlier in the program like unemployment jobs food inflation energy etc etc can they do that are they good at it or are they should should they be a speed in the barracks protecting the nation's borders. in the first round of the egyptian revolution we saw a ton tawi the former defense minister take over for the supreme council of armed forces we saw morsi elected and then we saw tonto he fired by morsi and put into an adversarial position afterwards in this next round we saw morsi abuse his power as

mubarak has abused his but there are several key differences of how the military is involved with this regime versus how it was involved with the mubarak regime and the previous regime under mubarak most of brotherhood members and dissidents were put under military trials they were locked away in dark prisons and there was no knowledge of where they were being held and the trial process right now for morsi we know what prison he's in he's received two foreign delegations of foreign dignitaries visiting him and it's also been allowed familial visits so just in the way that the trial is being conducted between mubarak and morsi well it's a stark difference is that no one wanted side effects when struggling as out public relations that's all is it public relations too for washington no it's not public relations whatsoever if the army was interested in maintaining power and we saw that their public relations with washington didn't work out since the aide was suspended but going back to that point of whether which is the public relations

coup they could have simply put him behind all tora prison with the military tribunals said to him as he was previously said and for the wadi not to imprison the outbreak and then afterwards seeing that he would go into a dark hole never to be heard from again ok it's not our interest it's going to go to washington the issue of aid was brought up here and i think this is why the trial is to show that the egyptians are on the right path quote unquote as we heard from secretary of state kerry. if i go back to washington here what about aid from washington and let's talk about the aid that egypt is getting now from gulf countries particularly saudi arabia the now the one to end cairo has a as a comfort zone because if washington wants to play politics and i think all three was agree washington is on a very deep horrible job in dealing with the situation in egypt but you know the egyptians can leadership can just turn to saudi arabia for a blank check i mean that's pretty nice for the military. well let's take it step by step pete first i don't really think that the u.s.

has any. effects whatsoever in whatever goes on in egypt after the twenty fifth of january it's the egyptian people who are deciding so unlike what people in the opposition may claim that the u.s. is backing morsi you know we used to hear liberals saying that when was he was in power and now we hear people from from the muslim brotherhood claiming that the u.s. is backing in c.c.m. backing the military i honestly believe that the u.s. . did not. support any president after mubarak or any egyptian leader after mubarak ever since the twenty fifth of january the u.s. had been just playing the role of the watcher the viewer. perhaps this is how can you make larry that inequality when at length i go back to greg i mean israel and saudi arabia are very very keen on this regime in cairo

right now would you agree or disagree with that. i would say that their position regardless of the relevancy towards what's going on in cairo right now is positive i mean saudi arabia and israel on two separate sections are probably at their best relations with egypt now since july third the amount of security cooperation that's going on between israel and egypt is unbelievable according to what's going on with the shutdown on hamas right now and the saudi financing of the current regime is really proving to be the backbone of keeping the egyptian economy afloat but the reason why they're doing that is not really i think there is an advantage in a highly interested in egyptian democracy though is that what the people want because saudi arabia and israel prefer to deal with dictators in egypt it's been their tradition it's worked out well for them that's that's that's completely incorrect mohamed mohamed morsi the go she aided the ceasefire by himself between

hamas and israel a democratically elected president of egypt negotiated a cease fire between both two opposing forces one he was our with the islamist hamas and what israel that he saw was in his best benefit to have peace between those two movements only three weeks after he negotiated that cease fire did he abuse his democratic privileges by absolving the constitution and trying to take absolute power that's where his downfall began ok let's go to washington with that justify the coup then to justify the removal of morsy from power actually i had a question for for craig and you know does craig find it interesting that. you know there are national newspapers egyptian national newspapers that the the about every day on the front page of the newspaper. the claim that israel is still backing. the muslim brotherhood another not the other way around so the current government the claim it's it's the other way around it's not it's not that sort of this is

backing this current government it's it's backing mohamed morsi and backing the muslim brotherhood. greg that was addressed to you if you want to react to that that's completely. sure that's completely false we just we just saw the visit of secretary kerry to cairo and in the discussions that he was having there was how can the egyptian government the provisional government that's in power right now help the palestinians and the israelis move closer to the peace agreement through the negotiations that are going on right now any suggestion that israel backs the muslim brotherhood ran government over its natural partners in the egyptian liberal opposition and the military opposition the militants among smoking and the military at and the military who they often work with on the borders is preposterous sorry gentlemen we've run out of time to complete one thing and i think it's way in washington and in pittsburgh and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember.

you want to. think of something that is quite simply a mess. was no way over. clearly they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. and sold to us and turned over to the us for. the soul that could be buried alive. was saved with great effort. into a wanted to turn me into

a terrorist so it was they wanted me to admit that i was a member of al qaeda and the taliban and that i fought with them. not about time i didn't even know what al qaeda is nevertheless there are people. brave enough to start a fight. something's going to be done that's going to be done by me and it's been our short amount of time to do it but it's going to impact me i'd be prosecuted but it's going to impact. the wife my daughter. the one time i'm a trapped monarchy. the deepest lake in the world. usually there no more than fifteen thousand years old this one dates back twenty five. spirits and buddhist gods live here.

the pure clear water in the lake is helping scientists unravel the mysteries of the universe her i tried to see by cal in its entirety. it's not that i have discovered something new here rather. but i absorb everything that this place offers. the spiritual. eye you willing to engage yourself in a debate when you would be pressing not only of war legalisation of cannabis in ireland but that can pay me for the abolishment of those punishments and say united arab emirates well look we've seen what their own situation here forced to and we've seen with the country's easiest to solve well the countries that you mentioned there it's an even bigger problem and i would be opinion and of the opinion that she's actually union rice to consume what you want so long as it isn't

happening all there so this is actually a bigger issue and then kind of. the suffering that i have over my own body. exactly what happened that day i don't know but a woman yeah killed. fears later is when i got arrested. for a crime or did not do. we have numerous cases where police officers lie about polygraph results. and people to trust the police officers don't beat people anymore and it just doesn't happen really. in the course of a target you should why because there's been this is a light moment no because the psychological techniques are more effective in obtaining confessions than physical abuse they were often they could do what they

wanted they could say what they wanted and there was no evidence of what they did or what they said. if you. knew you got no opportunity. you start to construct your own. olympian bit gives don't want to be gangstas in a lot of. drug deals they don't want to blow with all the time that the kid came to be we can see. you just needs a hundred dollars and i was in the hood and with a thirty round clip. but it felt like. i said. i don't want to die i just really do not want to die young young a. deliberate

torch is on its epic journey to such. a one hundred twenty three days. through two thousand nine hundred towns and cities of russia. relayed by fourteen thousand people or sixty five thousand killings. in a record setting trip by land air sea and others face. alleged victoria treeless. on r t r c dot com. looked right on the scene. of the first strike. and i think pictures. on our reporters twitter. and instagram. posts. could be in the know. on.

the fifth of november which many will remember scuffles in london between police and protesters is the anonymous movement anti corruption rallies will. why. georgia signs up its military to more years in afghanistan to boost its chances of nato membership we speak to both supporters and troops families who say their loved ones have already paid in blood. and reaching for the stars these thought she winter olympic torch prepares for liftoff and its first ever space walk. and i welcome you watching our.