at the palestine israel conflict i'm joined by my guest soraya support ehrlich in irvine she is an independent researcher and writer and in new york we cross to norman finkelstein he is a political analyst and author of crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime if you want and i very much encourage it and norman you've been a great scholar of the so-called peace process of the last twenty years coming to the studio today i noticed that the u.s. secretary of state has gone to the middle east to kick start talks well i could have read that headline almost any month of the last twenty years so norman isn't it time to start a new format because it can't go in nowhere i don't quite agree with peter we have to be careful about what's happening now because i do think it is going somewhere but not the place where justice would more to go right now secretary of state kerry president obama and various other parties to the conflict seem pretty

optimistic that they can ram down the road to the palestinians is really tied supplement of the conflict but the palestinians have never been weaker than hamas is now a no or the power of the so-called palestinians authority is totally dependent upon the united states and europe to stay alive to support it economically the palestinians are in a very difficult situation probably and so they said they have never been weaker and now the united states along with the e.u. incidentally united states and the e.u. think there is a historic opportunity to resolve the conflict. in such a way that the palestinians are left with virtually nothing ok so ryan so what kind of agreement is that how can you have an agreement like that with no justice. i honestly don't believe this top side going anywhere and i don't think they're intended to go anywhere it's just let third. this if you look at this mr obama's

speech in two thousand and eleven the word he actually mentioned the nine hundred sixty seven borders with some swaps it was intended for the palestinians not to ask for recognition at the united nations and after that mr netanyahu came to the united states and i'm sure your viewers would know that congress has far more powers or is the most powerful branch of the u.s. government he came and here dressed the united states congress in fourteen men as he got twenty nine standing ovations in which he categorically refuse to recognize those boundaries and i think it's very important to understand that as long as there is an alley it that means every jewish person from anywhere in the world can go and live in israel then israel is to continue to expand and is doing so at the expense of the palestinians with american money so no i am for the peace talks i

think norman of would certainly know the reputation of martin indyk he worked for a packet then he started the washington institute for near east policy to give a clear image to the pro israel. doctrine here in the space and he is not a person that would be suitable for negotiating peace talks if peace talks are to take place and certainly not somebody is biased in this pro israel is. ok norman you know what i saw you on democracy now with mr martin indyk he wasn't very pleased to see you i remember. could you report react to what well we did because i mean when you look at something somebody like martin indyk i have to keep being reminded is he negotiated with the americans or she negotiated for the israelis because it's hard to tell. well i think that one has to look at what the rhetorical position of people like prime minister netanyahu netanyahu is

and what their actual position is if you look at the negotiations that took place in annapolis in two thousand and eight it was quite clear what the israeli position was in a word or in a nutshell what israel wants is approximately ten percent of the west bank the area behind the wall that it's been building taking in the major settlement blocks that israel wants a nullification of the palestinian right of return basically an international solution of the refugee question which doesn't allow palestinians to return to what is now the state of israel those are israel's two key demands and the opinion of the united states and israel is and also as i have to say always be your opinion union the position now is let's resolve the conflict according to the israeli terms that is not ten yahoo will make

a grand show where he's withdrawing from ninety percent of the west bank to the ten percent behind the wall and in the exchange for this grand concession by the israelis the palestinians are going to have to give up the right of return that's basically how the theater the drama is going to play itself out and if you look at yesterday's for example reports yesterday in the israeli press the e.u. made a statement it said to israel and the palestinian authority you better get serious about negotiations now because if you don't resolve the conflict we're going to cease subsidizing the projects no bus bank so basically the e.u. is now colluding collaborating with the us. turning the screws on the problem in the ins that incidentally is the purpose behind the current murderous blockade of

gaza to break the will of the people of gaza so they repudiate hamas the palestinian authority will then claim to speak for all the palestinians than the palestinian authority will then because he really has no choice concede to the us israeli demands which the e.u. is going along with ok but so ryan it's very interesting what norman has to say going back to annapolis but i don't see mr netanyahu he's not there's not enough pressure on him to change course as a matter of fact if you look at israeli media very close closely and i know norman looks at i mean if the israelis see that they have a whole lot of cards here ok maybe netanyahu and obama don't get along very well but netanyahu does have the congress ok and you know we i don't see a lot of sticks coming out from apac i mean you know iran is one issue but you know when you look at the palestinian israel conflict congress is really very close to netanyahu is positioning and i don't see anything changing in ok the european union

