markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy. look at the global financial headline news. has a report. come to sophie. shevardnadze now few things are more depressing than looking into. their especially when it's out by choice but by circumstance is there a global solution to the poverty maybe not but locally for sure we have.

poverty persist why are the poor poor and the rich richer over half of the world lives on less than two and a half dollars a day children have no chance caught in this cycle below the poverty line what does it take to tackle poverty can a rising tide lifts all boats kind of to empower and encourage we speak to a poverty pioneer who began with faith and a few dollars for. our guest today is the homage you know snuggle peace prize winner the pioneer of micro finance to financial strategy that's lifted millions out of poverty mr yunus first of all let me start by saying that we're really glad to have you on our program today and i'm just going to go ahead and start with a question that all of our viewers are asking so how soon can worst pay back their depth to your bank is there a risk of being indebted for life to raw. for example. in the bank time

period to repay the loan is chosen by the borrower she could paid back in one month you can pay back in the one year six month three months whatever she decides for two years is flexible but the can not conventionally we didn't come in bang most of the borrowers like the animal cycle within a one year in weekly the stallman you pay back your lawn and then you borrow another one and continue to do that. but what happens and it's no question of getting into debt burden but what happens if you cannot pay the housing there's no question of up to her if she said i cannot pay back we didn't fifty two weeks of the one year and i need a few weeks weeks more rescheduling as long as she wants to pay we have no problem we are not here to punish her for the time period we are here to help her so that she can use the money and earn enough money because these are all income generating loan in other words you invest in something which will generate income and you pay

back the bank instantly have some money left for you out of your income so it's time period is not a big concern for us it's up to you and if you say well i thought i'll pay back in six months but then i in the fifth monday found out that i'll need more time than six months you say it and need to schedule it for another whatever number of months you need because after all you're paying back we have no grudge against you or any any other thing we don't want to make any problem for the borrowers we are we're not in a penalty mood for anybody we're not punishing anybody for anything we all to or want to be helpful to them so that these defined it convenient they find it helpful to deal with the bank now i know your organization was eventually created to help people but what happens if you're poor or cannot generate income after borrowing money. sure it's possible big businesses fail for example a borrower took a long to buy a car and she did

a very good with in the beginning month and the third month the car died she cannot pay back anymore so we don't punish her for the death of a cow we consult with her without a group members how best to help her and there was a few once in a long would be very happy to do that so boarders come back and say she wants to take a loan for another car so we give her a fresh loan all rule is never forgiven is not this not written off is still on the books but your main concern now is to pay back the second lawn and then on top of that if you pay a little bit more would you go in the first loan that finally gets so in practice the first loan becomes a long term law it doesn't put everybody on her but the second loan becomes a loan for another year or so so that we tried to solve the problem we did our brains within our rules so the rules should not be to punish or the crimean micro finance bank in itself is a huge institution it is impossible to control all its activities personally surely

it's possible that some bad practices could have a carriage in your bank's operations no. possible in your organization you talk about government you talk about big businesses there are some people who'll make wrong thing bad judgment and so on it happens in government bank also but compared to any other big large nationwide institution i would say. bank is almost free from all those mistakes. in significant number of mistakes happen and we try to rectify it we try to put in a system where you can detect any fault any any problem that arises in the system because the system is computerized so that you can check it right from your head office what's going on in the remote villages in the remote branches we work it all over again live it every single village in bangladesh has access to them invent microcredit program so we have borrowers all around the country we have eight and

a half million borrowers ninety seven percent of them are women they're all connected with our system of saying that. must mention that the bank is all by the board or so burrill lost somebody outsiders she is in control she's the boardroom and she's the owner in the sense that the president did it to sit in the board seats or whoever would make a decision is actually her represent did it on and like a body like her so it's not something that some big banks or somebody came in give you a long and they don't know you you don't know the mystery of like there is a family kind of thing it's eight and a half million women it's family so we worked it as a kind of a organization to be with them and for them. but here it would problems arise that was reported recently that grammy model in south india has in recent years been distorted by venture capitalism profit makers will of families may face

