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a report on our. hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered on peter lavelle not one about western media and politicians told us al qaeda was defeated or at the very least on its last legs the same media and politicians today tell us a very different story al qaeda is very much alive and fighting indeed across many countries of the middle east al qaeda is portrayed as a deadly menace and this edition of we ask what is al qaeda today who supports it and who benefits from it. to cross-talk al qaeda and similar groups i'm joined by my guest daniel make adams

in washington he is the executive director of the ron paul institute and in tel aviv we cross to he is the director of the terrorism project at the institute for national security studies of tel aviv university all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it daniel if i go to you first in washington very simple question what is al qaeda today because not too long ago we were told that you know on its last legs it's you know small groups but nothing to be too concerned with and now you can pick up a newspaper or not read about al qaeda. it's tempting to view al qaeda as a kind of a manual goldstein you know from one thousand nine hundred four that is everywhere and anywhere you know it's and it's harder to not feel that way look in in syria groups that have been affiliated with al qaeda are benefiting from u.s. support and saudi support a great allies saudi arabia and the next door in iraq the so so-called al-qaeda has made a comeback and is now you know threatening on bar province so it is

a good question what what is al-qaeda is that al-qaeda in in somalia where you have small regional conflicts you know groups with no with no desire for a global jihad it seems to be a pretty convenient term that doesn't mean it doesn't exist but it certainly seems to be overused jarome in tel aviv would you like to reply to that i mean it is a term used very very often you almost want to get to the point where it's just a kind of a franchise. since a typical since its inception in one thousand eight hundred eight i think that we don't have to look for new new the phoenicians is one of the crowd sometimes referred. to this and this is a group within its own very person you spoke of the now look the pakistan area and there are other groups that are closely cooperating with al qaeda and basically go to the french as formal carcassonne these are for groups

al-qaeda in iraq and the islamic maghreb who just recently since. two thousand and twelve also was above all the others are supporters of the feeling who are closely connected to al qaeda but have not merged with al-qaeda this is the phenomenon of cards and power for power because in many other affiliates ok daniel i think one of the interesting things the difference in looking at al qaeda in two thousand and fourteen is it before it was they attempt to discredit. damage the west when we're looking at the original al qaeda the bin laden al qaeda but if we look at countries like egypt syria iraq iran even lebanon they all have their own dealings real or imagined dealing with al-qaeda i mean we can look at the egyptians and saying that this is the reason for a crackdown on any kind of civil liberties and political activism is because there is al qaeda in the sinai. it's like

a mcdonald's franchise you know what's interesting is mike show you were last month in december wrote an article that drove a lot of neo cons crazy for some of the things he said you know he was the head of the of bin laden unit at the cia and he he makes the point that there is no it is making gains worldwide but his question is why on earth is u.s. policy any everywhere in the world it seems designed to to increase. graphs to to expand them you know look in the in egypt u.s. intervention had led to a. weapons flowing everywhere look in libya the us invasion of libya weapons went to syria everywhere from syria to nigeria so if there is this dangerous threatening al qaida why does the u.s. seem to be doing its bidding everywhere in the world you know in tel aviv would you like to respond to that to me because you know if you look at syria i mean obama and his people give still say assad must go i mean the house is on fire but assad

must go when you look at the gains that al-qaeda and similar groups of made in syria there are still wanting to see the end of a secular leader in syria. let me stick to my question of what is ok that in syria have two principal groups one of them is in iraq and in the shah and the other one is dropped in mosul just happened most are. in iraq and both are connected to al qaeda closely connected to al qaeda basically al qaeda in iraq is a part of al qaeda and has been most recently announced and basically got the blessing from over here the to be part of either although although it was not officially announced in the i would say legal way so you have these two groups in c. a closely connected to al qaeda in egypt there and cervical markers which is the