will drop funding that's not going to change that the israeli position not one iota i bet you know not to let me go to iraq the early going to have been going on that go ahead. the europeans talk about this a great deal and even as for mr obama's position peter when he was running for office in two thousand and eight he promised an undivided jerusalem to israel as its capital and even president bush has not said anything so outrageous and mr obama keeps all his administration they keep increasing aid to israel it's not as if you know they're playing good cop bad cop but it depends how seriously you take obama. you know not long ago to three years ago the state department even assigned some money to middle east to memory middle east media its research institute which was founded by an israeli army the idea and it was to pinpoint

anti-semitism i mean the israeli is their positions are so backed by the united states and the e.u. is their greatest partner trading partner if things are not going to change until there is awareness amongst the people around the world in america people are simply too ignorant they have been brainwashed they have freedom of speech but they don't have freedom of thought all the information they have about what's going on in palestine and with the israelis is what the media tells them and the media is squarely in the pockets of the neo cons the think tanks run issues and even the universities there is no freedom to discuss the issue of israel and palestine but most importantly we keep thinking about seeing a part of seems that is just a muscle it's the soldier all the same tanks the the alto defamation the hudson washington is too near east policy is sop on center these are the people doubt that

actually turn out these policies. implemented and as as as you said i mean mr obama will be gone the next president. and can easily overrule what ever he implements so the important thing is to have congress deal with this situation and congress is reluctant congress takes his orders from israel it does not serve the american people and to me this is treason this is betrayal and yes they managed to get away with it chuck schumer of new york senator of new york's thousands there on the guardian of israel is sort of standing up and telling the american people that he is there to serve them he says is the shore of israel the guardian and many other such senators and congressional members ok and they tell me let me live normal and i want to. know more than you want to react to some of their. well peter i'm going to quote someone who i know you don't like so much name me namely

vladimir lenin. and one said that the sense of politics lenin once said the essence of politics is the concrete and now suits of a concrete situation ok and i think the important thing now because we're heading towards a historic turning point and we have to be very careful about what's happening we have to be concerned about what's happening we have to concrete concretely analyze this concrete situation the fact of the matter is secretary of state kerry is nobody's fool he would not invest so much time and so much energy in resolving the conflict unless he thought there was a realistic possibility that it can be resolved the last thing kerry wants now norman norman i'm going to let you continue out of norman i want to go to a short break i'll let you can genuinely return after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the palestine israel conflict state

with morning. leon. see street interesting. strategic vision. a longer covert team of journalists trying to release wiki leaks documents about how the united states is trying. more. they encounter fear ignorance and pressure. country blocks the way to information freedom. media style.

social science center just published a study suggesting that two thirds of muslims in western europe hold their religious roles and the laws of the countries that believe that if you read the bible if you get if you go into christianity you find the sun stuff you should obey god more than caesar. that means religiously more important and more convincing those of the students of the very same thing that is now referred to the muslims. oh. did you know the price is the only industry specifically mentioned in the

constitution and. that's because a free and open press is critical to our democracy albus. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and our proximity we've been hijacked by handful of transnational corporations that will profit by destroying what our founding fathers one still just my job market and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem trucks rational debate and real discussion critical issues facing up to five ready to join the movement then walk a bit. more of the country's fourteen olympics what's this place like why is this so special as the russian resort prepares to welcome the world power the games should be the

city's present and future ludlow sochi will bring you this is the moment there are reports you from a very cold and snowy windy mountain is tough beyond the olympics but come on let's say. on our team. the feeling. is a. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle true mind you were discussing the palestine israel conflict. ok norman i come back to you in new york to me i want you to react to something a lot of people tell me. that study this conflict that they say that if israel

stops its colonizing settlement agenda in the west bank and further it risks the very nature the very existence of israel because it must continue down this path because it's become its own true identity. no i don't really think or you know there's this tendency to look at countries in terms of this notion of original sin that is to say israel was born in sin and therefore have to live in sin and therefore there is no possibility of the changing any state has within the possibilities of change i lived in the united states through the civil rights era when i was growing up in the early in the one nine hundred fifty s. black people were still being lynched in the american south i lived through a transfer medicine transformation such that the president of the united states is

