but done for the state of the rule of law in russia i'm afraid it doesn't mean much well you just mentioned several of their high profile cases that were part of the amnesty and again as i mentioned holocaust case is a bit different because it was totally up to put in the whether to release him or not it was his as president he could have chosen not to exercise it so if amnesty was going on anyway if twenty thousand people were going to be released including some of those very famous prisoners that if you just mention that's what have created these public splash anyway in the political goal that you're alluding to would have been achieved anyway so why what of koskie well first of all most political who might be kidding because if you look into the amnesty it seems to be the call soviets toil traditional kind of an amnesty touching up on the vulnerable groups of prison news pregnant women elderly people minors women with small children and so on and so forth and none of the last moment there is

a month on to include into the amnesty specifically as such crimes as hooliganism and mass and i would like to stay on for just one more question his imprisonment imprisonment had a symbolic value it was always presented as sort of reflection of how bad the human rights to shine in russia supposedly was i wonder if you attach the same symbolism to his release doesn't mean. let's say political climate in the country may be changing simply because he is being set free while human rights watch is an organization never said the case of course symbolizes everything that's wrong with human rights in russia in the uk quite to the office it. it's a very last rites of case and there are many other cases that the documented solar league. and that clearly demonstrate their own grave human rights abuses including

political money pollution of justice that are happening in the russian federation well given that so many private profile people who have been involved in political activity have been released early do you think that signifies any change in the way the kremlin operates or indeed the political climate in the country while it slug the removing war or russian political just is already the war of trumped up charges where you have some high profile political prisoners being released in one single week just before christmas just before the holiday he says developed should be ready to celebrate but done at the same time although people still remain in jail on three charges if we could stay on the subject of what our cost in sochi olympic because you you mentioned that you believe that this was

part of the political campaign and manipulation and it's interesting how the self was asked about it during the press conference and i want to play this question by b.b.c. for you are you encouraging people. really fix it to stay away so essentially the holocaust a man who was released from prison thirty six hours ago after spending their year as the first one of the first questions he is being asked is whether sochi olympics should be boycotted or not and i think that's in itself a rather peculiar question but my question to you is whether you think that's what human rights campaign in russia has come to that it's not about human rights it is now about taking a stab at the government or better or putting personally well misspoke or first and foremost you ever actually the one who's such a political manipulation project i didn't the public really. project and i know i'm

. very close on the latest thing approach but in the i'm not sure whether you know about it but it's a policy matar for human rights watch not far to call for a boy quote of sports or cultural events so all the musician god forbid another called for a boycott of the store chair let me have your be musician is very. after if in the using the image of sochi olympics and i want to quote you something that your colleagues said rachel done for the deputy director for europe and central asia. an opinion piece on your website calling on readers to quote brace yourself for what could come after international spotlight leave sochi and i wonder what are you bracing yourself for d.c. in. members will be rounded up again people will be able lynched on the streets mall how their close circle law says that he is not going to go back to russia

because he does nor knew what a hue would really mean a dream own if he's on russian soil and i was it. does he will have to live up to russia and unless he gets very small that security. this is not what he said he said that as of now he doesn't have guarantees of him being able to leave russia for our foreign countries for example for germany he needs to visit that country for example because of his mother's. rage of traveling to russia because he's afraid that does anyone actually if you are listening you know you are speaking for him that he never said that he said that indeed there are some legal issues with his case that have not been subtlety at birth he has never heard of this but i'm going to share that while holder of course he is in germany aware of his not going to go to jail now goes without saying i'm also not a free for the two women from the pool suicide bomb i don't think that they're going to be sent back to jail as soon as the olympics so what i what i see all of

the raid of is that it. looks in the other direction from russia if the spoke law is no longer on russia then the unprecedented crowd of civil society has been witnessing easy going to intensify that's exactly what the afraid of because nobody can actually see even more specific though what exactly do you mean i assume you mean the law that came into force about them well you know if i go i can not only that but i would agree that the law is indeed in the war of the crowd. down to this piece of legislation which is void of weight quandary to russia's international obligations of freedom of association this non-governmental organizations get warning funding advocacy to register poor in asia such legislation exists in many other countries such as for example the united states and britain there is

