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hello and welcome to cross talk for all things considered i'm peter lavelle since the start of the arab spring there have been hopes of change and the creation of a better future so i believe this is not been the case would be a bomb to democracy by nato is breaking up and on the verge of a civil war in syria the civil war has ground down into a stalemate partition is the likely outcome it would appear the only winners are the forces backing instability. to cross-talk the evolving middle east i'm joined by my guess people come ready in london he is a writer and a journalist in new york we have michael kelly he is a defense reporter for the business insider and in colombia we cross to joseph he is a middle east expert currently at the university of south carolina or a german cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time one can people find go to you first in london it's not getting a lot of media coverage and in the west but it looks like libya is is falling into

another war a civil war this time on top of that we're told the pentagon wants to train about eight thousand libyans in a nato country so can you explain to me why did nato have to destroy the country and now it has to train its security forces well from american perspective the invasion to the overthrew of capacity was intervention light and now i think the decision to train libyans is too late too little there are simultaneous uprisings erupting all over libya and the government doesn't know whether it has to govern or suppress these uprisings so it's a it's a mess in libya ok with you if i can stay with you what's the next step if there's a civil war on the on the horizon. we can. tell right now i mean there are signs of a civil war already. but to what extent it will dissolve the state will dissolve it's not clear yet whether the american decision to intervene and to train the libyans what kind of an effect that will have on the ground is yet to be seen but

ok it's a little too late or maybe a little too early or josef i go to you in colombia i mean if we look right now that libya is a failed state i mean so what do you do i mean you train eight thousand troops whose loyalty is very unclear because loyalties in libya itself is very unclear and when the country is breaking up into three discrete parts right now so what is eight thousand troops going to do to salvage the situation in libya. well i think that they will not do anything good and i agree with you completely and you know i was very skeptical to start with about why there should have been any intervention from the outside in libya but you know i mean let's be honest about that it's easier said than done if you're not sleepy and you are outside of libya i really believe the gadhafi regime is of noxious as it was gave some stability to libya at least it seemed like that and what they had been in libya could have been handled in a different way but look at the already and now we talk about the next stage i agree with you we are in a civil war if that's what capello said there is absolutely right about that the

extent of civil wars is not to be measured of his certainly by the number of casualties but by the fact that there is a problem that cannot be result politically and people kill each other and of course it started now we stance of people it will go on to anthrax and maybe thousand got for it awfully not but that's the way it started in syria a country that we should talk about later here i don't believe that americans are in for anything good there in libya and if anyone asked for my advice i would tell them not to do anything but you know a bit of a don't ask for your advice or my advice that's for sure michael if i go to you i think i do have a good indicator of where this country is going and we look at the number of militias at the height of the force overthrow of gadhafi there were about fifty thousand members of militias now there are two hundred fifty thousand in the countries awash with arms i mean what in the world is going to happen next year this is one of the most dangerous countries in the world and we'll talk about syria in the next part of the program i mean this is a culmination of just everything that could go has could go wrong has gone wrong

for this country and the spillover effect for the region is beginning to be felt. yes religion is going to continue to fracture i mean you see normal nonviolent protesters in tripoli yesterday and continuing today telling the government to do something about all of these militiamen that are surrounding the city and being used for political means on all sides it looks like it's going to get worse before it gets better definitely couple but i mean i we heard i think you started out with intervention light humanitarian intervention light i mean this is turning into something far more than that nato broke the country through its bombing and it has left no infrastructure whatsoever for the country to govern itself and it's only look at it's only amount of time before we're going to see blowback here there's just too many arms too many people with different loyalties and we have a government that can't rule the country and you know what there's a lot of oil there so i suppose that will get attention. well what

happened there were no independent institutions in libya to begin with it was owned by a family it was owned who is owned and run by gadhafi but he brought an element of stability to the country when he was removed nato had a responsibility to go in and build institutions to assist the country in rebuilding itself if you will do you think they do you think it outweighs everything you think that was ever considered because as you pointed out using your words intervention light you know we just go in a little bit and we'll in the place will take care of itself will be a walk in the park if i can quote the vice president cheney when he talked about iraq i mean this is something that is not hard about ok and if you break it you own it don't you think it's not that's absolutely right and this is the this is the idea of going and doing something and feeling good about it that building nations nation building takes years and years and years and that requires treasure and blood and i didn't think any of the nato nations were interested in sending their money or their troops ok well even sending the expertise to rebuild