now african-american if you look at the first half of the twentieth century without trying to excuse any of the other great powers i think it's fair to say that the most notorious and racist powers on earth in the first half of the twentieth century were germany and japan but if you look at b.b.c. world service pows from the last twenty years when the countries around the world when the public opinion around the world is asked the question which countries in the world have the most positive the most favorable impact on international relations if you look at these b.b.c. pose believe there are no every year germany is number one and japan is number two or japan is number one and germany is number two countries can change ok that it's no mention or many of my years here in the army but if i use your logic then if i use your logic then israel must be invaded and conquered in

occupied like germany and like japan to change its behavior that's the logic. well not exactly peter because so i began with the example of the american south and you can also take the example of south africa and those two in. that required was a mass popular nonviolent movement supported by international public opinion those were the key ingredients have to be a mass popular nonviolent movement with a large amount of international support and i think the same formula that worked in the american south and worked in south africa i think that formula can also work to end the israeli occupation ok so if i go back to you to irvine a i have to i will agree with norman that countries can change their countries can change for the worse look at that i think the better ones would probably agree with that i think

you know africa africans that are all so ended up in israel somehow would probably agree that things are changing for the worse because each government gets more and more right wing and more and more racist what use can you hear on israeli television in each would be is forbidden on american television because some officials are so blatantly racist. i'm duster and again i do agree is normal also the countries can change but they can only change if there's a will to change israel does not have this well if you look at the popularity of mr netanyahu in israel his popularity is an all time high after he basically softens mr obama about the you know to state solution and norm himself had was kind enough to pass the due to video of israelis are using children young children teaching them hatred discrimination and the law to kill arabs lebanese gazans so

there is no wills are to change out america's encouraging this by allowing it to happen by overriding every single us security council resolution if you go to the jewish virtual library they they gladly and proudly mention how many times the us has vetoed un security council resolutions so there can be no change when there's no will and one of the most important factors is israel has a need to expand it because it wants to embrace more and more people at the moment you know we were talking talks may go somewhere but the children of gaza the people of gaza are walking in sewage to go to school if there's a school to be found because there's no fuel why is there no fuel in one thousand nine hundred nine there was no massive amounts of gas in gaza british gas was going to explore israel put a stop to it sharon said i will never buy gas from gaza they want to own it they

want to own the water in the region because thus if you expand and you have land people need water you make import fuel but you can't do it with water so they wanted to get water from turkey and in order to do it that iraq and syria has to be eliminated so there's no stop to this and their own as you say you hear things on israeli television and you don't hear in america and america sanitizes ever. thing the american people continue to hear from their officials that israel is our democratic ally in the region that is so false it is not an ally is costing america so much money it's bankrupted america fiscally morally and politically and it's not an ally it's if it's just destroying the countries around and it's destroyed america's standing in the world and the people of america need to be informed he says nobody is talking about what's happening in gaza in west fact what israel is doing we're talking about all other things here in america there's a deliberate attempt to keep the people ignorant god forbid the americans should

stand up and say i don't want my money to go to people who committing heinous crimes borderline genocide and i can't eat here i'm hopeless but i'm contributing not only to the people of israel that are there at the moment but anybody who wishes to come with us from africa whether it's from asia they can everybody can go there and my tax dollars will fund them this is what americans don't know and it's it's about time that the other media started concentrating on this but then of course the media goes well we know who the ownerships are norman you know convinced me that netanyahu is going to pull a new company goes to china. try to convince me. peter i think there is a misunderstanding here and i'm doing my best to try to clarify it number one just let me get back to the point that was just made ok of course i agree that israel

unless it's forced to won't change the african-american. frederick douglass he famously said power never concedes anything without a demand never has it never will so of course pressure has to be applied to israel in order to get the two to act in accordance with international law i have no doubt about that that's why i said it has to be a mass movement from below it has to be nonviolent and there has to be a lot of international popular public opinion support to get israel to budge so on that point there is no disagreement between any of us now on the question of not in yahoo you have to remember that israel if there were an academy award for best dramatic performance by a country israel would win every year it's real it is a theater and not to know who of course not to know who is the star of the theater