debt spiral forceful debt collections which in some occasions have let to suicide are you aware of this. yes one thing i want to correct it is not the grameen model if it is a grammy model it will not go into leasing i p o and so on so what we are not in that business we are not here to make money out or activity so they deviated from the government given model that's where all the problems took place they wanted to make it a money making enterprise for shareholders so they want to excite people saying if you lend money to the poor people you can make a lot of money out of it i said that's entirely the opposite of gumming bank system government system is to help poor people poor women particularly to change their life and nobody is trying to make money out of them those who want to make money out of them by misusing them in concept they turn the whole thing into law and shirking direction and we are of course to loan sharking and that's how we were

born opposing loan sharks so we don't want microcredit or grameen bank to be used to become law that's why we condemned it and we said the second talley's wrong thing they should not even use the word microcredit for themselves let alone i mean bank microcredit so you're saying this kind of things don't happen in bangladesh there are no families that have actually been worse off after borrowing money in grameen that before. there are many many microcredit programs including grameen bank itself none of them is devoted to making money for any individual person eighty collection of shareholders it's all dedicated to serve the people as i said in giving back it so it's owned by the giving them boogers in other instances n.g.o.s it's a question of making money from the people doesn't arise. those kind of deviation didn't take place it took place in india and on the top of this the one that you are mentioning and we have condemned it very heavily we wrote about it we made

press statement. about a similar thing happened in america particularly in mexico through. one of the district issues there rican them there too and they also wanted to make i.p.o. and get people businesspeople excited that you can invest in mexico didn't make a lot of money out of the poor people which is a totally totally wrong message now bangladesh prime minister she has seen a dismissed you from crimean bank in two thousand and ten citing that you were older then demanded her retirement age of sixty personal how painful was his decision for you and did you retain some of the homes and. retirement. it is very painful because it was done in a kind of inconsiderate way because we were not taken as

a government bank government applied the government bends rule on to grameen bank saying that you are not following the government bank's rule of the term and we said this is a bank owned by poor women we have our own rules our old law allows that so this distinction about the age limit doesn't apply to giving bank board is very clear to men but in any case. i was asked to resign so i resigned and came out of it but that doesn't mean the whole grameen bank subtly became a foreigner to me this is part of my life it's part of me he's part of my family so i feel i belong to the government bank family were there and i'm in a position of decision making or executive position or i'm not but this is my baby and i work together of people who work there is a part of my team but we always work together since is the very day he was born when he was a little infant we not cheerlead in helping to grow any grown nationwide than

a grammy now i did his a spread all over the world i still go around do that in that position has not change the relationship or structure so you're somewhat of a senior consultant to the bank now without really having a real power in meddling in its affairs right. well i will not sit this word sounds very calm but she just might just go to commercial relationship and i would just a friend i would say i'm a friend and i still thought of feel part of the team no i don't hold the position we did that back but that doesn't mean my view is that he didn't give it back because they look up to me because they know that. the c.g. single but the bank builds a piece by piece so they look up to me for guidance temperature break now we'll be right back when the most terrible homage here is to ask a little bit more about what happened when i mean bank why would he run for president obama and wants to feature of micro finance globally and then go away.

crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want. with the pledge play was terrible they are legendary hard to take on to let alone to get along here is a club that never had sex with others make their lives let alone. limit the amount

. of. absolutely sixty percent of your ports came from illegal fishing. the european union is ironically taking fish from some of the poorest nations on earth so this is a very serious and very urgent problem that needs immediate international action. territorial waters they fish they load the fish on to the ships and leave for europe. to do illegal fishing you're taking the bread out of our mouths.

