because it had small traces of sugar in it i tried to eat it but i couldn't. credibly heavy bombing. it was a direct hit on that very shelter and everyone was buried underneath. all of them. hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle negotiations continue but that has not stopped the blame game from raging we were told around in

the western powers were on the verge of leaving agreement regarding two rounds nuclear program then the talks stalled into the familiar stalemate the enemies of diplomacy appear to have the upper hand is war the only option left. to cross off the ground i'm joined by my guest michael c. hudson in washington he is the director of the middle east institute at the national university of singapore and he's a professor emeritus at georgetown university also in washington we have gareth porter he's an investigative journalist and author of the upcoming book manufactured crisis and in paris we cross to emanuel to he is the president of the institute for perspective and security in europe originally cross-talk rules in fact i mean you can jump in anytime you want to go to you first weigh in on the blame game who's at fault here because we were told right at the weekend there's going to be an agreement and then i'll go to emanuel and then we all who are told the french you know threw in the monkey wrench what you're reading. well i think we

have two problems not just one clearly the government of france was involved in an effort to throw a monkey wrench into the talks on saturday apparently after the french foreign minister had signed off on a unified text for presentation to iran he then went on radio and gave this interview in which he referred to a con game talked about these two issues and said that he was not. satisfied with the text in regard to those issues that is iraq and the disposition of iran's twenty percent enriched uranium stockpile so so definitely there was a problem with france doing a very unexpected turnaround on this issue. and saying no once it had agreed and then i think the united states clearly has to share the

blame here because there was a an issue which we don't quite understand precisely the situation regarding the differences in the text but the united states was apparently leading iran to believe that there would be some kind of recognition implicit or explicit of its right to enrich in the text and this turned out not to be the case i think the iranians actually took advantage of the french monkey wrench if you will to say wait a minute let's take another look at this ok ok this is one of the things i want to get it is no because it looks like neither side won on the green emmanuelle a lot of people are saying i'm not but this is what i'm reading is that the french decided to change their position decided to sabotage it because they'll get future arms deals with saudi arabia and the prime french president is visiting israel soon

how do you react to those two issues. well that's one position another position is taking consideration that france was a bit. upset not to be associated in the beginning by the beginning with a negotiation as we all know a lot of abuse was not on the same track as senate so it is to carry and of course . that's off some. of the children or have also spoke about one event i don't know if it's quite clear in the united states that a certain number of pressure coming from israel have been operating operating very harshly doing the general the. discussions one general times of a journalism spoke directly saying that binyamin netanyahu one directly off abuse that if the deal was a bad deal then they would be immediate. by israel on the such

a number of. nuclear plants ok michael it sounds like there was that's extortion right there ok it's only a good deal for israel agrees it's a good deal we all know that they don't want any deal whatsoever but i think it looks like a bit of an embarrassment for the secretary kerry and i think president again lama i think i think they thought that yes i think they thought that it was going to work why did he take the trouble to go all the way to geneva to meet with these guys and there's no doubt that there is heavy pressure not just from the israelis but also from the saudis and other gulf countries warning the americans not to go too far but i think it is a bit embarrassing the they thought they had something in the can and them the french seem to have really thrown a monkey wrench and the iranians i agree with gareth said well maybe the americans were backing off on what they had at least implicitly promised to the iranians

during the time. orks ok ok i think because it looks like it gets down to enrichment here again you have the united states and maybe france here just can't get there you know under the nonproliferation treaty they have the right to enrichment but again the exception to the rule is always around this is what it looks like they don't want to agreement because if enrichments there they don't it's in their quote unquote d.n.a. as i've read recently that you can't trust a ram that's the implicit explicit message from washington. well i think the the problem with the right to enrich here is both more and less than what it is made to appear on one hand look the the real the real situation is that the that secretary kerry does not believe that iran can be deprived in real terms of the ability to enrich which means that in fact they cannot be deprived of the right to enrich. that there's no question about that what the united states is

