because. welcome to the rides conversations with great minds with dr alan lipman and sorry sold it after ellen levin is a clinical psychologist in private practice in new york an international speaker and has been involved with its spectrum of attentional disorders for over twenty five years their private practice dr lynn focuses on the high i.q.

adult and addles adolescent a.d.h. d. populations she specializes in identifying and treating complex presentations of a.d.h. d. may be misinterpreted or overlooked she's also the co-author of the book understanding girls with a.d.h. di sorry solon is a psycho psycho therapist who has worked with individuals couples in groups with a.d.h. the adults for over twenty five years she's also prominent in the national keynote speaker and trains and consults with other mental health professionals in assessing and counseling adults with a ph d. siri is also the author of the books journeys through adulthood discovery in a new sense of identity and many with attention to deficit disorder and the book women with attention deficit disorder which is also now available in spanish and all digital formats like ellen litman surgery sold i'm not going to have the yes. i've known you both for a while i don't care if you know you're in the show so just reveal this to our audience and as such both of you have absolutely fascinating. personal stories that

brought you to this. extent you might want to talk about it. or what you're doing what you're about to. start with well yeah i was searching for what was different about maybe my whole life basically right around the time i met you know i was working at a counseling agency for a special program for adults with learning disabilities and i started saying a lot of people and it was right around the early ninety's when i started to understand that maybe there was something with attention also why i wrote my book and what was so interesting for me personally and professionally was that the women all told the same story that no matter if they had the same organizational retention problems as the man or women had said shame and pain about not being able to meet those cultural gender role expectations and that's really what propelled me to write that book and to focus on that for the last twenty five years and in the process i did get diagnosed and did get helped through medication to stay awake you

know we talk about this stereotype you know little boy hyperactive acting out but millions of women are not understood and not helped because they can barely even stay awake. the girls are massively. they're not bother anybody they're people they're not bothering anybody often that colleges are after college when they will no longer be able to keep up with the demands even if they're really smart so they don't have to walk to later and this is your practice this is what you do what drew your attention interest. my specialty is girls and women i was originally looking into a situation that would be explain my son's behavior who had a very high i.q. but also had trouble sitting still started attending conferences. argued with the present there. girls were a.d.d.

want to be because i had him because he has seen lots of girls that do not present like boys but the diagnostic criteria based on young boys young hyperactive boys so our criteria and it up being about hyperactivity and so girls who are not hyperactive and more inattentive were being missed and now i think that what they're finding is that for adults it's one to one male to female so it's not yet one to one with girls or ideally it will be when we get even better at diagnosing and we've come a long way from. the seventy's and the hyperkinetic syndrome and find gold in the whole you know. number sixty nine or something so let's let's actually start with some definitions probably should start there to begin with what is.

well we know definitively now that it's a neuro biological disorder it's a difference in brain wiring i don't call it the disorder i think it's a horrible name that it has because it's just a difference and it's people self regulate in a different way they respond to stimuli in the environment in a different way and it's on a continuum and everyone has some of those symptoms and when it gets in your way then it's a problem and then maybe you seek help and that gets in your way part of the saree that's a big part of it is not cause you to go through the diagnostic criteria in front of just any random group of people i mean if you go to a bruce springsteen concert just let me tell you for three minutes or about most of the people who are going to raise their hand and say that's me but they're not necessarily every night and that's why it's so easily dismissed as every. this is

their key and everybody understands but it's the degree it's a very. this and it's getting in the way obviously you've always talked about finding the right. fit is what you what you want to do and i tell everybody whether you take medication or not the point is to make it easier for you to be who you are to embrace who you are to accept your differences so i think that's a false thing you have a blessed thing medication not if you're suffering internally a lot of adults just are suffering it's difficult to live with for some people with the severe pulls and pushes and not being able to manifest who they are. under achievement so treatment is really not about getting over you are conforming it's about understanding we all have different and how can we help you find a life that works for you basically that's how we view it now and this medication medication thing you know. back in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine.