so i said a few moments ago that we have to distinguish between israel's rhetorical position and its actual position now sippy livni who was the foreign minister in two thousand and eight she's repeatedly said that the wall israel is building the wall is our final border israel wants about ten percent of the west bank which includes some of the most orrible land it includes the critical border resources it includes east jerusalem and very sickly it tries sext the west bank leaving the palestinians a bad. so effectively they want ten percent of the west bank but not ten yahoo star of the show he pretends that israel wants all of the west bank and then jury in the go shiori sions the claim will be that israel is making

a heart wrenching concession as it gives up ninety percent of the west bank but by giving up ninety percent of the west bank is will then get to keep all it really once exactly as sippy livni keep saying the wall is our final border israel wouldn't be investing billions and billions of dollars into building this wall if it wanted territory beyond the wall ok if i go back to irvine you know i mean i and i had a hard time doing if not if god had the head to head. jumping out of so it's not just the wall and the west bank and gaza they're in lebanon now or syria actually because it's syria golan's there is they're drilling gaster they're taking somebody else's gas and oil they're not content i mean it's it would be enormous far too

bright and far too well informed to be naive enough to take the words of an israeli leader when it comes to their expansion and their expansionist policies they are never content they are always asking for more and it's and this for some bizarre will not for some bizarre reason the united states always gives in to them it's become this they've become like the monster of frankenstein i mean the united states made israel to what it is today with all that support and now it is israel the monster the turns around to dr frankenstein and says obey me and america's obeying and nothing will change unless the mentality yes i'm one hundred percent with with norm that we need grassroots movement but there will be no grassroots movement when people are ignored when people are misinformed deliberately this is censorship one thinks the censorship is is just cutting out news but it's

misinformation as well and americans are not being a chance given a chance to learn what's going on normally even in universities you know this you cannot discuss israel in universal right i'm not alone that's very critical sorry we've run out of time many thanks my guess and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.g.p. next time remember cross talking. with you. jamie diamond if a guy is begging to be euthanized and i think as a country as

a world we should get together and answer his wish he wants to become one with his maker he says look i broke the law please arrest me i want to go to jail and be abused by hundreds of thousands of inmates and some on godly way that's my goal in life i'm tired of being free put me in prison i beg you so he breaks more and more laws but unfortunately the law breaking becomes the basis of the g.d.p. for a country of qatar so like america and they can't put him in jail because they need him out there breaking the law so they can pay themselves huge bonuses at the end of the year so if he's really is an existential crisis. the beginning of the. monks in the face is from my life. now enough temptation. to douglas last for six months. people. easy to hire a rifle as

a scooter. because the island or so in a spiritual or a new indigenous people but their own those who do choose this frozen life. this is could be right and. if you are. why is the price of gold so high. demand global demand do you think oldest money. know the value of the only place we have to live of the water that we need to survive it's not compared to. gold we're not going to eat we're not going to bathe . we're not going to. well clearly as and is in a desperate economic situation absolutely right what we're running to do is say therefore any kind of economic development from the outside is going to be

a benefit their only purpose is to extract as much money as possible to feed into the global financial system. with part of the geo political economic system that's extremely exploited to. first of all is a question whether mining should even be carried out altogether can it be done in a way which doesn't destroy people's lives resources environment soon will you know those are pretty serious questions mining is not a what a moment problem it's happening in asia in africa and south america in central america in mexico and it's even happening in canada and the united states.

these locals have been consol hammer braving the elements in order to stand on a u.s. oil giant chevron. this comes after a massive hunger strike that returned the world's attention to the place that some have dubbed the gulag of our times. is an undeclared global battlefield in which yemen is just one of the front lines.

as the first stage of syria's chemical disarmament is declared a success as we recap on the diplomatic achievement that prevented a u.s. strike on the war torn country and look at how the civil conflict has transformed during the year. the u.k. government tax lowering drive seems only to be stuffing the wallets of the highest earners may be no reason for those on basic wage to celebrate. julian a certain challenge all the big names from the world of online privacy protection and freedom of information and getting ready to give their talks here in humbug to the thirtieth chaos communications conference.