actually doing here is is keeping this negotiating leverage if you will for a later phase of these negotiations i mean this is kind of a negotiating tactic that really is in a way below what the united states ought to be contemplating at this point it's not necessary and it's really conveying a message to iran that we intend to try to pressure you to the maximum in a later phase of the talks and the question for iran then arises is the united states really committed to the kind of end game that was understood when they began this round of talks and i think that iran may in fact be wondering now whether that is the case i think that's the real danger of the nation it's a emmanuelle is the west serious about dealing with iran here because it looks like

the agreement of the tenant of lee had looked pretty good i mean it was a baby step but it was about building confidence and trust we don't even have that at this point. well as we say it's vital to have a deal there no deal at all that's the first point and the second point is that there is a clear commitment that we should have made in geneva and i think what my colleagues are serious quite true is that science has played a quick game in this in this in this is in disarray isn't first it has been sort of it has disarray did it redated itself from the european posture that's the first danger as we all know germany was willing to have a deal at any cost first of all because after the genius of five plus one talks it would be the geneva two talks and we need a clear commitment both by russia and by iran and that was one of the things which can be declination of the previous geneva talks and the second point that

maybe is important to raise is the fact that. france is was really upset and i think mr phone affairs did a single poster saying that he again took the floor without any consultation with its european partners that is not to say that european partners did not feel that maybe the deal was not so. what could have been could have been a motivated what i want also want to act is at sorry is the fact that there is a clear bargain which is made in iran between the reformist and the conservatives and if there is no deal at all during the next six months then the power of president when you will be very much. in jeopardy will be very much in danger so i think that is the first mistake we made not to have made for

not having made to support agreement michael i can see you nodding your head are you agreeing with out there because the window of opportunity is going to is already started to close go ahead. well i agree i agree but i would like to emphasize that i think what has happened or rather what has not happened is really very serious because now there is an opening for the forces that are opposed to any kind of rapprochement with between iran and the larger partners to exert their influence in a very tangible way and certainly that's true here in washington where you'll find that the the congress republicans of course strongly pressured by the israel lobby are going to be trying to impose new sanctions to really scuttle what remains of this process of gareth i mean if this is the very end it if i get it before we go to the break here i mean what role did the as the the israeli lobby play in all of

this because there was a lot of background noise disease negotiations were going on. well i don't think the israeli lobby exerted any direct i mean if you're talking about a pac and the lobby in the united states i don't think they played a direct role in this the situation in france of course is that israel's influence is exerted in a very different way from the way it is in the united states there's a group a very tight knit group close to the foreign minister around the foreign minister and the president who are really have been guiding the french policy in the direction of both the neo conservative position the united states and of course the israeli israeli interests for the last five years or so since the election of sarkozy in two thousand and seven it's really the same group that has been exerting this influence and that has not changed and i think it is indeed an affiliation or close close relationship with israel rather than the prospect

of arms sales to the to the gulf sheikhdoms that was involved here clearly as was suggested earlier this this phone call from netanyahu. or the meier had beebs the member of the national somebody threatening. an attack by netanyahu you know was was are you gentlemen here i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the rest stay with our.

wealthy british science holds the time to write. for their. markets why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in these kinds of reports. is obviously more for the ladies because it's pink. women wanted to avoid rape they really needed to buy guns environ how to use them i'm. sure this is the one that i want to go with them once again it's the fear that all women are definitely the target of the gun lobby and you don't kill them when the killing money but if somebody would you would piss with her. i've noticed that more and more is this really scary marketing tactics which implies that women have some sort of moral obligation to town guns to protect their family and young girls shoot out here too

so we do have a pink or. more kids young kids choke on food than are killed by firearms if being armed made us safer in america we should be the safest nation on earth were clearly not the safest. exactly what happened that day i don't know but a woman killed. piers later is when i got arrested for. for a crime i did not do. we have numerous cases where police officers lie about polygraph results. and people to consent to the police officers don't beat people anymore i mean it just doesn't happen really you know in the course of interrogation why because there's been this is like meant no because the psychological techniques are more of the. in obtaining confessions and physical