were active and he asserted that it was just food. and you know the reason i run into a community for abused kids at that time and we had thirty eight kids we put about to find one of them responded and that kid had really bad psoriasis and feingold was a dermatologist you know so he was dealing with a population that was dermatological a challenge yeah you know some kids actually you know but it was such a minority and some kids respond really well the medication others some kids and same with adults what's what's the current state of think you know curious from both of you what's the current state of thinking. the evolution of medications we've gone from just the old you know i mean arguably it was benzedrine in the fifty's to you know to where we are now. telling the story thank you haven't gone much further they've refined those things but there's basically. ritalin based

drugs and there is dexedrine based drugs you know which is. sort of related to that . in their stimulants and i would be lying if i didn't say that the research does say that it works and that any intervention is more successful if you're also using medication but that being said. at least half the people in my practice choose not to use medication there are so many other interventions the more psycho education that you have the more that you understand how your brain works and the neurotransmitters that you're trying to balance there are so many ways that stimulation can be used to actually not just treat it but actually where you will thrive and is so i lean towards going with the strengths and weaknesses profile and there's a lot of ways to find a good fit between someone and their universe without medication these stimulant

drugs primarily kick up. the neurotransmitter associated with everything from cocaine to caffeine frank for that spectrum stimulant drugs there are other things that will kick up you know being happy kicks up trouble and being excited being being frightened i mean there's drinking caffeine. this is the situational stuff. i mean this individual for some people they can't get into that kind of positive cycle that is our hope for those people until they get that kick start and for some people they just need that along with the support in the guidance to find a life that works in that does kick in there and keep them more stimulated and get the support they need so that they can thrive yeah i think that you used to use the metaphor of classes. you know you. so it's but i mean some pretty difficult situation to live with internally you know where you want to tell drug. you've got

your glasses on you can see exactly but then you can see where you want to go and you can see what you need and for some people they're going to their brain is just too sleepy or just. something just like you know i feel like antidepressants really some people are going to need to be on that for a long time some people don't need it for ever but it's just one part of the puzzle but it's often necessary but not sufficient obviously situationally do you deal differently. with the in your practice the people you work with siri do you deal differently with people who present as the hyperactive people who present as the more passive form of. psychotherapy basically everybody has been hurt most people i deal with have not been diagnosed to adulthood they bring a lot of wounds with them that they're still dealing with and my goal is to help them heal those wounds to understand what those wounds are when they're reactivated now and what's really going on with them before they can even start to attempt to

construct a life that works often just have to figure out who is in a great sort of just kind of parts of themselves so it takes a while before some of that shame and avoidance and withdraw all those secondary effects is really what we see a lot of if you're just dealing with a. band you're doing pretty good it's usually about adults by this time i've accumulated so many confuse sense of who they are you know what they're good at. second grade teacher. i mean you know it's like all of this stuff ellen what what do you see is the most useful therapeutic. but i think that being a linear thinker is probably overrated and you know so i think that the idea of these medications helping you be more normal is not necessarily the goal i mean i don't have to tell you that there's you know we need hunters in the world. we

need farmers in the world so. it's more about reframing the way you see yourself i mean people see themselves with a lot of shame and say make me normal and that's not at all the goal the goal is like this is the way you do it and this is not the way other people do it but is that ok is that acceptable it is acceptable the only thing that really works is what works for you. and the more that people can embrace that and sort of just celebrate that their brains are different the more you know they're willing to you know just go with the idea that non-linear thinker you know come up with like the coolest ideas because you know they put together associations that linear thinkers don't know where it's been you know a lot of amazing people and over history who think in a non-linear way and they move the world ahead to do that and that you know because that reminds me people coming to see me nobody says i just want to be more of who i

am i also i want to get over who i am i want to get over this case of terminal uniqueness they want and that's why i talk about. minority mental health issue that was my original actual. focus was minority mental health and cross cultural counseling and i think i've been successful in this because as i've always viewed you when you go to a conference you see that i want to drill into. more of the nice conversations of great minds of doctors and serious soul. dramas the truth you know origin. stories others you know. for sure. oh oh oh.