a similar law as well tomorrow night of you rudd actually did i actually did and organizations that do receive foreign funded they have to register with the state there when we receive calling and act on behalf of one oranges over four in principle and that's a very different story here in russia if an advocacy group receives even a penny kopek of foreign funding even though it's completely independent from which dog you trust to register ungenial it's also one of. the barriers of all as i'm going to be in a native speaker of russian in a resident of that in this language in this cultural context agent means for inspiring to live here i think the connotations are the same as in english for an age in english doesn't sound pretty as well but people use these terms quite often

is russians have them vaguely in russian it means poetry lawyers months the civically to demonize independent that to this what i would like to ask you something different. this year justice ministry has decided to look how do you as a complying with this law and they initiate it if i'm not mistaken i think around fourteen cases of legal proceedings against various angelos and in nine out of fourteen cases those laws actually one legal proceedings in court against the state and this is in a country that according to human rights watch has no independent judiciary where this state. prosecutes to see you just sat and yours how would that be possible well i want to want to ruin you have some dope of a problem as the first to wall the prosecutor's office actually launched this massive campaign of buna tive aggressive inspections and all one thousand organisations which out across the country and in some cases those inspections were

just completely over the top where activists were all asked for their correspondence one of the prosecutors wanted access to their computers and so on and so forth but then dozens of groups received warnings i direct orders to rich is not i want a course and one depressed sittings for it in a sense that's one of the things that sort of makes me wary because they waited for the foreign agents lawyers that the law was adopted and then the minister of justice himself so he was unhappy with the law he did not know how the minister would find it possible to implement it because there were almost all of it and for several months nothing was happening then in two thousand thirteen in february president putin doesn't meeting with the federal security service and doesn't meet suddenly says i'm bodily you know this law non-governmental organizations how come i'm not seen any implementation and as soon as he says that. the inspection

competing is being launched an older lady who from my direct question you show the court proceeding a listen to this so this is happening and organisations are taken to court and they start losing their cases and the picture is really very grim and then in mid july president putin says in the face of very strong international criticism. they are going to reconsider will possibly among the law and once he sells them out some organisations actually started winning the i.p.l. is and that's what you are referring to you see the shadow. mr putin in any single case in russia but this notion that we have to take a very short break now one day come back their russian government is often accused if using the law selectively against its critics but why did they break the law so easily that's coming up in a few moments on worlds apart. thanks

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reasons but there's already been plenty to celebrate this december this month shows how the future then still a section still a call to make me these with an instant messenger and there's been so still to make slightly. welcome back to worlds apart where discussing the state a few months writes in russia with time election not russia program director at human rights watch. just before the break we were talking about putting being implicated in pretty much everything in russia and that not everything has the high profile cases and told that smith. well i think if you if you look around the the level of paternalism is very high in this country and it seems that whether he

likes it or not he is getting dragged on into. each and every case and i wonder whether it is sometimes the human rights campaigners that contribute to these very trying because when we have. controversy with greenpeace protesters they had of greenpeace international was calling on putin to intervene now or we are discussing the horror costy case and your again pinning that on to putin and his personal and visions the coosa riot all the questions about you know whether those goals should be behind bars were again addressed to put in aren't you people like you or at least putting putin sort of for these players for us all to pad his style he's just the president wired to treat him as these super being well that's a very unfortunate situation this boy called with a problem at. and the only we can resolve

a problem is to address putin and see what actually happens because the judicial system does not blame our here for on trial even though this is the system that mr putin after the knew what he looked laws this past would amidst all the rejoicing about the release of political prisoners humor looked like a santa clause sitting under the j. gansett mom owns christmas tree in the kremlin handing out gifts of mercy of others cos. he also. told us exactly how it looked like and she knew one thing that i actually wanted to raise talking about political trust has just several issues to hold of course finally became a free man and after this in the top of the russian thousand and two upset by the name of guinea the call was sentenced to three years of a president in a clearly political case so it is the reward when the world russian justice harder