a country now they want to train a thousand troops and it's come so late it's almost it's almost a surgery to. one of the issues here is we have these militias some of them are or are fanatically religious islamic groups and they are going to be exporting not only are they spreading it in the country itself they're exporting it abroad and we look at mali and the connection with what's going on in syria as well i mean this is something again in the law of unintended consequences it's a death spiral when you think about it. well peter i agree with you completely i mean they're saying television from the outside in libya was not thought out very carefully and with a view to the future by those who intervened and they wanted to have a short term profits and benefits in the world profit is in place here because when you look for example at the role of say france french companies has done a lot of good to themselves since then not just in libya but in neighboring

countries and you can look also at the french intervention in mali in the context of what happened in libya an attempt by two different french president by the way sort of cause the end now we're all on the land to show that france has its own interests and policy and all that but look i mean the real problem is and i believe the capella started referring to all that is that there was nothing in libya before gadhafi was brought down because gadhafi wanted libya to have nothing other than his own the dream all this business of the german area you know the popular committees and so it was all nonsense of course it was a dictatorship and they also were with the tribes those who were loyal to him as opposed to others what happens in a civil war in a lot of country like they're not dissimilar by the way toward that in lebanon in the seventy's or what's happening in syria now or in iraq is that when the regime breaks down for this or that reason mainly because of the combination of external and internal factors interventions the loyalties got down to the most rudimentary fundamental level of loyalty which is the tribal the local the sectarian and libya

is not an exception and in any other a country like there thought in libya as well that will be slimy forcers there will be less or more fanatic like you waving syria and the export of these people from libya to other countries is obvious like it was from afghanistan and so on so i mean all these dangers are there peter and right now i can already only tell you look the safest prediction to do or to make about libya is it's going to gone ok michael and we need to win in there to save the libyan people and how do you think the people feel now what were they saved from. well they're very conflicted because in january two thousand and eleven when those protests started it was about delayed housing units and the months later they were around the same police headquarters in tripoli just protesting the government and now there's no state institution there's no government and you find these college students back out in tripoli protesting

the militias that replaced the government on the ground and have swelled to these amazing numbers roaming territory that they've just commandeered so i think that they are very conflicted in just devastated by the situation in their country. you said they were in the early in the program he said it was too late when i mentioned the training of libyan forces by the americans what should the outside world do now when in looking at libya anything because you sometimes doing something is worse i would say what nato did was far worse than what was there before it seems to me people on the ground were reflecting that on as well but i mean what should the international community do now to deal with libya other than contain it while the outside world when you say i think the responsibility to restore order in libya is it falls on the shoulders of the nations which brought about a great calamity. in order to restore in order to restore order they will have to

do a lot more than train eight thousand people this is again like intervention this is again on the cheap it will require a lot more it will require aid it will it will require expertise it will require bringing people to america training them it will it will require the building of institutions that will require it will take at least a decade or two to restore order in libya and it will be incremental but i don't think people do you think do you think that the united states and nato can ever you know earn any kind of respect from the libyan people no i mean at the top ten years is a long time when you're in a civil war. i know there are i know there are pockets of gratitude that we have to acknowledge that but i think there was a deteriorating security situation dissolves in libya and i think in order for them to back that gratitude they will have to do a lot more than give speeches in training telling people ok michael you want to jump in right before the break yeah i agree i think if the security situation is

moderately helped or fixed a lot of these protesters now they want these militias out of the capital so anything it will take a substantial effort but anything that people can help with expertise or are simply uplifting the state institutions the army that is decimated. would be great ok michael i have to jump in we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the arab middle east stay with r.t. . the only thing. is a. little .

bit like. you. like to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm sure. if you. got no opportunity. to start to construct your own little current. kuno want to be a bit give don't want to meet gangsters in a lot of. joy deal that they don't want to get well with all the time that the kid came to be we can see. you just made so over there i was like oh

probably the hook and what if you know somebody with the wrong kind of taking but it felt like. but i said what about that. i don't want to die i just really do not want to die young young. it was a. very hard to take a. chance again there was a plan by patton that sax would that hurt their feelings. about going. to.