right. and i think. welcome back we're talking to muhammad yunus to man behind the idea of micro finance and the founder of gram main banking bangladesh good to have you back so just to talk a little bit more about what happened and grab me a bag and you promise i have seen a way to split the bank into nineteen groups here rejected that idea which probably

also played a part in your downfall on top of that bangladesh government has this idea to actually bring to grow i mean barak under the central banks jurisdiction what's wrong with all of that. well this all came for political reasons there's no concrete issue about that i mean by dividing up the splitting of grameen bank in one thousand pieces only only to say you destroy the bank if somebody wants to destroy the bank that's the best way to do so cut it up chop it off it's gone so that idea even the government to this is not on they are not in favor of chopping it off they will do something else but in any case behind everything else looks like there is an attempt to control crimean banks and our preview the law that we started out with makes it very clear that it should be guided by its own board board is the ultimate decision making body but the present

government somehow didn't like that so they want to intervene into the activities of crimean banks and that's why all these nineteen pieces and all control mechanism and changing the law amending the law to into the to the bank all these thinking about and this seemed to be not very friendly to the bank itself and any action that is being taken. nobody in the world will see and that is in the interest of the bank of the world people and i'm very worried about it and i tried to draw attention of everybody of the same person that look you have to stop that this is a great a distribution this is being so much good for the people in the particularly poor in families and the poor women in the world that has given so much and parliament to the women in bangladesh and that is becoming a global phenomenon bringing same thing in many many countries almost every single country glued in russia. has microcredit program so today to go back to.

the origin of that whole idea because i mean banks and to harm it it will be totally painful and alex. but among the shia government has launched legal actions against you for overseas tax evasion you were ousted from being boss of grameen bank for working for retirement age finance minister alleges you have wrongly received tax exemptions while chief of a public institution between two thousand and four and eleven a lot of accusations in a very short period of time where are they coming from and why now. no because the government because the government. finds it appropriate for them to do it for political reasons and all the allegations that you have listed again and again been demonstrated we are sent all the information to the public to make sure that they understand it's all baseless there is no ground covered for example the case

of tax evasion. it was decided in the cabinet meeting that my tax information should be examined by the text of qualities in its report should be submitted to the text of the cabinet itself of ministers and they did then they said we've investigated every detail so. you know suspects returns and he did it everything correctly we have no problem with he has not mr a single penny in texas so we have no problem with that. but when it was not satisfied with the people they sent it back again to make more of what is to say if they can find something else so this is the kind of thing you take certainties keep coming back and finally in the final report tech separately says well only only one thing we can say that probably he didn't ask for permission to make this income to speak.

to go to foreign countries and make speeches and accept on our young for that so he needed under government law he needed permission and then our position is it was never a government bank super question of taking permission never rules at our board never felt that there's something that i need permission from the government and then governments itself are saying that since by two thousand i became six sixty or all after their i'm no longer barely. managing director so all the seizing the information that go. to seeking about income tax is after two thousand so far not a government servant according to them that i was not a government servant after two thousand the question of taking permission from the government doesn't erase it all so again it makes no sense so every single one of them to said i trust for a lot of money from grameen bank to my private organization private companies and i

made it very clear to the back to the people in bangladesh that not only i don't have private organization of my or i don't own any single share in any company anywhere so the question of me owning anything doesn't it is because i don't own anything so that's very clear so question of transferring money to buy organization doesn't it and then they said you transferred money to another deming organization yes i did because that was the requirement of the agreement between the between the donor organization and gunmen in the region authority we lose money was involved in that mr x. oldtime who is the development minister he made it pretty clear statement he said no whatever was done was done legitimately there was nothing wrong doing it so he made it clear to do so if you think accuses the base of the base and behind it yes i mean about a sixty year retirement etc it does look like when it does look like that the

government just wants you out of the picture i'm just trying to figure out why are you represent some kind of threat to them. well you can make a speculation sam and the press makes a lot of speculation anybodies and title to speculation but definitely nothing of the thing that has done looks additional to anybody in the world both within bangladesh and outside bengal this many people believe leaders around the world protested against what is happening to them in bed and many people inside the government inside the bangladesh protested even the opposition in bangladesh today . which is a very powerful opposition this it everything this current government is doing to grameen bank if the opposition they come to power they will undo everything they have done because they have done they have done it so wrongly so badly so they will do that nobody is supporting this cause at all but i know that you in the words of the main man who are the owners of germany back i know that you have been an outspoken critic of successive governments in bangladesh not just this particular