. if it comes then in graviton drago well that's an interesting point that you raise because of his news conference in berlin. he was asked whether he feels any bitterness about spending saw watched time behind bars and. i would like to play what what he said. but sure when i was running a large business. i was fully aware. that i was a player in a very tough game commute from. and i can you should know before she knew once the game you turned against me to reach became even tougher now i think he's being a bit vague here you can interpret that in many different ways but what i think he's saying is that he believes that selective justice was applied to him but he

also recognizes that he did break the law and i think that applies to many of the people that you call political prisoners. activists of greenpeace activists some of the defendants in the case and i wonder if you believe that the political nature of their actions justifies them breaking the law well they're talking about the left of prosecution and disproportionate prosecution and that's the nearest important thing here in the case of mr hodder well yes he says i've been playing rugby games but then at the same time we all knew that everyone who became rich as a result of russia's privatisation was breaking certain rules because the rules were very sort of lose and fast virtually nonexistent. so if harder call to get was sent to. the island i guess everyone else to be in the same jail with them in the very to say that russian justice is not selective you mention that especially

back in two thousand and three rules of the game were not very clearly defined and what what our cost was locked out for you know was probably being done by many are there all the guards but now the state made it absolutely clear that it's not going to tolerate breaking the law neither in respect of greenpeace activists nor in with regards to protesters attacking the police so do you think that people who defend human rights in russia protesters activists do they have to change their actions now to make sure that they simply protect themselves legally from the prosecution by the people on the one nationally have to abide by it. war on the other hand the laws themselves should be actually in line with relevant international standards the first thing that poor did when he returned to the kremlin was to run through the palm and a raft of laws which really detrimental to russian settles and i'm talking in

particular about being new restrictions on demonstrations the new restrictions on freedom of information including specifically freedom of information online and the restriction. rigid and it's very difficult for civil society to operate i wonder if you're really following the social trends that we had our scene in russia because for many years the number of volunteers in russia has been on the increase and in fact the charity's eight foundation just reported that last year russia made it to the global top ten by the number of people volunteering twenty five thousand people volunteering their time for the olympics what is that if not the sign of a strengthening civil society because in a country like russia where the sort of the fatigue of any collective action is very strong after communism years you know about when people are actually taking charge of their life when they're participating in gauging in a civil society is it just sounded volunteer movement is great and i just wonderful

to see lou level initiatives flowing in the saudis actually. to see what's wrong problematic here is that the government is basically trying to split the civil society into the good civil society the bard civil society and the good one is the one which is doing things possibly helping people without criticizing the government the bollard one is the one who is trying to bring about policy changes and actually ramey the this problem. actually trying to break the law and i think we can see here a transition to the case of two men. of that band were just released on on the amnesty and dancing in the altar wasn't the most controversial action they were also famous for you know doing some stunts that involved nudity and even something that looked like fornication in public i wonder i would like to ask you

a personal question because you have a long record of defending human rights in russia do you think there is any limit to self-expression of political activist well rid of the expression which is not limitless it can be chilly restricted the restrictions. when you need seeing the women from pussy of the group then the right thing would be you know i see the rusted on disproportionate charges because they buy new means perpetrated after all and in is with a hate monty against russian which who talks. it just didn't know what happened it's something they did no one. really understands and you'll see awful again is moved to they did but really it was a little different so cool and want to be to it was really not fair judgment at all

and he said it time and again and even did richest draw it administered civilly and sentenced to a. human rights watch would not intervene and we're. going to scream to. the court system in russia we washed all of that but tickled it is very closely and yes it's a clear example of political manipulation of justice and the ruling was. our human rights watch operates in many countries and if you look around the world this issue of ethnic and especially of religious hatred is extremely prominent these days it's a major source of human rights violations in the middle east it's a major driver for wars now in syria in libya in afghanistan in iraq so i wonder if you believe that in this particular case the right to