see one of the people. welcome back to cross talk are all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing the evolving arab middle east. ok joseph we're going to switch gears here going to talk about syria right now the

the syrian national coalition has dropped its demand that assad must go how significant is that for you because for most of the if not all of the major opposition groups having assad go it's always been their key point to the point of just being abstinent in dealing with the peace plan that the russians and the americans of it least tried to at least russia has pushed very hard for you do you see an evolution joseph in this situation in syria when it comes to the opposition or is this this national coalition group just so we relevant now because of the rise of the fundamentalists there i would not i don't think that it is really significant the s. and c. the syrian national coalition is not important there never been reported by the way the forces on the ground read the ones which matter and the situation in syria is not getting better it's getting worse all the time i mean just in the last forty eight seventy two hours there were all kinds of clashes and losses to both sides one of the big labor leaders for kill there was

a huge explosion that killed many city had soldiers in their suburb of damascus who had our stuff so you can see that all these he's bringing up and continuing and quite frankly these peace conference if it ever happens will not succeed nothing can. can change the situation right now the civil war in syria is going to continue and they know it reminds me a knobby and i'm in awe of their and if i can say so i mean i was money thought. the lebanese equation of the syrian from the united seventy's and eighty's and all that was the third geneva conference about lebanon other was the second geneva conference about lebanon and i think came out of it because in a situation like that where the force is supposed to to each other you know it's like a fundamental clench for survival between differing forces has to be some kind of a decision on the ground in order to lead to a political decision and right now i don't think that there is going to be any real decision on the ground it's kind of if we both turn from football you know it's a throw and these throw can go on for quite some time and so long as that they're

out there i don't see any real possibility for a important significant political breakthrough whether it is in my name in geneva or any other place whether it is a russian or american plane but i'll make one point about the russians here and if i may quote myself because on the twenty eighth of january of twenty seven thousand i wrote its appeal that russia should play a positive role about the chemical weapons and they did and i'm very happy about that and the reason that they make that point theories that american ministration should have been in touch with the russians long time ago in order to facilitate some kind of a political arrangement when it might have been working right now i believe there is no real incentive for anyone to do something dramatic because bashar assad looks like he's winning but the opposition may claim that look we say we could turn sixty or seventy percent of the ground not exactly so it's kind of a draw and right now i'm not really optimistic about those that don't feel it's very interesting what we just have just said because maybe assad can't win the

civil war but it looks like he's making a lot more gains and the opposition is matter of fact more and more you read about what's going on with the rebels as they're turning on themselves more and more often assad may never get all of syria back when he's got a good chunk of it and he might be quite satisfied with what he has because you know i mean when your opposition is in a circular firing squad don't interrupt them just let them keep firing. you know they're killing each other and assad is just watching from the sidelines and he's making significant gains in aleppo today just recently one of the major rebel leaders. was killed he's making gains and the opposition which has been making significant demands of assad that he should step down or he should make concessions it's actually the opposition that has been making concessions first they said that they will not go to attend the peace talks in geneva now they say they will and their condition for that is assad should open up humanitarian corridors which he is so now they're using now the opposition which is ridden internally fractured is now depending upon its patrons in saudi arabia to attack assad's allies

for instance in lebanon today bombing syria has pointed the finger at saudi arabia . america wants iran out of the peace negotiations but really the country that is prolonging this war that is the core the cause of the instability is saudi arabia and it's it's absurd that saudi arabia is our ally in this region of the irony of ironies michael it's interesting that we met saudi arabia has been mentioned because we had secretary kerry say that the united states and saudi arabia agree on the ultimate goal he doesn't like to see exactly what the ultimate goal is anymore because i think washington's been a little bit red faced about assad must go because it's not going to happen but we do see two different trajectories here we have the american one which seems very blurry to me and saudi arabia is just going to do whatever it damn well pleases and it's going to continue fueling the war irrespective of the suffering of the people

of syria or the impact on the region because it's only looking at a ran well it is true that since august twenty third the gassing of. the americans chose not to intervene or even provide military support to the rebels anymore and really the base is this is a for one as joe said it is a foreign military conflict. and so when you have iran and russia backing assad and hezbollah forces inside syria fighting for assad shia militias trained in iran fighting for assad the saudi arabia sees this as. just as serious a conflict as iran does and so they're going to provide military backing other countries are going to military backing to counter that and so even people who have the true assistance to it has been it has been people talking time and just. saudi arabia has been traveling jihadism to syria long time before has been into the

