killing. in a record setting trip by land air sea and others made. a living torch relay. on mars. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle time magazine's person of the year francis the catholic pontiff according to the managing editor the pope change the tone and perceptions of the roman catholic church this may be so but francis also be showing himself to be critical of the global economic order and capitalism is there hope for the church or is francis merely a p.r. product. to

cross out pope francis i'm joined by my guest jamila bey in washington she's a journalist and public speaker also in washington we have a one hundred chef when he is the president of the at was economic research foundation and in madison we cross to scott rickard he is an expert on catholicism as well as the executive editor of chronicles a magazine of american culture all right crosstalk rules and in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage encourage it one hundred in washington per person of the year well deserved yes for sure few people have such respect as the pope. the catholic church still has so much kristie just so much influence around and around the globe so i'm a middle aged ok jamil are you elated that pope francis is time magazine's person of the year. it is despairing despairing to

me that i've got to support miley cyrus pope francis is a choice for person of the year was absolutely wrong in every measure from time magazine this pope as you put it in your intro so aptly earlier is a product of p.r. he's not this major reformer who's coming in making sweeping changes to benefit the lives of the faithful he has more of the same and unfortunately that's a problem he should not have been picked ok in scotland would you differentiate the two because it's very interesting what we've heard already in this program is that i mean it may be very possible that francis is a p.r. product and you know he's very appealing to a lot of people i mean even i look at the pictures of him embracing a man with severe disfigurement i mean any person who has compassion can say that's a good person doing that as opposed to kind of where is the catholic church because it looks like you can easily separate the two go ahead scott. right it's certainly

he certainly is appealing the the the idea though that that he was ever going to come in and change the catholic church in the way that that i think. or some of the editors of time might want. was was wrong from the from the beginning what what he has brought to the catholic church is a change in tone a change in emphasis the time article does pick up on that but it also expresses a sort of hope an expectation that there is going to be some sort of more fundamental change doctrinal changes moral changes these aren't going to come about the catholic church. is a two thousand year old institution that that understands. what the what it is supposed to be teaching and and the pope would not have been elected if

if he were going to teach something other than than what he should be teaching one hundred that's very interesting point because you can have a new pope but you still have the old church. yes among the catholics in the united states at least in the poll that was released yesterday it is the conservative catholics that have more doubts because they fear that there might be coming to change the fundamental truth and doctrines of the church but i agree with scott that that will not happen you know this pope is very well trained is not a product of. said he didn't live through the horrors of soviet communism. and john paul the second did he did not live through the madness of hitler benedict ratzinger in hue cus but he lived through a very conflicted period in argentina the killings of the seventy both by the left and from the right he's only capitalism firsthand he remained in that culture of

full of corruption completely clean and impeccable learning to live to listen to many difference it's this i don't like you know i'm very a great fan an advocate of the importance of free enterprise and the free year karna me but there are many other important point part of for the pope is spiritual freedom and i think here his tone a way that he's reaching out you know it's a first step in his role as a pontiff michael navarre perhaps a representative of what you would call a conservative capitalism he has to say that what a pity that we have such stupendous pope john paul the second and pope benedict people will think that the church is made by men. as roman catholics we have to trust the holy spirit and i'm confident you know the holy spirit will guide the church. let's talk about the holy spirit here because it's people don't have a problem with the holy spirit they have a lot of problems with the catholic church doctrine that they have

a problem with well you know here's the thing when you bring in a new head of the organization you do so to address the. fundamental issues that are that are a cancer in the organization and let's be very clear about this why while this pope pope francis has spoken out against. capitalism you know negative capitalism making money as a god and i am i am heavily paraphrasing there. let's be real jesus in the temple turned over the money changers tables that's doctrine that all christians can agree on that's nothing new and radical this pope has yet to address the major issues that are plaguing catholicism right now he has he has appointed a commission to look into the abuse of children but keep in mind this is a pope who a few years ago said that homosexuals adopting children is

a form of child abuse i think this is a pope who absolutely would understand what is child abuse when you look at the scandals of child rape and child abuse in latin america and argentina and you know that this is a pope who before he was a pope was privy to that knowledge when you look at the fact that this pope chose to dismiss a few of his cardinals and whatnot but he left in place someone from germany who in two thousand and four moved a known pedophile priest and said well you know our therapist said that he is not going to re-offend this is the type of thing that is driving the faithful away this is the type of thing that is making it impossible for people who love and care for children to support this institution and yes it's wonderful that he's appointed a commission but why do you need to study that child rape is wrong ok scott if i can go back to you and madison i mean you know what we just heard is you know the