from around the globe. i think. everybody. should you know the price is the only industry specifically mention in the constitution and. that's because a free and open press is critical to our democracy fred calibers. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the call for the takeover of our government and across the semi-colon we've been a hydrogen right hand full of transnational corporations that will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once i'm tom are going to get on this show we were to feel the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identify the problem try rational debate and a real discussion critical issues facing america if i ever feel ready to join the movement then walk a little bit. better

automatic conversations of the great minds i'm speaking with dr alan lipman and sorry soul the dr lipman a clinical psychologist who's been involved in the spectrum of attentional disorders for over twenty five years series sold him psycho therapist who has worked with individuals couples and groups of a.d.h. d. for over. twenty five years let's get back to it first of all. you were talking

about used a phrase during the break that i had heard you know one time actually. i've ever heard. it was exciting because i came out this summer in detroit where i'm from and five miles from where i grew up in downtown detroit happened to be the same week as the trayvon martin verdict and so i was came full circle because that was my original study of. minority mental health and i realize that so many of my clients are painted with such a broad brush on the surface disorganization and that really see what's underneath them and same thing obviously with any kind of profiling bigotry but as a therapist what i'm interested in is what happens as a result whether it's women or men with differences what i see happening is. a minority we have learned from the culture and. values people who are other

minorities that's not me and so idealize those things they internalize those things they compare themselves to because i needed to account for the terrible oppression that i see in my clients even if their families weren't telling them they were bad somewhere along the way the culture is telling them what is good and what is valuable and that's not just like you know you see documentaries about little you know african-american girls who are picking out. being good and that's what i see that. women are a logical. cultural diversity gender sexual preferences i see diversity is the next big fight for acceptance of differences. you know there's a big movement. in there and he wrote this book called diagnosing jefferson it's amazing because he goes through. jefferson biography i read that book and i could. inst jefferson was

a speaker which is old ever doubt your faith. but neurodiversity started in that in the artistic community and now that armstrong wrote about neuro diversity which talks about you know bracing our differences even though we still help people who are suffering we still help out better but to not bathala gys or demonize well it's arguably it's this it's kind of a variation. to say it's a variation on affirmative action is that right you know like yeah it's like saying you know ok you've been dissed long enough you know. we're going to acknowledge your own pride right ok that's good stuff now ellen you work with high i.q. kids i was my life was saved by spock i was six or seven years old when sputnik one and we all had this satellite going over our heads going to be an eisenhower went nuts and said ok we're going to fund programs for gifted kids and i got pulled out of the public school actually in the school pulled out of my classroom along with

another friend of mine and a couple of other kids and put in this fast track for grades two three four five and six and by the time i was done with sixth grade i was you know had two languages i was doing math the calculus i was reading that bloody i don't want so i can break it. down the vietnam war started and all the funding for that one away and the time i was in junior high school i was going down in flames and my brothers were hit in school who were just as smart as i was and were being given i mean you know it seems like there was a time in this country when we actually funded special education for gifted kids that pretty much doesn't happen anymore and and it seems to me that there might even be an element of a lot of kids who are being diagnosed as a.d.h. do you want to share are just bore i mean. i just i just threw a whole bunch of stuff at you want to. ok so.

there's so much overlap between and giftedness this so many of the behaviors are very similar so you know what the difference is is how annoying do your parents or the teachers find you i mean it's essential the difference in terms of who gets. well and whether it's pathology as to whether it's celebrated. so the point is that . there's a developmental delay in. some behaviors that are required for more linear thinking and for doing schoolwork are acquired later so a really gifted kid with a.d.d. is intellectually maybe three years beyond their peers and socially and emotionally about three years behind their peers so that's a huge discrepancy that really no one can make sense of the child can't make sense of it that stressful for them they don't fit in anywhere they like to talk to

adults they play with younger kids. you know teachers don't understand if you're so smart why did you leave your backpack in the middle of the room. and it's a great for station to everybody they think that if people are gifted they're like oh good smart we don't have to deal with that but that needs addressing just this much as you know and the other kinds of symptoms that they need to be stimulated and so a lot of what you're seeing i agree with you totally is a mind that has not been. roused intellectually and when it is they can focus as well as the next person. so it's really i mean i think to me that is something that we're really we're probably you know there were over diagnosing and you know in some cases probably under diagnosing but. that is really the group that won't ask for help won't be identified. because

they're not necessarily disruptive but they're bored and they are frustrated and they withdraw. or you know they get in trouble just because they're bored story of my child. yeah and you know and i see a lot of this in adults i work in a university town so i have a lot of really really smart talented i don't get talented people who are very creative people who could do great things but also know have this huge split like they have all these talents but they have either a learning disability or they have problems the tension and the terrible demoralization and frustration of not being able to manifest and not be able to describe tell people all the great thoughts you have it's a really huge split and that is a different condition than just having one or the other having both of those is something you can't even find a peer group you hide your gifts when you're with people who have the same challenges and when you're with people who have strengths you know they don't understand why you have these challenges are you really caught in a narrow box so let's talk about the ecology for