picture saudi arabia has suppressed an operating in bahrain it has funded the brigades who today launched the strike the bomb attack on the iranian embassy have also launched attacks on israel in the same vein around has been on the ground in syria the last. anyone would realize to have a russian weapons and who's been nonstop showing there are so saudi arabia the most interesting to try and. clear that it's a proxy war you gentlemen gentlemen let me jump in here gentlemen let me go jump in ok here talking over each other ok joe what we just heard there talking over each other is this is turned into a proxy war it's very patently clear here these jihadi that are being funneled in through saudi arabia with turkey's help amazing they're going to really regret this one day if not already been funneling all these people foreign nationals into a civil war that everyone wanted to call a revolution and now it's just a proxy war which is taking the lives

a lot of people that do not like these foreigners in their country this is i'm glad you mentioned lebanon earlier because this is what it's going to get down to in my opinion a partition go ahead joseph. you know that i mean i'm kind of find myself in a kind of funny situation as it means that i really do intervene between the about and decide to do stuff that will have doesn't meant that any more look. it's the sushi war as they call it the sunnis and the shias and lead and lebanon and syria have become there are enough of this war whether it was started by the saudis or the iranians doesn't matter i'll just mention my little fact that maybe not everybody knows one of the main forces of fido logical inspiration for the airlie wabi movement way big is the famous syrian even tamia who is the one we issued the famous fatwa against the lights you know many of its of years ago so the saudis said that the legal situation here which is very obvious they don't want to see the syrian regime surviving with the iranian connection in all data but the fact of the

matter is that there are two conflicts that are in connected there is a syrian civil war the vast majority of the syrian people the sunni population they don't want our side than not going to like him in the future but there is also a proxy war as i said before the sushi war and it was said by michael before you know there are she volunteers or so from yemen even let alone from iraq and all that and of course hizbollah and the saudis have sending their own people and you know of course is going to on to everybody else it's going to spread it's already spread in three pilots now in beirut it will go on to maybe other places that's not good news but this is something which is now ten take because look it started by the syrian people they didn't want bashar assad the alawite with ated by the sunnis the sunni started by the alawite i mean i'm simplifying something which may be too complicated but that's the true story of this sect story is that there was and still is just there is a distortion for a new candidate it started. it started as

a limited but it started as a limited but genuine people's uprising and it was appropriated very early on by outside powers turkey saudi arabia and qatar qatar as a back step so turkey turkey is almost regretting its role because it's now it now has to deal with militants on its borders saudi arabia is funding them continuing to arm them it things it has a free it has a license to destroy syria and it's it's it's it's conduct is truly deplorable and it's astonishing that no one in the west has said that saudi arabia should get out of the syrian conflict ok michael in new york how do you feel about that became completely you know we don't there i must take up a result we don't have a big debate because the only debate between us will be when did it become not just to save a lot of a thought for an external what i agree with your look it's all interconnected but this is that middle of it is always been like that because you know really but this it was also interconnected so you know one cannot deny the fact that there is thirst before and foremost that was

a civil war it's now also an external regional problem and this thought she was you know it as its deep roots in israel and i think if they had a great interest is going to go to the extent that the previous i believe this and i did i think saudi arabia has played let's go to michael you want kind of the new yorker going and michael going to jump in. i mean right the reality is you can't put the blame going on how this started when people jumped in i mean you have backers on both sides and people there will benefactors on both sides but today that bombing in beirut that was claimed by and al qaeda affiliate in lebanon they said in their message that they will continue attacks until hezbollah and iran leave syria i mean that right there shows you how complicated this is and messy it is right now it's not a matter of a blame game because that is the conflict that is that is the reality on the ground is that you have all these interconnected things and they're they're interconnected within a military conflict a sectarian military conflict that can that has no end in sight really all right

gentlemen we've run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests in london new york and columbia and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember. live live.

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israel's prime minister heads here to moscow to convince russia that iran should not be trusted. another push to reach a nuclear agreement with. a new round of talks a with iran switzerland hopes that new deal could be close some more for me to say in just a few moments. the nature of a series of unprecedented. war games in crisis hit europe keeping troops busy after they withdraw from afghanistan. and auti investigates how japan's mafia is reportedly making money from the cleanup of the fukushima nuclear station providing and exploited workers to do the dirty bomb.