problems within the church it looks like francis has are to approach here he's trying to appeal to catholics that have been. discouraged by the scandals that we've had for like almost twenty years now and he's also trying to reach out to be other religions here i mean washing the feet of a muslim girl which you know in this day and age that's kind of an important visual that you can have here i mean it can he say something new can he do something new considering he has different constituencies as head of the church to address well he can say things in a in a new way or he can renew our understanding of the central message of the of the gospel and that's the that's the important point if we look at john paul the second we could say that john paul the second was a philosopher pope he was he was heavily influenced by men who sort of. benedict the sixteenth was a theologian pope. francis is very much

a pastor pope in the mold of john the twenty third or even pius the tenth two very different man but men who who were very concerned with a past durrell approach to the to the papacy and and francis i think for that reason he is exactly the right man at exactly the right time well scott let me just say this idea that if you are being driven where it's a good question it was i think that's a very good point and that he strikes me as being the same way a pastor pope but you know it the corruption in the catholic church is her riffing i lived in poland in the one nine hundred eighty s. it was in communist poland it was catholic poland and it if you live there that could turn you instantly off from catholicism because of corruption. well. there are there are problems with corruption in any institution the question is how

are these how are these things addressed for instance the claims that the that the catholic church has not addressed the issue of child sexual abuse is just ludicrous for anybody who's actually studied this i've been writing about about this issue for fifteen years now in various publications i know this material inside and out the fact is that that the instances of child sexual abuse currently occurring in the catholic church today are almost nonexistent the cases that have made the news the cases that are that were uncovered and that were talked about. for years now are cases that go back twenty thirty forty fifty sixty years the worst cases in fact. are forty to fifty years old the problem has been addressed

and the clean up was done primarily by pope benedict the sixteenth when he was when he was head of the congregation for the for the doctrine of the faith when he asked pope john paul the second to put the authority to clean this mess up under his his command and a and he continued it during during the time that he will get to go to a short period just will be life is really largely been you look at stream leon happy or ok i give you twenty seconds before we go to the break go ahead. german german prefect care hard ludwig mueller in two thousand knew that priest paul kramer had molested children in two thousand and four movie. that same priest to a different parish did not disclose that ten years ago and this is someone who this

current pope has allowed to continue and has and has post that's a problem ok off the only right we're going to win short break we're going to win short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on pope francis' state with or to. leave. going to be always one of the people that want to go into place where the rules haven't been written yet an open frontier a place not a place where they have a chance to make their own world instead of just living in one that has already

been made for them and that's a fundamental kind of freedom and that's what having an open frontier means. so you know if you're confident that the irish people won't be asked again to stab in the day why do you wear the private banks of the end of any costs and start after hopkins wasn't it be funny not economically what always happens and regulates once central bankers politicians they say this will never ever happen again and it keeps on company but we have to ensure is that if this does company again it doesn't cause such a consequence make an awful cost for tots. look . right down the street. first street leaders and

i think picture. on a reporter's twitter. and instagram. to be in the little. league baseball. is a. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing time magazine's person of the year pope francis. ok one hundred like to go back to you in washington pope francis ruffled

a lot of feathers with one of his first writings and it was very critical of global capitalism and finance and it when i read it i read it very carefully because i think it's very interesting and it's very much an echo of the live liberation theology that we had in the one nine hundred seventy s. in the western hemisphere and he got a lot of negative press for that in the media over the last few weeks for writing that. is being a pastoral pope as we've heard earlier in this program do you think that this is he's going to be a pope of the poor because capitalism or however you want to describe it makes a small number of people rich and a lot of people poor least in two thousand and thirteen that's the case. well now he in this document he said you know he is a pastor for the rich. and for the poor before i answer in detail you know i think i sympathize with it is such a scandal because people in modeler thought it would be use of their power and especially with young boys or or young girls and betraying the trust you know that

the community has on them we have seen also other sinful priests you know in a hierarchy dealing in monetary issues sin will always exist will always be with us you know and but again when you look at all the citrus around the world i think if you institution has stood you know the test of time as the catholic church confidence you know this is a good choice even for cleaning up the church and pope francis even decided to live outside the bureaucratic headquarters and went to live to damo son to america this about nice building next to st peter. going back to what you said the problem never you should the work capitalism in this document not a single time he said on serious matters you have to go to the compendium of social docking of the church where the point forty two are sent to. a figure clearly capitalism with rule of law based on the dignity of the human person is totally

consistent with the doctrine of the catholic church now a capitalism as we have today who has crony capitalism where those who are close to the government receive all the privileges of capitalism which bounty doesn't reach all the poor capitalism with corruption corruption this affects disproportionately the poor so we see an inequality that is for what i say it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom only those close to power feel that they have freedom the other people feel disadvantage and i think the pope with his experience in argentina where he sees the division of well division of culture political divisions will relate well to three quarters of the world that doesn't have a look at florida you know and say ok see if i go it's going to i mean reading what he wrote and it was about capitalism even if the word wasn't mentioned it was very clear it was about capitalism scullery it again being this pastoral pope i mean he's going to be the champion of the poor it least on t.v.