a fun let's say believes sensitivities is more impart important than the right not to be found that i think i said it but i don't mind repeating it again. put. her actually trolling to disproportionately charges because they did no want perpetrate an act of called the goodness of women while he occasionally learned signed by their actions and in fact during their own pretrial hearing they actually apologized to believers if those believers feelings were a found it so if they apologize that done probably if they recognized that that actions were viewed as a phone call in russian orthodox that's not like i loved what the. signal and central mosque not at all i became tuned to the pussy riot case only one of the women were actually taken into custody prior to that one they just. there whatever you want to call it forty seconds performance which is second

political stunt as a russian orthodox i was like. it probably wasn't a good idea to do this in the church again i'm russian orthodox but they should not have gone to jail that was the only thing i'm trying to say earlier imagine some of the positive developments a rise of volunteering people being more engaged people taking to the streets i don't know if you would agree but i think that some of the political discourse in russia has become more diverse compared to let's say five or six years ago why something like that is not noticed by an international organization like yourself that is so devoted to the promotion of human rights and building the civil society but it is actually a chance to both three we're here in this room i spoke to a call of yours from russia to india knew about this situation with people with disabilities in russia. first of all one has to recognize

the very nautical progress on the past two years especially. with russia's ratifying the convention on disability and even though there is still very serious problem if progress is tough on italy in place even more so we are really excited we are elitists and sopped that russia is hosting the olympic games in addition to the olympic games in salt trade because last time russia hosted the olympics as you may remember in nineteen eighty and the soviet union refused to hose the panels and. there are new does able to people in this country so yes a lot has changed in the in saying that russia is the same as the soviets you are very. good to hear because i think some of your have alliance wouldn't suggest that because you use allusions to soviet union quite a lot but given your misgivings about the human rights situation in russia i wonder if you could have made that russia played

a positive role in the snowden affair because if it wasn't for russia he would. hooley have been lock locked out long ago and probably for a much longer duration than. well once now did the second. major statement saying. all the country that he had trusted with his requests. into his claims and me objective decisions and this is apparently what russia has done and that's newton and temporary refuge in this country as they say until i much rather peculiar while given refuge chill while near the whistleblower laws. one who is drawing to. an escape from d.s.s. or its is being a part of this soup of it russia is at the same chawed putin says much russia on its own whistleblower there is this harassment

a whistleblower is going on in the country including the whistleblower it's insulted there is a huge crush on environmentalist groups and own independent media that are trying to cover all the developments relevant to the olympics construction and they're being critical well i think what that shows is that human rights issues probe probably a major problem not just in russia but in many countries around the world and i guess that means that human rights watch has will have a lot of adopted in the future unfortunately we have to leave it here because we are out of time i appreciate your time and this spirited discussion and if you like the show please join us again same place same time here in the wilds of.

why is the price of gold so high. demand global demand do you think oldest money. know the value of the only place we have to live of the water that we need to survive it's not compared to bill i mean gold we're not going to eat gold we're not going to bait with gold. we're not going to drink up what clearly what amal is and is in a desperate economic situation absolutely right what we're running to do is say they're for any kind of economic development from the outside is going to be a benefit their only purpose is to extract as much money as possible to feed into the global financial system. with me or part of the geo political economic system that's extremely exploitive.

first of all is a question where the mining should even be carried out altogether can it be done in a way which doesn't destroy people's lives resources environment will you know those are pretty serious questions mining is not a what a moment problem it's happening in asia in africa and south america in central america in mexico and it's even happening in canada and the united states. the beginning of the unknown politics marks a new phase from my life. in sin that enough temptation. to douglas last for six months. more polar bears the people. and it was easy to hide the rifle on the scooter. because the islander so in the

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legal cases brought against russia's former oil tycoon mikhail khodorkovsky are to be reviewed the move by the country's highest court could lead to previous sentences being overturned. iran may unfreeze and accelerate its nuclear program if washington introduces new sanctions something that could undermine the historic geneva agreement seen as a keep breakthrough twenty thirteen. and hang the expounds britons are shopping like there's no tomorrow despite the country's austerity drive while studies say they'll be paying for their christmas birds well into the new year.