and so yes indeed i would actually agree with me how you how the cost to himself. it is a public relations project doesn't make of what's less well knew not told because indeed it means quite a lot for what are called skiffle his family it means quite a lot from those prisoners or if i may call them out there is protestant is in charge for most. individuals individual victims of abuses means that it means religion but done for the state of the rule of law in russia i'm afraid it doesn't mean much well you just mentioned several of their high profile cases that were part of the amnesty and again as i mentioned holocaust case is a bit different because it was totally up to put into whether to release him or not it was his prerogative as president he could have chosen not to exercise it so if amnesty was going on anyway if twenty thousand people were going to be released

including some of those very famous prisoners a few just mention that's what have created this public splash anyway in the political goal that you're alluding to would have been achieved anyway so why what of koskie well first of all most political whim of the kidding because if you look into the amnesty it seems to be the call soviet's toil traditional kind of an amnesty touching upon vulnerable groups of prison news pregnant women elderly people minors women with small children and so on and so forth and one of the last moment there is a month added on to include into the amnesty a specific list such crimes as hooliganism and mass and i would like to stay on the holocaust for just one more question his imprisonment imprisonment had a symbolic value it was always presented as sort of reflection of how bad the human rights to shine in russia supposedly was i wonder if you. attached the same

symbolism to his release doesn't mean that let's say political climate in the country may be changing simply because he is being set free while human rights watch is an organisation nullus the case of course symbolizes everything that's wrong with human rights in russia in the uk quite to the opposite. it's a very last rites of case and there are many other cases that we've documented solidly and that clearly demonstrate that there are grave human rights abuses including political manipulation of justice that are happening in the russian federation given that so many private profile people have been involved in political activity have been released early do you think that signifies any change in the way the kremlin operates or indeed the political climate in the country while it's largely the revolving door of russian political just is

all the war of trumped up charges where you have some high profile political prisoners being released in one single week just before christmas just before the holidays develop should be ready to celebrate but done at the same time are the people still remain in jail on three charges if we could stay on the subject of what our cost in sochi olympic because you you mentioned that you believe that this was part of the political campaign and when the place and it's interesting the holocaust himself was asked about it during the press conference and i want to play this question by b.b.c. for you are you encouraging people to show she's really fix or to stay away so essentially the holocaust a man who was released from prison thirty six hours ago after spending their talent . yours the first one of the first questions he is being asked is whether sochi

olympics should be boycotted or not and i think that's in itself a rather peculiar question but my question to you is whether you think that's what human rights campaign in russia has come to that it's not about human rights it is not about taking a stab at the government or better or putting personally well misspoke or first and foremost you are actually the one who is such a political manipulation project that i didn't start a public relations project and i'm relations are. very close on labor the same approach but in the i'm not sure whether you know it's a paulus matar for human rights watch not all to call for a boy quote of sports or cultural events so all the musicians go through a good novel called. your views ation is very. after if in the using the image of sochi olympics and i want to quote you something

that your colleague said rachel done for the deputy director for europe and central asia for human rights watch just published an opinion piece on your website calling on readers to quote brace yourself for what could come after international spotlight leave sochi and i wonder what are you bracing yourself or do you think. members will be rounded up again people will be able lynched on the streets mall how their close circle law says that he is not going to go back to russia because he does nor knew what a hue would really mean a dream own if he's on russian soil and i was it. doesn't unless he really has them back to russia and unless he gets very small that security. this is not what he said he said that as of now he doesn't have guarantees of him being able to leave russia for our foreign countries for example for germany he needs to visit that country. for example because of his mother that he isn't afraid of traveling to

russia because he's afraid that does any of that he is you are letting you know you are speaking for him that he never said that he said that indeed there are some legal issues with his skis that have not been subtlety have both he has never heard of this very british air that while holder of course he is in germany over over his not going to go to jail now goes without saying i'm also not free or the two women from the pool suicide bomb i don't think that they're going to be sent back to jail as soon as the olympics are so what i what i see all of the raid of is that it. looks in the other direction from russia is the spoke is no longer on russia then the unprecedented crowds on civil society had been witnessing is going to intensify that's exactly what the afraid of because nobody can actually see even more specific though what exactly do you mean i assume you mean the law