in. pictures with great great leaders and what not i mean he can be that pro-trade is that but can he actually do it is another question right here because the catholic church has had this opportunity for a hundred two thousand years now and it still really hasn't pulled through for the people. oh. peter i can't believe you just said that i mean when you when you look at the history of the catholic church and you look at the history of the treatment of the poor over the past two thousand years what institution has done more for the poor than the then the catholic church where did hospitals develop hospitals were developed by the catholic church by catholic monastic orders where did schools develop again universities this is all. going to. have always been on the right side to the right side of power always with

power and if you have such a large church and you have such a figurehead of the it's about time they have the power and they have the message it just seems that they're very much in power in bed with power all of the time this is why a lot of right wing pundits in the united states. called the marxist called him a marxist this is a misunderstanding about it i decided not to write about tragedy or you know so i go over this and our journey will go ahead in washington go ahead. here's the thing here's a very easy fix render unto caesar if there was a time in this country i am a product of catholic education make no bones about it the travel i have done around the world the career i have now is because of my catholic education and i am deeply thankful for that i even went through five years of catholic university i

know my doctrine well however let's talk about hospitals for just a moment the a.c.l.u. is selling the catholic hospitals for not providing the standard of care for women's reproductive health that's a problem when the doctrine of the church says well we will put our faith tradition above the summit of our medical knowledge the summit of our biology our biological knowledge that's a problem particularly here in the u.s. now the. only even bigger. if. you want to reply to that real quick go ahead scott there is no there there will be an even bigger problem if if catholic hospitals in the united states start shutting down because the government is forcing catholic doctors catholic nurses those who support catholic hospitals to act against the teachings of their faith then you'll see. has

done the health care field. ok you would not abide by a jehovah's witness doctor saying scott i'm not going to save your baby he's going to bleed out because i will not transfuse him with blood you want to abide by it and no one else would but because it's only women who are told well let her die there's a heartbeat in that fetus and she's and she's going at it because it's only women by the way are you know jimmy. and mary wrote and i really don't understand and and i do know a little bit about women and children and the care that they should and very well received at catholic hospitals do deserve absolutely now here's the thing give the standard of care it's that simple catholic hospitals must give the standard of care the world looked at ireland and said how dare you let that that doctor die that's

that's unconscionable but here in arizona we saw where a catholic hospital nurse decided it is better to abort a pregnancy that cannot continue that will kill this woman and leave her children mother less that nun who was also a nurse who acted in accordance with the best of our medical knowledge was excommunicated there hasn't been a pedophile priest excommunicated but a nurse saying i will save the life of this patient i will save the patient ok i know that it's completely contrary ok ok ok i'll hunger we move on the right way there's a very good very good debate between you two hundred i want to pull you back in here. we have a pope with a nice smile and a crew is magic a presence here but what about doctrine is he going to do because there are millions and millions of conflicts in the world still very disaffected by some of the church's stance on birth control abortion gay rights and we've heard some nice

things coming from the pope but again i'm sorry i'm a bit i'm very skeptical it seems like a very good p.r. job to me. well i don't think it's going to change the drug scene about the life of the babies in worms you know sexually he will cut that we have to love the sexual scene about we don't have to redefine words or redefine marriage to express express that love so i don't expect any change about that you spoke before you know here in the united states many conservative anchors are calling the pope marxist here dear to part of liberation theology about the one that is listening to the people how it flows from the people and paying attention to a more democratic way of discussing topics in the catholic church but he was accused by the marxists and he never signed the documents idea into a marxist interpretation of history and part of the confusion comes from that i was taught that i mean i was going to go saying let the great profession of the great

economist lake the great medical doctors practice their profession practice discipline with total freedom following their religion they believe you know that our country united states has been blessed by religious liberty and i think that now by having even groups like the a.c.l.u. suing obliging us. who are roman catholic to behave in certain fashion and give certain type of counseling to people is very dangerous and i think in economics i think what will happen is that their debate will revert to us the lay expert the pontifical council not only has gary becker who is the free market champion from the university of chicago here they have people like george stiglitz who is the defender of the third way in the pontifical council of social science but the debate on this issue is i think corresponds to the best scientists said but i don't

like the the government imposing their views down the throat of the catholic religion the jewish tradition or any other religion that respects human dignity ok scott what do you want to see from this pontificate ok he's off to a good start i think everyone would agree at least from what from again a p.r. perspective. well one thing i'd like to see in this follows up on what. do you know there's not going to be a change in in moral doctrine but what we need to do is to explain better to the world why those moral doctrines exist why these moral teachings of the catholic church exists and this is exactly what what francis i think has been doing and is pole posed well to do that that he is helping us to understand that the moral teachings of the catholic church flow from the gospel message they flow from the central relationship of each person

with jesus christ and that once you have that relationship once you have that proper relationship you understand why the church teaches what it does about the dignity of every human being from going to set up shedding on a very very good point here we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in washington and in madison and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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