a minute. if you were to. use business as a. i mean nobody in their right mind would suggest as the new c.e.o. of pepsi cola for example i'm going to take the most promising division of my company number to fund it one person and i'm going to take the least promising division of my company and throw eighty percent of our resources and it seems like that's what we're doing with education and that's not to say that you know kids who are struggling are the least potentially productive many of them with most of them have a tremendous potential that needs to be brought out but that that those it seems to me like in america we're leaving an enormous amount of potential on the floor and they don't do that and they don't do that and. what are what are we missing how do we fix this at the educational level how do we fix this workplace how do we fix this relationship so we fix this therapy mess. well we got six minutes of. your

time. but it's it's to me and for conformity which is so unfortunate because that takes all the outliers all the kids that are not directly under the bell curve and saying you're different but in a bad way and you know there's been just a move towards greater and greater demands for conformity and girls and women are i think even more sensitive to that then males so there's a lot of shame and withdrawal i'm different and i shouldn't be involved but when they get to men especially when they get to the point of being out in the world if they survive school in some way they then they're they can be the risk takers they're you know and they can come up with ideas that are outside of the box and they're not afraid so there's some really great options for moving ahead with life if you get through the narrow constraints of our educational system started or.

there are some i mean you're writing across afghanistan on a camel. yes i was. you know there are some women who. societies tells women don't do that you know. whether you know you i mean you are an amazing role model if we can talk about you personally you know you just said ok that was that is he having people that you can identify with who are not just those normal kind of role models leaves a lot of us out so having you know models like what happened to you finding a good fit you were already successful in what you were doing but you were not valued as much as you needed to be and as you had had not been able to express all that you have inside of you and brilliancy you have and you found an amazing venue for yourself so you are a wonderful role model for people with these kind of. francis is right you've

gotten support to be able to do that. and actually i would say if i had married. that's when that's what it was the women we don't have wives and we feel we need women don't have as much support so that we can just start you know and let our gifts out but you know so. so you want to so should somebody i mean by experience as somebody who would self identify and self diagnosis. and i have since i've known about it. is that by marrying somebody who is very solid and stable and that pays attention to details it has kept me anchored to the world one balloon starts fly out or how does a woman do that particularly when a lot of women never even let anybody know that there are. we have just one thought well the idea is that women unfortunately have to do the job of organizing themselves and everyone else i do suggest to all of them that they find a wife themselves because you don't have to be good at everything but women feel

like they have to be that wife yes absolutely high reason why you have to be good at everything i mean so you know. organized and ten think in a more linear way so i mean that isn't a deficit you think in a different way and the complimentary nature of the relationship is fabulous so i think that it's just finding someone who can you know keep you tethered and then the other person can feel free to use their gifts in a different direction even through the stuff like the book keeping them honest keeping all right every somebody who respects you to not have a polarizing or someone as a parent. thank you so much is now it's great. to see this and other conversations of great minds go to our website conversations and great lines dot com.

it was terrible they weren't very hard to make up. once again on here a plant life has never had sex with her make their lives let's. just say. listen listen listen listen listen listen. listen listen listen listen listen. players. play. live.

i know c.n.n. the most obviously news lately but it's their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be. that was funny but it's closer to the truth from the right thing. goods because one full attention in the mainstream media works side by side the joke is actually on we're going to look. at our teenagers we have a different approach. because the news of the world just is not this funny i'm not like sitting there but i'm not going.

to go to the jokes i will hand over the stuff that i've got. coming up on our t.v. ever growing n.s.a. spying scandal takes another twist it appears that secret data collection started twenty years before september eleventh during the presidency of ronald reagan more on the new revelations ahead and have you checked the calendar lately while it's only twenty thirteen many in the mainstream media are already talking about the twenty sixteen presidential race we'll take a look at why some are obsessed with the race that's still years away and fifty years ago today the nation and the world was stunned by the assassination of president kennedy but a majority of americans think there's more to the story we'll take a look at some of those theories later in the show.