that came into force about them well you know half ago was that i'm not only that but i would agree that the law is indeed in the war of the untalented this piece of legislation which is why did we call entropy to russia's international obligations and freedom of association this non-governmental organisations get warning funding and advocacy have to register who are in such legislation exists in many other countries such as for example the united states and britain there is a similar law as well on our own have you run a fire actually did i actually did and organizations that do receive foreign funding have to register with the state very well using that receive calling and act on behalf of one all ages over forming principle and that's a very different story here in russia if an advocacy group receives even a penny. kopek of foreign funding even though it's completely independent from its

dog is just a register so also one of. the barriers of all as i did being a native speaker of russian and a resident of russia in this language in this cultural context agent means for inspiring to live here i think the connotations are the same as in english for an agent in english doesn't sound preachy as well but if people use these terms quite often russians are sometimes very good in russian i mean spawn treats lawyers months the civically to demonize independent that to this what i would like to ask you something different. this year justice ministry has decided to look how complying with this law they in the shade if i'm not mistaken i think around fourteen cases of legal proceedings against very sound in mind out of fourteen cases those laws actually won legal proceedings in court against the state and this

is in a country that according to human rights watch has no independent judiciary where the state prosecutes as you just sat and yours how would that be possible well i would who want to ruin you have some dough but the problem was the first to wall the prosecutor's office actually launched this massive campaign of the units of aggressive inspections and all in one fell the organization's rick choked across the country and in some cases those inspections were just completely over the top where activists were all asked for their correspondence when the prosecutors wanted access to their computers and so on and so forth but then dozens of groups received warnings i direct orders to refuse not one to courts and won the proceedings. in a sense that's one of the things that sort of makes me read because. they waited

for the forty nations or is that the law was adopted and the minister of justice himself so he was unhappy with the law he did not know how the ministry would find it possible to implement it because the almost rule are written and last several months nothing was happening then in two thousand thirteen in february president putin has a meeting with the federal security service and. suddenly says i'm bodily you know this law non-governmental organizations how come i'm not seen any implementation and as soon as he says that. the inspection competing is being launched and olders i do use it including you from my direct question you show the court proceeding. so this is how planning and organization are taken to court and they start losing their cases and the picture is really very grim and then in mid july president putin says in the face of very strong international criticism. we are going to reconsider we will possibly among the law and once he sells out some

organisations started winning the i.p.l. is and that's what you are referring to you see the shadow of mr putin in any single case in russia but i really have to take a very short break now one we come back the russian government is often accused of using the law selectively against its critics but why did they break the law easily that's coming up in a few moments on worlds apart. your bank account how does that look today a bit more depleted than usual could be that the masters of the universe why the n.s.a. changed your bank account balance that's what i've been up to. all those jokesters at the n.s.a. just playing around with the financial system for

a fall out and fight as a game i thought the reason they were involved in all that invasive technology stacy was to keep us safe. to see street interesting. strategic we should try. and undercover team of journalists trying to release wiki leaks documents about how the united states is trying to. be a local media more pro-american they encounter fear ignorance and pressure. country blocks the way to information freedom. media stop. the beginning of the old politics which most of the face is full life. in the in the temptation and. the dog was lost for six months.

more than people. and it was easy to hire a rifle as a scooter. because the island is so in a special there are no indigenous people but there are all those who do choose this frozen life. this is could be right about. if you are. welcome back to worlds apart where discussing the state of human rights in russia with time election not russia program director at human rights watch. just before the break we were talking about putting being implicated in pretty much everything is in russia and that not everything has the high profile cases and told that smith

. well i think if you if you look around the of the the level of paternalism is very high in this country and it seems that whether he likes it or not he is getting dragged on into. each and every case and i wonder whether it is sometimes the human rights campaigners that contribute to these very trying because when we have. controversy with greenpeace protesters they had of greenpeace international was calling on him to intervene now or we are discussing the horror cost the case and the you're again pinning that on to putin and his personal and visions the coosa riot all the questions about you know whether those goals should be behind bars where again addressed you couldn't see you people like you or at least putin putin sort of for these play of words on to pad his style he's just the president wired to treat him as these super being all of us a very unfortunate situation this boy called with the problem at

a certain poor and the only we to resolve a problem is to address putin and see what happens because the judicial system does not only blame him for i'll try to live in a list of the system that mr putin after the new which clause this past week amidst all the need joisting of odorless of political prisoners human looked like a santa clause sitting under the j. gansett mom owns christmas. in the kremlin handing out gifts of mercy of others course. he also. told us exactly how it looked like and she knew one thing that i actually wanted to raise talking about political trust is just several years after all that of course finally became a free man and after the in the top of the russian thousand and two upset by the name of guinea the cole was sentenced to three years of the president