most prominent group operating in the sinai recently also in iraq in egypt itself is not part of al qaeda but an affiliate so when you call every organization that these affiliated or have any. close affiliation with al qaeda al qaeda you enhance the image and the power the image the power image of folk either that's i think one of the mystics ok ok let's say with that daniel a bit lot of governments would like to say that when you look at the the prime minister of iraq he's saying you know it's al qaeda all over the place he wants more weapons he wants more money no one likes to talk about it too much in western media but he has caused al qaeda to come to iraq as you know what before saddam there was no al qaeda there. you know who's who's to blame for the new york who talked and lied us into going into iraq they claimed we would go in there and

democracy would break out all over the place and now of course is screaming that we need to go back there screaming that it's all obama's fault for pulling out in two thousand and eleven that doesn't make sense at all because if if the us action in iraq was supposed to create a democratic paradise or even something better than it was under saddam hussein why now is the whole place falling apart and we have to go back it doesn't make any sense even by their own measurement even by their own prescriptions the entire thing is failed and of course. it's ironic that. is back in in in in on bar that is the the great myth of the us invasion of iraq was that this surge had secured an american victory number one and that this great awakening was the the homegrown fundamentalist groups had risen up and attacked al qaeda and driven them out well neither of those two have lasted very long you know so it's.

it's quite ironic ok on which i to reply to that because if you look at iraq specifically if we can look at so many countries now where the black flag of al qaeda has risen real or imagined and then don't get me wrong i do believe it exists but to the extent that's a little bit different because that's the politics as you see it on the ground but i mean look at iraq here i mean the invasion the occupation this is what's brought it about i mean doesn't western foreign policy create the seeds the seed bed for these kind of groups to come about in the first place. the question of course is what would have happened if the was of any reaction to the presence of al qaeda for example afghanistan the bad old days you cannot you cannot fix things by just looking from a distance i think that the case for example in afghanistan shows the if the united states had not. removed the taliban from power and. run

after al qaeda it wouldn't make things better what happened because the united states went to iraq for different reasons not have anything to do and nothing to do with the fight against those them and basically relieve the pressure from al-qaeda . here but then you have become such that's a fundamental mistake which is don't you agree that was a fundamental mistake because you basically gave oxygen to the al-qaeda fire agree or disagree. certainly when you look back it was a mistake but the reason to go to iraq has nothing to do isto isn't it has to do with maybe false idea of weapons of mass destruction but even if you look at the al qaeda in iraq to be al qaeda has been in iraq since the united states invaded

iraq through which to iraq you took advantage of the presence of the united states now the war shifted more than against it for an occupier but but then secondly that purpose for i agree with you that history but if we look at syria right now again the united states to one degree or another is supporting groups that a take the mantle of al-qaeda and because the united states wants assad to go i mean i just don't get this here ok there's some good al qaeda in there some bad al qaeda. well that's what's funny peter. and i don't like to go ahead like you are i'm speaking answer this one i will go quickly back to dan you go ahead sir go ahead first of all the united states you know the u.s. has been criticized all over the united states and the president is reluctant to be involved in syria in order to avoid inflating the support for al qaeda because of its invasion and he's being criticized i think the united states is very cautious not to interfere personally in the. conflict in syria

and be it there are elements of al qaeda i mentioned two of the groups drop in mosul and i say this both groups when they're regarded as the united states presence so i think we have to also look at the strategy of al qaeda of elites affiliates regardless whether the western powers are involved in this conflict all right gentlemen we're going to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on al qaeda stay with r.t. . i

think that the fact that these weapons can fly semi autonomous leap for seven thousand miles to you know the locations where unfortunately my military and the cia are attacking people in countries with which we are not at war to me is simply horrifying and as many you know already argue it's a violation of international law for its assassination i do not support assassination by my government period. we speak to language. programs in documentaries in arabic it's all here on the. reporting from the world talks about six of the r.p. interviews intriguing story to tell you. the truth. to. visit our big.

it's plenty it was a little i'm very hard to make a play once again a little longer here a plug that had sex with her there's no legs let's play. lists and le mieux lists a bit. of a. cut

. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered on people a bell to remind you we're discussing al-qaeda and similar groups. ok daniel i'd like go back to you in washington you know in considering all we

heard in the first part of the program i agree you know it's easy to be a monday morning quarterback fine ok that's fine but i don't see any lessons being learned if we look at in the aftermath of the illegal occupation of iraq we have al-qaeda and we have a prime minister in that country now begging for the united states that somehow reengage in that country where it was an utter catastrophe for everybody involved i would say and now we look at syria and we look at mali and we look at libya you know i mean where is the leadership here is there any lead learning curve here or is there just another plan involved go ahead daniel. well i think what's happening with u.s. policy over the summer at least is i think there are many of the administration have realized and we've even heard some former and current intelligence and military people come out and say there's been a realisation that assad's enemies are far worse than he is and so now it's trying to walk back wrongheaded policy from the beginning and your other guest said

earlier they would have been there anyway but the reality is the u.s. through the cia has been providing enormous amounts of assistance to these groups we're told that they're going to the moderates this mythical free syrian army that seems to only exist in the minds of the interventionist and in real terms they've been providing support they've been turning a blind eye to saudi arabia spending billions of dollars to prop up groups in syria who are tied with al qaeda if saudi arabia such a great ally and they're doing this and we're worried about al qaeda why doesn't washington tell them to knock it off what about turkey's role in it as well so you have you have a realization i think that's dawning on people here that there is a disaster happening and i think what they're trying to do now is sell another myth to us which is that one group of slightly less radical fundamentalists are now

attacking the i.s.i. yes and taking care of them but we saw in a recent interview in the national which i believe is from dubai where there was an interview with the free syrian army representative who said we're working quite closely with. you know that they have all the guns and they're doing all the fighting when they've gone in and one we take the credit for p.r. reasons so they're really trying to put another scam over us as well you know in the. past in the introduction this program of three questions what is al-qaeda and who supports them and we'll talk about who benefits but who is the major supporter of these groups i mean they have to get money and arms and training from somewhere and then the country that's been named so far in this program is saudi arabia what is their role in all of this. there is support that is being given by the by saudi arabia to elements within the islamic community that is

fighting in syria whether it is going to the new islamic front or whether it's going directly to a. i don't have any intelligence to back it up but this is the information that is being spread on the in the newspaper but we have to pay into consideration the fact that there is a shift of. the. activity of mainly al qaeda affiliates to. regions within the middle east and in africa that. have allowed them to take control of certain areas and provide themselves with finances with a source of money but they would never be able to do they would never be able to do this without the funding from such countries in saudi arabia correct or not. no i don't think so i think that. in mali for example al qaeda affiliates not al qaeda.

with the affection of the partners as well i'm referring to a crybaby slavic maghreb basically with local groups took control of parts of money in syria the. success of the islamic front the partners in syria to see is to take control of the territory in northern syria in eastern syria has to do with their own capabilities go with defiance in the backing of so in full capacity i think it's a little bit. misinterpretation of reality i don't be fired the fact that saudi arabia from its own reasons without the american backing but with their own reasons is supporting certain elements within the syrian opposition because the saudi

arabian government is preferring now to try to blow. rather ok take care of the future with those groups will operate against saudi arabia it's quite clear ok daniel if i go back you in washington i agree with what we just heard here because you know washington these look they look at these nation states here and they look at supposed geopolitical interests and maybe a little bit of oil is thrown in there but you have the saudis there with a stack of money and it's just all about iran and you know and that's the prism that they see everything through and the united states continues to trip and fall and walk through a minefield in that region because they don't get the same interpretation because they don't understand they don't look at politics that way and their greatest one of their greatest allies in the middle east that's exactly how they think. sure you talk about a learning curve you know and there clearly is none and the irony is the u.s. wants to be this great global empire but this eight hundred pound gorilla but isn't it funny that it's being led by the nose by its so-called allies you have you have