abuse they were off taking they could get what they wanted they could say what they wanted and there was no evidence of what they did or what they said. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing negotiations with iran on its nuclear program. it may well go back to you in paris so if i to ask you a question all three of you a question israel doesn't want to. taunt detente between washington and because that will include agreement among other members of the un security council

that makes the likelihood of an israeli attack on iran much less and this is what the israelis are afraid of they want to keep force on the table and i give them a lot more wiggle room any kind of agreement with the internet in the real international community and people that make the decisions makes war a tougher option for the israelis do you agree or disagree with me. yes i was saying that i was agreeing on what you've just said and also what your colleagues said you have to have in mind that minister fun of iran is that if it was imposed last week and everything was made so it was a low profile visit which was a shame because it was a news story corps visit but that's that's one issue the second issue is you speaking about a sort of is very low be there is more a neoconservative lobby very active in the ministry of foreign affairs the iranian dilemma the iranian agenda is under the hands of

a certain number of neoconservatives diplomats and they still have their hand on the issue so again that is a hard pressure on our minister found affairs and to respond directly to your question to the question you raised you have to have in mind as you mentioned that minister of interior is. just came back from israel that the president will be going in israel the seventeenth of november and of course we have to have in mind that there is a game change inside the israeli power stakeholders the minister of foreign affairs of gottlieb in money women will be definitely wanting to have a more harder line on this so again it's very. evident that israel was has me may have used france in order to do a show force and sure that there isn't there should not be a stall game in this or not be

a bad agreement again as you mentioned it not only on the iranian agenda but on the plutonium agenda one of the issues that was raised by a lot of abuse is that we were very afraid of the. reopening of the reinforcement of the iraq plant which is not a vote on the imams i think you know very manual a manual of iran's just some. and another under even with the i.a.e.a. for more and more inspections the most inspected country in the history of the i.a.e.a. so i'm sorry what if the french position is just nonsense ok i'm sorry gareth you want to jump in go ahead i'm not defending and i know i know you i know you know i know you're not going to any and i know you're not defending it ok let's make that clear go ahead gareth jump in. i was going to peter i was going to address the the question of the use of force because i think that there's a danger that the israelis can convince at least some people in the international

community that it is serious about an attack and that that is going to exert some influence on the talks and that would be extremely unfortunate because i am quite convinced and have been for the past nearly the past year that the israelis that netanyahu in particular has been using the threat as a ploy to influence the united states the europeans the the russians or the chinese to be much tougher on iran of course to pass the most harsh sanctions imagine gary gary years later this is op right there gary stop right there let me ask you how much more tough can you get on iran beyond going to war. explain to me ok really well i mean you can. tell you exactly what you can do and this is what the neo conservatives in the united states are threatening to do which is to pass sanctions which do not have any national security waiver which is the way in which

the president can in fact to get out of this mess which is to agree that he will in fact use the national security waiver to prevent those sanctions from going into effect as part of a deal that's what they can do and that's what the israelis are now trying to bring about of course michael what where is diplomacy right now because it seems to me they didn't and that there's been a concerted effort they have succeeded and it's the party of war now that prevails ok israel and its friends won a major victory here and the western powers look hopeless it's quite amazing here wag the dog go ahead michael well you know peter you're absolutely right and this was a quite a lost opportunity and i was looking at the somewhat rambling text of secretary kerry's remarks in abu dhabi where he was in a sense backpedaling a bit trying to assure the gulf cooperation council allies and certainly israel that in fact as they put it all options are on the table so here we were

going back in a very convoluted way to to a rather more hawkish position so clearly i think the bomb administration was thrown on the defensive and i really do believe that obama and the people in charge you know don't want to get another conflict going in the middle east considering what we've gone through with iraq and afghanistan but now the pressures are being exerted a new and we will see whether the obama administration is going to wobble or is going to be forced to wobble by a conservative congress ok emmanuelle it seems like there's no clear voice. coming out of the west this is a very important issue because this is really the issues of war and peace here and we're going down the path that we saw with iraq again this country doesn't have nuclear weapons everybody knows that ok there's no they're not even close to any