in a clearly political case so it is the reward the world russian justice. if it comes a rabbit in rather well that's an interesting point that you raise because at his news conference in berlin. he was asked whether he feels any bitterness about spending saw watched time behind bars and. i would like to play what what he said. back sure when i was running a large business. i was fully aware. that i was a player in a very tough game commuter me. condition of abortion you once again you turned against me to reach became even tougher shoot him now i think he's being

a bit vague here you can interpret that in many different ways but what i think he's saying is that he believes that selective justice was applied to him but he also recognizes that he did break the law and i think that applies to many of the people that you call political prisoners. activists of greenpeace activists some of the defendants in the case and i wonder if you believe that the political nature of their actions justifies them breaking the law well we're talking about the left of prosecution and disproportionate prosecution another diminished important thing here in the case of mr hodder well yes he says i've been playing rugby games but then at the same time we all knew that everyone who became rich as a result of russia's privatisation was breaking certain rules because the rules were very sort of lose and fast virtually nonexistent. so if harder call to get

was sent to jail then i guess everyone else to be in the same jail with him in the virtue say that russian justice is not selective you mention that especially back in two thousand and three rules of the game were not very clearly defined and what what our cost was locked up for you know was probably being done by many are there all the guards but now the state made it absolutely clear that it's not going to tolerate breaking the law neither in respect of greenpeace activists nor in with regards to protesters attacking the police so do you think that people who defend human rights in russia protesters activists do they have to change their actions now to make sure that they simply protect themselves legally from the prosecution by the speedball on the one nationally have to abide by it. war on the other the laws themselves should be actually in line with relevant international standards the first thing that poor did when he returned to the kremlin was to run through

the call him and a raft of laws which really detrimental to russian several and i'm talking in particular about the new restrictions on demonstrations the new restrictions on freedom of information including specifically freedom of information online and the restriction. rigid and it's very difficult for civil society to operate i wonder if you're really following the social trends that we had our scene in russia because for many years the number of volunteers in russia has been on the increase and in fact the charities aid foundation just reported that last year russia made it to the global top ten by the number of people volunteering twenty five thousand people volunteering their time for the olympics what is that if not the sign of a strengthening civil society because in a country like russia where the sort of the fatigue of any collective action is very strong after communism years you know that when people are actually taking

charge of their life when they are participating in gauging in civil societies or just sunday while the interior movement is great and i just wonderful to see lou level for lunch initiatives flowing in the saudis actually. if you see what's wrong problematic here is that the government is basically trying to split the civil society into the good civil society the barred civil society and the good one is the one which is doing things possibly helping people without criticizing the government the bad one is the one who's trying to bring about policy changes and actually ran the d. this problem. actually trying to break the law and i think we can hear a transition to the case of. as of that band were just released on on the amnesty and dancing in the altar wasn't the most controversial action there were also

famous for doing some stunts that involved nudity and even something that looked like fornication in public i wonder i would like to ask you a personal question because you have a long record of defending human rights in russia do you think there is any limit to self-expression of political activist well rid of the expression which is not limitless it can be actually restricted. i need mean saying the women from pussy of the group they had the right thing would realize seeing is that the rusted on disproportionate charges because they buy a new means perpetrated after all in there is with a hate monty against russian which had talks with. it just didn't know what happened it's something they did no one. really understands and we'll

see of hooliganism motivated but really it was a little red circle and wanted the to kill it was really not a fair judgement at all and he said it time and again and even did richest draw it administered to me and sentenced to a. human rights watch would not intervene and we're. going to screen. the court system in russia and we washed all of that particular kids very closely and yes it's a clear example of political manipulation of justice and the ruling was unfair. our human rights watch operates in many countries and if you look around the world this issue of ethnic and especially of religious hatred is extremely prominent these days it's a major source of human rights violations in the middle east it's a major driver for wars now in syria in libya in afghanistan in

iraq so i wonder if you believe that in this particular case the right to a fun let's say villages sensitivities is more impart important than the right not to be found and i think i said it but i don't mind repeating it again. put. her actually trolling to disproportionately charges because they did not want perpetrate an act of color when the women wanted nation only learn to sign it by their actions and in fact during their own pretrial hearing they actually apologized to believe or as if those believers feelings were a found it so if they apologize that done probably they recognise that their actions were viewed as the final on russian orthodox so that's not like i loved what the federal and central mosque not at all. i became too much to the pussy riot case only one of those women were actually taken into custody rather