government plus like you said you had you have eight point three million borrowers so that also constitutes some political forest on its own right in bangladesh it's a lot of people that said that explanation this is said that probably government sees a political benefit in controlling the banks so that they can get some political mileage again this is a speculation i cannot say whether whether this is true or not but it's a fact that this is an organization which is about one fourth of the total population of bangladesh is we didn't get any bang so we are linked with the one fourth of the population which has one fourth of the voters are included within given banks so definitely politicians could look into it in that way did today prevail but again the same logic you might say then government should be be friending grameen bank with them confronting grameen bank so it is that doesn't

make sense why did it he did all those people who are in germany in bank but taking a read their rights when you take away their rights they won't be your best your friend they will be opposed to you so politically doesn't look like a very same step on the part of the government so people in bangladesh think that you're somewhat of a hero plus you disagree with many of the things these governments were doing why didn't you run for president yourself. well i don't want to be in politics that they did very clearly again and again in two thousand and seven when there is a vacant political. many people in bangladesh try to perceive me to join politics so that down under pressure i said ok i'll join politics and i'll create a political party but we didn't ten weeks i came back and said no i'm not going to join politics and i'm not going to create a political party and since then i never even thought about joining politics or creating a political party of my own and i don't whatever i'm doing is so much important. to

concentrate on that if you get into politics and i'm with this politics is not a very exciting life in terms of. corruption in terms of that we. can environment the politics is i thought this is not the kind of environment that i can work with so i work in a way where i see transparency where i see i feel feel comfortable with it i don't feel that much comfortable in the other side so i wanted to stay with that ok how will the possible demise of grameen bank in bangladesh effect its followers around the world. well first of all i don't think they'll be demise of grameen bank they'll be damages of grameen bank not demand demise of grameen bank i mean many of the very well established organization is very. strong organization financially strong organization institutionally with

a strong organization i don't think anybody can bring demise to it but don't lots of harm in the short term can be done. and then. our job and meaning my job and my colleagues the team that built going to mean back in the bottle of themselves is to go back and fix it make sure that it become not only strong it becomes stronger organization and i'm sure. we will get support from the public will get support global support and i want supporters i want to add my editor said on the world would be proud of us that's a long time we have for today our guess was nobel prize winner and pioneer of microfinance bangladesh economist behind the kenya's thank you for watching and cheering for the next edition of sophie incredible.

if you nothing and you've got no opportunity. to start to construct your current. do you know little to be bit gives don't want to be gangstas in a lot of. it only then will we know the time that the king came to be we can see. you just meet the boat as i was and i was in the hood and what if you kill somebody with the wrong clue. what it felt like. i said. i don't want to die i just really do not want to die young young.

choose your language. because we know if. someone. chooses to use the consensus you could. choose to get the news that you think are great to. choose the stories that impact your. choose the access to. i know c.n.n. the m s n b c news have taken some slightly but the fact is i admire their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be. true. that was funny but it's closer to the truth and might think. it's because one whole attention and the mainstream media works side by side the

joke is actually on here because the coming up. at our teen years we have a different pretty. good because the news of the world just is not this funny i'm not laughing dammit i'm not going. to get a sense of the jokes that will handle the stuff that i've got to. talk about language as well but i will only react to situations i have read the reports but i'm likely to put the no i will be next mistake to comment on your latter point completely safe. secure you have a car it's all your job you know. thank you no more weasel words. when you made a direct question be prepared for

a change when you find you should be ready for a. freedom of speech means little down to to freedom. right. and i think. foreigners. can still. be.

held in orthodox communities around the world christmas we report from outside russia. the. president calls on the. rebel. forces for full was sold on the extremist. developing story. for the first time as the country seeks cash independence look at the debate by the decision. britain's prime minister toughened up the rhetoric on immigration but too little too late say his critics they. looking for.