kind of breakout level but it sounds like the drums of war two thousand and three all over to me again go ahead emmanuel. i'm not sure first of all because i'm not sure france is convincing is sufficiently convincing for its european partners such a one issue bed made not have been too in the past but it's great to now as we mentioned there's been a clear decide to do it is asian between germany and great britain at least during the geneva talks and of course you have to also have in one hundred talents we're not on the same track as the french that's the first point the second point is we have to take in consideration as you mention it there is at the moment that we're speaking. the venue of the director of the a a in so that's an agreement was achieved in that's in that sense and we also have to have in mind the arising of the twentieth of november when there will be again

negotiation it will be a lower profile but there would still be negotiations to be again very honest i'm not defending by any way france's posture i do think it is a wrong post too because we need to have confidence building measures towards iran but on the same aspect of things we also have to link what happened in geneva what will happen in the next week and we need also. again france is very weakened by its poster because it is going to genius for the syrian talks again not on the same track as it's a partners ok garrett where are we going on this here ok now on the twenty or the twenty there's going to be more talks lower a lot of also i mean is the steam out of this thing and everyone's just going to continue playing the blame game go ahead. well i was just going to say i agree with your with what has just been said by my colleague but i also would add that what is

really important here is that the so-called confidence building measures are linked to an end game this is what the iranians have been saying all along from the beginning and as i read what the secretary of state and others have been saying in recent days. there's a real question whether the united states is fundamentally committed to an end game where the united states is in fact going to remove all the sanctions in return for very stringent controls over the nuclear program of iran that is to say the level of enrichment the kind of investment and of course the very stringent monitoring system by the i.a.e.a. which the iranians are willing to do the question is whether united states wants to or is willing to give up this what it regards obviously as a leverage over the iranians in the form of the sanctions the israelis don't want them to do it and i'm afraid the there is

a temptation here for the united states to to try to use this leverage to the hilt and perhaps to sacrifice the possibility of of the kind of deal that it could get so i think that's the real issue that is posed by the next round well it seems to me michael fine go to you with this did the ring on the part of the west would give iran every reason to want to build a nuclear weapon now ok it gets inverted ok if you can't make a deal you can't negotiate then what do you do you defend yourself go ahead. well i think that the more hard line elements of the revolutionary guards in iran may you know may agree with them there is a kind of a strategic logic at least at a certain level although you would think that a broader level iranian security is not really going to be guaranteed by having one or two bombs on the contrary it may in sight make it or others to attack it

but i but i think the you know the larger problem here is the possibility of even a kind of a cold deal between the united states and the. big powers and iran would amount to a kind of diplomatic revolution across the middle east and that is something that there are so many entrenched interests well in there and there are plenty of countries there that go want that to happen they just don't want to happen not happening have happened i was thinking to new the instability here gareth that made you the last word go ahead jump in what what i want to say earlier but didn't have a chance to say was that there's a lot of posturing here really phony posturing about the issue of iraq and iraq a cave the heavy water. reactor that the iranians have not brought on line they're very far from having brought on line and the idea that this represents a proliferation risk which is constantly referred to in the news media is really

quite bogus and the reason is that iran has no ability to reprocess the plutonium that will would be produced by such a reactor and indeed has even already made it clear in the talks that it's prepared as part of a deal to have arrangements where the whereby the the plutonium would be removed so that it can't even be reprocessed so this is really a bogus issue ok that's one of the reasons why the french intervention all right gentlemen way to end on the word bogus here thank you very much many thanks to my guests in washington and. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our deep see you next time and remember. the a.

margy dot com is launching a special project to mark the appalling scale of violence in iraq. we want you to know. if you. got the opportunity. to start to construct your own. kids don't want to be

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be. an investigation into the murder of afghan civilians allegedly involving american soldiers is abandoned after the u.s. denies access to suspects we hear from a journalist who says he's got proof u.s. soldiers to blame the special forces and their translators were indeed responsible for these man's fate. the sanctions stay america prolongs the state of emergency and its relations with iran and some want even tougher restrictions despite attempts to seal a nuclear agreement. have been the british citizen for at least thirty years in this country we meet a man who was targeted by a controversial british government campaign to weed out illegal immigrants our top stories.