choose out one they just have their whatever you want to call it which is seconds performance which is second political stunt as a russian orthodox i was like. it probably wasn't a good idea to do this in the church again i'm russian orthodox but they should not have gone to jail does the only thing i'm trying to say earlier when mentioned some of the positive developments the rise of volunteering people being more engaged people taking to the streets i don't know if you would agree but i think that some of the political discourse in russia has become more diverse compared to let's say five or six years ago why something like that is not noticed by an international organization like yourself that is so devoted to the promotion of human rights and building the civil society but it is actually a chance to both three wicks of the here in this room spoke to a call of yours from russia to this situation with people with disabilities in

russia. first of all no one has to recognize the very nautical progress on the past two years especially. with russia's ratifying the convention on disability and even though there are still very serious problems and if progress is tough in italy in place even more so are really excited elitists and sopped that russia is hosting the paula lynn games in addition to the olympic games in salt shape because last time russia hosted the olympics as you may remember in nineteen eighty and the soviet union refused to host the panels. and there are new people in this country so yes a lot has changed on by an indian saying that russia is this is the so if you are very good to hear because i think some of your have alliance i wouldn't suggest

that because you use allusions to soviet union quite a lot of but given your misgivings about the human rights situation in russia i wonder if you could have made that russia played a positive role in the snow than the farah because if it wasn't for russia he would . hooley have been lock locked out long ago and probably for a much longer duration than. well once noted in the second. major statement saying. all the country that he addresses with his requests. into his clear. objective decisions and this is apparently what russia has done and that's newton and temporary refuge in this country at the same charm it's rather peculiar while given refuge chill while new whistleblower laws. one who is drawing to. an escape from the s.s. or its is being apparently sue of it russia is at the same chawed putin says much

russia on its own whistleblower there is this harassment a whistleblower is going on in the country including the whistleblower it's insulted there is a huge crush on environmentalist groups and own independent media that are trying to cover all the developments relevant to the olympics construction and they're being critical well i think what that shows is that human rights issues probe probably a major problem not just in russia but in many countries around the world and i guess that means that human rights watch has will have a lot of adopted in the future unfortunately we have to leave it here because we are out of time i appreciate your time and this spirited discussion and if you like the show please join us again same place same time here in the wilds of.

back in two thousand and three the rules of the game were not very clearly defined and what what our cost was locked out for you know was probably being done by many are their only cards but now the state made it absolutely clear that it's not going to tolerate breaking the law and one that became rich as a result of russian pilots association was breaking certain rules because the rules were very sordo who wasn't virtually nonexistent. if condo cults give us son. down i guess everyone else should be in the same jail with a. good

lumber jury was to build the needs most sophisticated which on fortunately doesn't give a dollar amount anything to nj mission to teach music creation and why it should care about humans. this is why you should care only. why is the price of gold so high. demand global demand do you think it was money. know the value of the only place we have to live of the water that we need to survive it's not compared to i mean gold we're not going to eat gold we're not going to bait with gold. we're not going to drink oh well clearly what i'm all is and is in a desperate economic situation absolutely right what we're wrong to do is say there for any kind of economic development from the outside is going to be

a benefit their only purpose is to extract a switch. money is possible to feed into the global financial system. with part of the geo political economic system it's extremely or splintered to. first was a question whether mining should even be carried out altogether can it be done in a way which doesn't destroy people's was resources environment will you know those are pretty serious questions mining is not a what a moment from it's happening in asia in africa and south america in central america in mexico and it's even happening in canada and the united states.

and. u.s. drones and hell fire missiles on their way to iraq washington pledges lethal aid to counter attacks from al qaeda linked industry most are also gaining ground in neighboring syria. press immigration initiative in the u.k. is slammed for ethnic profiling by the un for fear it could trigger a sweeping crackdown on porkers an asylum seekers who are there illegally. iran may on freeze and accelerate its nuclear program if washington introduces new sanctions something that could undermine the historic geneva agreement seen as a key breakthrough twenty thirteen. legal cases brought against russia's former oil tycoon mikhail khodorkovsky are to be reviewed the move by the country's highest court could lead to a previous step.