israel and saudi arabia forcing it forcing its hand in the middle east you have france telling it it's got to attack libya and it's got to help them out in mali you know the reality is the u.s. government cannot get foreign policy right they can you know i'm reading this great stephen kinzer did a great book on the dulles brothers and i just finished reading it and you go back to the fifty's it was the same thing every one of the cia's covert operations produce unintended consequences the whole history of u.s. covert and overt foreign policy has been a disaster we can't get it right which is one of the reasons we should stop trying to run the world ok the third if i go back to tell of eve you're on the third question i asked in the introduction was who benefits from all of this activity can you list the name of people or organizations or countries that benefits from the spread of this what i would call a disease in the middle east. i'm not sure the states are benefiting from the situation actually i think in the future there will be

a benefit even less. we see for example if we pick syria we see local disputed turn into a regional dispute the turn into or with global impact we see the united states and the soviet union russia slowly looking at the situation each one has its own side to support we see turkey saudi arabia if you wish even israel and other countries that are looking closely at the situation if any of these are itself there is a debate what is better for israel that us and we will follow in the jihad this will prevail or the other way around so i think the situation in syria has potential hazards for many countries and i really can see the situation any country that is enjoying the situation ok daniel maybe i'll give you

my fanciful interpretation of all of this is that i think that there are powers that be particularly in the united states in the think tanks in neo-cons that the more the chaos the better because you know maybe we can get on the right side of the curve you know i mean i find it really fanciful because if you look at it he continues to give them more and more destabilized and you know there's some people that think that the with the u.s. can still control it and i think history has told us over the last decade that doesn't happen you used my favorite term the law of unintended consequences what do you think. well it's the lenin thesis isn't it the worse the better maybe that is true the neo cons do want to remake the world they're the inheritors of trotsky they love global revolution you have you know it's interesting this there's been a big to do here in the us about robert gates his book has come out he was the defense secretary and had a career in the cia and he talks about on the left you have the responsibility to protect crowd and on the right you have the u.s.

leadership crowd all pushing for the u.s. to get involved in every and everything every time there's an oppression somewhere or an aggression somewhere or someone feels unhappy somewhere they want the u.s. military to get involved so it's a sort of an unholy alliance between the interventionist left and the interventionists right and the media is a course obsessed with all the little personality things that gates writes about in the book but the most important and most interesting thing that he talks about is the over militarization of u.s. foreign policy and he says we need to step back and stop thinking that every problem in the world is a job for the u.s. military to deal with and it would be nice if people would take that lesson you know in tel aviv you live in a very dangerous neighborhood what is the best way to deal with al qaeda and al qaeda like groups in your opinion is your neighborhood. i think the. most important principle is to be were of being dragged into the conflict that israel is not involved with the groups of that are affiliated with al qaeda or the

partners of al-qaeda in syria and the affiliate groups in egypt would like very much to drag israel into conflict with egypt and syria is and should keep its. borders closed and safe and do not interfere in any of these attacks and in there is no meaningful tech that is going to be addressed against israel is a should turn to the other country to operate against it and to intercept it and if not to operate back and without being dragged into conflict with the bodum countries that's for israel but i think we have to look at the situation now the global terrorism of the days of bin laden and this was his philosophy turning into what we call of localized. conflicts and these are the really few cation of the what is called the arab spring and i think neither the united states definitely not

should not interfere in this business and lead to the local governments try to deal with it and if there is a need the united states to support the countries in their fight against al qaeda and not do the job for them and not sending any military intervention to abuse countries well that'll be a hard habit to break here and we've run out of time gentlemen many thanks to me to my guests in washington and in tel aviv and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember across town. at least one. previously peacekeepers were present our concerns with monitoring peace deals going

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top diplomats from the united states and russia meet in a bid to salvage syrian peace talks even as rebel forces turn their fire on each other and in unprecedented turf war. pulling no punches the u.k. looks to claw back some control over its legal system as a european court denies british judges the right to sentence criminals to life without parole. and pay up or move out low income families bear the brunt of washington's overspending as automatic budget cuts force them out of their homes by the millions.